Yeah it could be that - as you can imagine there will be an inquest over it - rightly so.
The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
- Start date
Yeah it could be that - as you can imagine there will be an inquest over it - rightly so.
Unfortunately in the first week after the first dose of the vaccine, the immune response is very weak. You wouldn't expect it to limit the effects of the virus if you get it during that time period, never mind stop you from getting infected.
Phase I/II trial results
They ended up going with the 30-μg dose in the phase 3 trial, so after day 21 it had 2x the RBD-binding IgG concentration than someone who had contracted covid. However after day 7 it has 60-70x fewer of those antibodies, and all of the antibodies you have were already there before you got the vaccination - there's no movement whatsoever in the first week. The neutralising titres are even more delayed, which should be more indicative. And there's a massive jump (10-20x) 7 days after the 2nd dose.
Based on the efficacy data of the phase 3 trial, which was more granular, there wasn't much evidence of a meaningful immune response up until day 14.
France has vaccinated just 516 people as of this weekend. Despite having 500,000 doses. Apparently 6 out of 10 surveyed intend refusing a vaccine when offered. Shocking stuff. Any theories as to why they’re such an outlier?
That's nuts, exceptionally poor but they're the most vaccine sceptic country in Europe.
It was noted before the pandemic that France has one of the lowest confidence levels in vaccination programmes in Western Europe. I'm pretty sure I've seen some data on it, I'll try to dig it out later this afternoon.
I’m mainly curious as to why they’re so sceptical? Maybe need to check with someone French?
@JPRouve
Israel has apparently vaccinated 1.8 million, which is brilliant progress even compared to western countries.
I don't know. As I said in an other thread I don't know a single person that would be in that category. And vaccinations have only actually started this weekend and it was supposed to start yesterday for care homes.
Got my first jab this morning with my second dose booked for 16th March. It was a solid 7 out of 10 on the OUCH scale.
Australian PM vows not to 'cut corners... like UK'
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has vowed not to take "unnecessary risks" in rolling out its vaccination programme - and suggested that the UK has.
The Australian government is aiming to give the first vaccine doses by the end of March, despite once boasting Australia would be "at the front of the queue" for any vaccine.
But Morrison is defending the timetable, saying the world's hardest-hit countries, such as the UK, are rushing the process.
"Australia is not in an emergency situation like the United Kingdom. So we don't have to cut corners. We don't have to take unnecessary risks," he told local radio 3AW.
The UK is "in the very early phases" of the vaccine rollout and "they've had quite a few problems, and they're doing it on an emergency basis", he added.
He went on to incorrectly allege that the UK is not testing batches of doses before they are distributed.
Before a batch can be used by the NHS, it has to be checked and certified by the Medicines and Healthcare Products regulatory Agency. It can be several weeks to make sure it meets quality standards before the vaccine can be given to the NHS to put in people's arms.
Australia has been largely successful in eliminating community transmission but is currently battling to contain small clusters of the disease in Sydney and Melbourne.
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has vowed not to take "unnecessary risks" in rolling out its vaccination programme - and suggested that the UK has.
The Australian government is aiming to give the first vaccine doses by the end of March, despite once boasting Australia would be "at the front of the queue" for any vaccine.
But Morrison is defending the timetable, saying the world's hardest-hit countries, such as the UK, are rushing the process.
"Australia is not in an emergency situation like the United Kingdom. So we don't have to cut corners. We don't have to take unnecessary risks," he told local radio 3AW.
The UK is "in the very early phases" of the vaccine rollout and "they've had quite a few problems, and they're doing it on an emergency basis", he added.
He went on to incorrectly allege that the UK is not testing batches of doses before they are distributed.
Before a batch can be used by the NHS, it has to be checked and certified by the Medicines and Healthcare Products regulatory Agency. It can be several weeks to make sure it meets quality standards before the vaccine can be given to the NHS to put in people's arms.
Australia has been largely successful in eliminating community transmission but is currently battling to contain small clusters of the disease in Sydney and Melbourne.
