The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Brwned]

Incompetence and stupidity?

At the end of the day I think if we were to remove science from the process and make this purely a political decision, there would be popular demand for doing whatever we can to vaccinate as many people as possible as quickly as possible. So I don't think it's an entirely stupid thing to do if that is your main priority.

All previous mentions of being "led by the science" were obviously polluted by political involvement and that was understood and accepted; the restrictions were part-science, part-politics, part-panic and whatever else. In most cases we didn't have enough time to let the science lead, urgent actions were required at a speed that science can't deliver against. I just didn't expect the vaccination process to be tainted in the same way. It was led by the science until approval came in, and then we decided there's a bit of wiggle room here and there.

 

[BD]

Seems a bit mad to be playing around with the dosages of the vaccines. Has something similar been done before?

 

[LARulz]

But can someone please update me on the number of doses we actually have?

Hancock and co were all going on about getting this done soon and getting millions vaccinated a week at the start of the year. Then yesterday in the commons he admitted they have 'half a million of the Oxford vaccine for the start of next week and millions to come in Feb'. Does this mean we only have that few till Feb or that they are going to have significantly more next week but that's just how much they had as more is being delivered?

 

[jojojo]

Should the government start indicating to the general public that vaccination is voluntary but treatment, should they catch CV, will be weighted against them if hospitals are busy?

Or is this too Draconian?

You can't really. Too many things are (at least partially) down to individual choices, whether that's overeating, drugtaking, or driving your car on ice.

To go further on the vaccinations, and people hesitating or even outright rejecting them - we have to understand the motives behind that hesitation/rejection. One of the recent UK demographic surveys suggested that it's the poor, the city dwellers (Londoners in particular) and the BAME community who are most likely to turn the vaccine down. The health prioritisation has to be based on encouraging takeup, not threatening people who are already nervous - particularly if it works as a kind of additional systemic discrimination.

https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/ne...groups-less-likely-to-want-covid-vaccine.html
However, of particular concern were findings that 57% of respondents from Black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) backgrounds (199 respondents) were likely to accept a COVID-19 vaccine, compared to 79% of White respondents. Confidence was lowest among respondents of Asian ethnicity, of whom 55% were likely to say yes.

Fortunately in general older adults want the jab and it's the younger ones who don't. So it may not matter too much in terms of the current rollout and hopefully everyone will feel a lot more comfortable once millions of doses are out there. It's also encouraging that GP recommendations might be enough to tip the balance for a lot of people (who aren't convinced by the mass vaccination centre idea)

 

[redshaw]

I'd rather go with Pfizer who made and tested it rather than making up our own dosages.

Where does this stand for liability if side affects appear, if there is any liability, not following the recommended dosage will surely void any?

 

[F-Red]

But can someone please update me on the number of doses we actually have?

You keep asking, the data isn't publicly available so all you're going to get is snippets of interviews. If you listened to yesterday what they have physically available of the AZ vaccine is 500k. They've not gone into detail of what they have for January as I imagine they have to get the production up to capacity to then understand the volume output. AZ are confident of up to 2m per week, which would suggest they need a solid month to get up to speed.

Hancock and co were all going on about getting this done soon and getting millions vaccinated a week at the start of the year. Then yesterday in the commons he admitted they have 'half a million of the Oxford vaccine for the start of next week and millions to come in Feb'. Does this mean we only have that few till Feb or that they are going to have significantly more next week but that's just how much they had as more is being delivered?

They're saying what they think is achievable based on the production run they currently have. With it being Christmas and most businesses working reduced hours, it's difficult to say with any certainty of what they can get. They have Pfizer supplies (which is around 800k people vaccinated now) and an initial batch from AZ. I honestly would factor January as a production month and expect the speed of the vaccination, and the subsequent distribution, to come through February and March.

 

[prateik]

Didn't Pfizers data essentially say they expect a response 7 days after the 2nd shot.. so 28 days after the first ? Or was that Moderna?


How can governments decide to give one shot and wait ..

 

[lynchie]

Agree with this part in particular. I understand the situation has changed and so the priorities have shifted as a result, but some parts of the response shouldn't be shifted. Prioritising AZ over Pfizer because we want to prioritise a less efficacious vaccine over one with a more flexible dosing schedule is very debatable, but I can see the argument for it. Recommending a dosing schedule that can't be properly evaluated and the manufacturer has legitimate concerns about is multple steps beyond that. It raises obvious questions about what is guiding our decisions at this point.

There's also a simple human element to this decision, which is that people who have had dose 1, who are almost by definition the most vulnerable, are having their 2nd dose snatched away, when they were starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. Those people should get what they signed up for.

 

[LARulz]

You keep asking, the data isn't publicly available so all you're going to get is snippets of interviews. If you listened to yesterday what they have physically available of the AZ vaccine is 500k. They've not gone into detail of what they have for January as I imagine they have to get the production up to capacity to then understand the volume output. AZ are confident of up to 2m per week, which would suggest they need a solid month to get up to speed.



They're saying what they think is achievable based on the production run they currently have. With it being Christmas and most businesses working reduced hours, it's difficult to say with any certainty of what they can get. They have Pfizer supplies (which is around 800k people vaccinated now) and an initial batch from AZ. I honestly would factor January as a production month and expect the speed of the vaccination, and the subsequent distribution, to come through February and March.

Thanks. I could have sworn I saw somewhere they said they had 4 million ready by the end of this year which is why when he said that I was shocked. Maybe it will literally be a case of injecting as soon as they are made which would then require a smooth operation which I don't trust this government to do.