Load of bollocks from ScoMo. Aus weren’t first in the vaccine queue so trying to spin it as caution.Australian PM vows not to 'cut corners... like UK'
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has vowed not to take "unnecessary risks" in rolling out its vaccination programme - and suggested that the UK has.
The Australian government is aiming to give the first vaccine doses by the end of March, despite once boasting Australia would be "at the front of the queue" for any vaccine.
But Morrison is defending the timetable, saying the world's hardest-hit countries, such as the UK, are rushing the process.
"Australia is not in an emergency situation like the United Kingdom. So we don't have to cut corners. We don't have to take unnecessary risks," he told local radio 3AW.
The UK is "in the very early phases" of the vaccine rollout and "they've had quite a few problems, and they're doing it on an emergency basis", he added.
He went on to incorrectly allege that the UK is not testing batches of doses before they are distributed.
Before a batch can be used by the NHS, it has to be checked and certified by the Medicines and Healthcare Products regulatory Agency. It can be several weeks to make sure it meets quality standards before the vaccine can be given to the NHS to put in people's arms.
Australia has been largely successful in eliminating community transmission but is currently battling to contain small clusters of the disease in Sydney and Melbourne.
When he talks about the “emergency basis” and refers to batches I think he’s alluding to the unusual way in which the MHRA are approving these vaccines. They’re doing batch specific emergency temporary approvals. Which is, theoretically, more restrictive than the more general, longer term approvals the EMA (and presumably Australian regulators) are doing. I’m not sure it makes much of a practical difference, mind you.
A significant part of the population doesn't trust political elites for various reasons such as:
- French Gvt inconsistent from A to Z (for example, saying PPE masks were useless before making it mandatory outside, etc.)
- Historical heritage: revolution, Kings decapitated, protests, dissertation at schools, etc.
- Scandals in the healthcare sector: blood transfusion scandals, etc,
- Mediterranean country: colonisation heritage and geography
The consequences are the:
- Mainstream media more critical to attract audience: generally speaking, a political debate in the UK is relatively consensual compared to the equivalent in France which is much more confrontational, ironical and aggressive.
- Conspiracy theories/alternative thinking are more popular
- Police and fines are needed to enforce the law and lockdown i.e. in other Mediterranean countries like Morocco, the army is required in the streets...
- French Gvt is blamed whatever they do by opposition parties
- Political U-turns are badly perceived
- High abstention from voting
Welcome to France
Last edited:
A significant part of the population doesn't trust political elites for various reasons such as:
- French Gvt inconsistent from A to Z (for example, saying PPE masks were useless before making it mandatory outside, etc.)
- Historical heritage: revolution, Kings decapitated, protests, dissertation at schools, etc.
- Scandals in the healthcare sector: blood transfusion scandals, etc,
- Mediterranean country: colonisation heritage and geography
The consequences are the:
- Mainstream media more critical to attract audience: generally speaking, a political debate in the UK is relatively consensual compared to the equivalent in France which is much more confrontational, ironical and aggressive.
- Conspiracy theories/alternative thinking are more popular
- Police and fines are needed to enforce the law and lockdown i.e. in other Mediterranean countries like Morocco, the army is required in the streets...
- French Gvt is blamed whatever they do by opposition parties
- Political U-turns are badly perceived
- High abstention from voting
Welcome to France
My parents live down in the Var now, and don't understand why everyone is so reluctant. If they could, they'd go and get jabbed tomorrow. They tell me the process is also fairly long-winded - pre-vaccination counselling, and a detailed consent form, before you get jabbed (totally open to the idea that this isn't fully correct - I think my dad discovered YouTube last year).
Your parents are right about the long-winded process which is explained by different reasons.
First, due to a high number of legal actions taken against members of the Gvt with respect to Covid 19, the Gvt needs to ensure all the necessary legal precautions are taken, which means: withdrawal period, some papers to sign, etc.
https://www.france24.com/en/2020061...s-covid-19-victims-take-french-state-to-court
The second reason is more about public management style: top decision-makers are mainly made of strategists, bureaucrats and technocrats. These decision-makers largely despise and underestimate the role of logistics in public policy. If you go to war and have a good plan: good, but if the soldiers starve and don't benefit from adequate support facilities, you won't go very far. Applied to the vaccination campaign, it means there will be a waste of vaccines because the process is overly decentralised. Process very decentralised because GPs have been placed at the heart of the process because they are supposed to be the best people to promote the vaccine. For the anecdote, each GP gets a bonus of 5.40 euro for each person vaccinated: typical false good idea that fuels discontent.
The country is really capable to get a lot of people vaccinated quickly as observed for the flu vaccine recently, but very slow because of red tape and poor logistics Covid-wise
Last edited:
I am sure that the list of eligible people will be quickly expanded.
Israel has struggled with many aspects of the coronavirus crisis with botched lockdowns, political dysfunction and protests. But on the two escape routes - vaccines and testing - they have had remarkable success, writes Sky’s Middle East correspondent Mark Stone.
On vaccines, a staggering 1.37 million people have already been vaccinated. In a country of just under nine million, it has become the world leader in vaccinations.
The Pfizer vaccine is the only one being used at the moment but the Moderna jab was approved for use today.
A combination of factors has led to the success: the country is small, no-one is far from a vaccination centre, and it has an impressive and centralised health system with three not-for-profit NHS-like providers competing for government money
The military has been involved in the logistics and the authorities have even been offering the jabs to younger people if unused stock is available at the end of each day
On vaccines, a staggering 1.37 million people have already been vaccinated. In a country of just under nine million, it has become the world leader in vaccinations.
The Pfizer vaccine is the only one being used at the moment but the Moderna jab was approved for use today.
A combination of factors has led to the success: the country is small, no-one is far from a vaccination centre, and it has an impressive and centralised health system with three not-for-profit NHS-like providers competing for government money
The military has been involved in the logistics and the authorities have even been offering the jabs to younger people if unused stock is available at the end of each day
Provided they can approve the batches quickly enough that it doesn't hold back the roll-out, there's no issue here. Batch-testing for now seems very sensible. I do wonder at what point they would have enough data for a general approval.
Great progress by them, unfortunately soured by the fact they've excluded Palestinians from receiving the jabs, even opting to give them to the illegal settlers:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-covid-vaccine-rollout-as-jabs-go-to-settlers
So since I guess people will have questions about France, the vaccination campaign is supposed to be tiered, not everyone has access to it. Today only care home residents, care home workers, health care workers and firefighters can be vaccinated. Before the end of January, people older than 75 years old and living at home will have access to it, after that it should be people older than 65 years old , then the 50-64 and from mid-June the rest of the population.
The irony of ironies being all Israelis are infected by 5G Bill Gates virus after all and the Palestinians watch them all melt away.
The Palestinian Authority is the sole civil authority for around 97% of the Palestinian population of the West Bank, and as the article mentions, they haven’t requested help or coordination from Israel. And according to this, they may not have the infrastructure to store the Pfizer vaccine anyway.
I’d be interested to know if Israel is denying the vaccine to the 3% under Israel civil authority?
@Tony Babangida This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the different approaches of the regulators in the Uk vs EU (and Aus). It’s why your PM was waffling about batches.
#scottyfrommarketing is so full of shit. Emergency certification is pointless when you were so slow off the mark that the vaccines won't be delivered early enough in significant enough numbers to make it necessary.
I get the Uk approach to do the most at risk in rapid time with one dose, then slowly open things up whist doing categories further down the list, it seems like a good plan.
This is around 13 million people or so,, but I wonder what the plan is for those who refuse it, which at 80 % uptake could be just short of 3 million people, it's a lot of people in the most at risk categories to be left exposed to infection, whilst a large part of the population are still spreading it.
Also are they asking people before appointments are made if they're taking it or not, or just hoping they turn up?
This is around 13 million people or so,, but I wonder what the plan is for those who refuse it, which at 80 % uptake could be just short of 3 million people, it's a lot of people in the most at risk categories to be left exposed to infection, whilst a large part of the population are still spreading it.
Also are they asking people before appointments are made if they're taking it or not, or just hoping they turn up?
Presumably they will just skip over them and move on to the next in line. If the idea is to get to herd immunity then you could argue that the most vulnerable people aren’t the best to target for that strategy anyway as they’re generally the least mobile and come into contact with the least number of people so as long as the vaccine goes to someone else then you could argue that they are only hurting themselves.
If the percentage of the population that required vaccination to achieve an effective level of herd immunity was higher than the percentage of people willing to take the vaccine then we would have a problem and as far as I’m concerned it would only be a problem for the people that genuinely cannot receive a vaccine. Those who refuse it out of ignorance I have little sympathy for.
So apparently 20k people in England have had their second dose already. Are the people rolling out the Pfizer vaccines just ignoring the 12 week thing?
I think they have decided that it's too much of a hassle to now change appointments for people who had already been given a vaccine . People who are getting it now are being given a 12 week appointment
My Mum, who works for the NHS, had her first dose Tuesday and was told the second would be in three weeks. She works with and assesses elderly mentally ill (EMI) patients so maybe it’s more a case of protecting them rather than her.
The leader of Birmingham City Council has warned the city "has not yet been supplied with any AstraZeneca stock, while current Pfizer stocks are scheduled to run out on Friday".
Co-signed by local Labour and Tory MPs, it calls for the government to publish figures showing how many citizens have received the jab in each parliamentary constituency to ensure fairness.
The plea to Health Secretary Matt Hancock also calls for data on take-up and refusals, to highlight any areas where resistance to vaccination needs to be addressed, as well as a list of all organisations delivering vaccines in Birmingham.
The letter notes: "It remains unclear who is responsible for overseeing the vaccination programme in Birmingham and whom we should hold to account for progress and delivery."
Co-signed by local Labour and Tory MPs, it calls for the government to publish figures showing how many citizens have received the jab in each parliamentary constituency to ensure fairness.
The plea to Health Secretary Matt Hancock also calls for data on take-up and refusals, to highlight any areas where resistance to vaccination needs to be addressed, as well as a list of all organisations delivering vaccines in Birmingham.
The letter notes: "It remains unclear who is responsible for overseeing the vaccination programme in Birmingham and whom we should hold to account for progress and delivery."
My grandma who had her first Pfizer jab just before Christmas has just had hers cancelled today. The doctor surgery mentioned that they didn't want to have to cancel but just can't get hold of any more of the Pfizer vaccines. Just annoying.
I think this is good and right provided AZ can keep the wider vaccine rollout going, I just wonder if there's been any communication from above that this should happen with Pfizer stock, or if clinical staff are just making their own call.
I know of one member of care home staff in Lancashire that was vaccinated today, others declined, so the vaccinated were invited to bring relatives in rather than waste what was left, and several went down straight away to be done. Makes sense.
Doesn’t look like it, no.
From the Grauniad:
The speed at which they’re doing this is incredible. I’d love to know how it’s being achieved. Is it just a case of throwing a shit-load of money at the problem? If so, surely the cost-benefit means the same approach would work elsewhere?
I don't think giving the vaccine will be the bottleneck anywhere in about 2-3 weeks. It will be the lack of doses.
In an ideal world no country would be getting doses to vaccinate people under 50, before people over 60 are vaccinated everywhere, imo.
The priority distribution age should in my opinion centre around which age demographic are dominanting the ICU wards, because ICU capacity is ultimately going to dictate how long restrictions are here for.
Agreed. Lack of supply will very soon be the bottleneck everywhere. Moderna seem to be really struggling to meet their commitments.
But you have to admire how quickly the Israelis are using up the stock they do have. I’m sure their over 60s will be all vaccinated long before U50s get their dose (HCPs excluded)