 

[F-Red]

Thanks. I could have sworn I saw somewhere they said they had 4 million ready by the end of this year which is why when he said that I was shocked. Maybe it will literally be a case of injecting as soon as they are made which would then require a smooth operation which I don't trust this government to do.

An output of 4m was available if it had got the approvals needed much earlier in December, which in reality was never going to happen. The government are responsible for the policy for England with a lot of the actual operational distribution and logistics of the vaccine by the NHS, devolved administrations will manage Scotland, Wales & NI. When we look at the programme over the coming months we need to be cognisant of the fact that the numbers of production will always be larger than the numbers being distributed/vaccinated due to the staffing requirements needed for a vaccine rollout.

 

[Brwned]

Didn't Pfizers data essentially say they expect a response 7 days after the 2nd shot.. so 28 days after the first ? Or was that Moderna?


How can governments decide to give one shot and wait ..

Pfizer's data showed a good response after day 14, and if you read the data a certain way (i.e. with some reasonable but questionable assumptions), it is almost as effective at day 14 as it is by day 28. Day 14 is when the gap starts to appear between those vaccinated and unvaccinated, and it essentially flatlines from that point onwards. So you can very fairly say that between days 14-21 you are almost fully protected. We just don't know what happens after day 21 because on day 21 everyone got the 2nd shot, and the trendline maintained for another month.

Maybe it would have maintained without the second shot for another month, maybe it would have slightly declined, maybe it would've dropped off a cliff...there's no data to tell you that with any certainty. It just wasn't accounted for. You can look into some other parts of the data and make some inferences - e.g. how did antibody levels vary between days 14-21, how similar is the immune response between this vaccine and AZ's and therefore how likely do we think it is that it will follow a similar pattern between weeks 3-12, etc. - but it's stepping firmly outside the randomised controlled trial data and tight analysis constraints required for approval.

There's also a simple human element to this decision, which is that people who have had dose 1, who are almost by definition the most vulnerable, are having their 2nd dose snatched away, when they were starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. Those people should get what they signed up for.

True, hadn't thought about that. Not adequately protecting those people when it's within our power to do so would raise a lot of difficult questions.

 

[Tibs]

China have approved one of their vaccines (Sinopharm), it is 79% effective.

It was trialled outside of China

 

[Stacks]

So none of these vaccines have been approved for use in children. With kids getting such a mild illness the risk benefit of injecting them with novel vaccines just doesn’t add up. Hancock specifically stated today that there are no plans to vaccinate children in the UK. I can see them running trials in adolescents at some point but younger kids might never be vaccinated.

So what does this mean for the zero covid countries like Aus/NZ? Will they be vaccinating children? Will they be asking unvaccinated children of tourists to quarantine for the foreseeable future?

Or is the plan to vaccinate all the Aus/NZ adults then let the virus into the country to spread naturally through the children?

@Wibble
@Stacks

I am also confused. What about people who are immunosurpressed and cannot take vaccines? Children can potentially spread it to them if they are not vaccinated. Also will children be subject to restrictions for travel?

 

[Lennon7]

I am also confused. What about people who are immunosurpressed and cannot take vaccines? Children can potentially spread it to them if they are not vaccinated. Also will children be subject to restrictions for travel?

That’d be a problem even if they vaccinated the kids. You not seen these nutty conspiracists?

 

[jojojo]

A not surprising reaction to the Pfizer dose 2 delay briefing from one of the hospital staff who got dose 1.

 

[bsCallout]

This could really damage public confidence and just fuels the conspiracy theorists more.

 

[4bars]

there’s a part of me that agrees. But then you could expand that thinking to people who smoke, drink or are fat. All social issues.

I’m sure there will need to be some sore of anti-discrimination law at some point for vaccinations.

for example would you employ a care assistant in a nursing home who refuses to be vaccinated?

I don't consider it comparable.
- You pay taxes on smoke and drink for that purpose already
- They give you a short term solution for free and you don't accept it because of Bullshit believes. 2 jabs and thats it. The other are some long term and addiction related problems.
- Is not only an economic problem on their treatment, is that they endanger the life of others and the economy of the entire country (and world). It might be true with smoking and drink too but again there are systems in place (none smoking areas, economical and prison punishment for driving while drunk)

Also, true, is not black and white. But something must be done. Don't allow them to catch public transportation, trains, planes, , ferries, taxis, etc...for obvious reasons. Any place like hotels, clubs, restaurants, schools, universities or other public spaces. That would be for obvious reasons. If you don't allow to smoke in those spaces, I don't know why you should allow people that jeoparidize by their own decision to not take the vaccine

 

[NinjaFletch]

This could really damage public confidence and just fuels the conspiracy theorists more.

Yep. Needed to be immaculate, but of course the stupid cnuts in charge had to be stupid cnuts once more.

And of course nothing on the BBC even though they gave Blair airtime to advocate for this bollocks.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A not surprising reaction to the Pfizer dose 2 delay briefing from one of the hospital staff who got dose 1.

Even if (and it’s a big ‘if’) there’s a solid scientific (or even economic) rationale for this change in the vaccination strategy the damage this will do to the morale of frontline medics makes it an absurd decision. They’ve been going through hell for a year now and the vaccine has been the light at the end of a very long tunnel. To add this uncertainty re efficacy at the last minute, right before they enter a monstrous few months at the coal face, is unforgivable.

At the very least, everyone who already got a jab - on the understanding it would be prescribed in accordance with the license - should get the second jab as scheduled. I actually think they have grounds for a class action but that pales into insignificance compared to the damage this is doing to morale when it is most needed.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[sammsky1]

 

[F-Red]

Chief medical officers along with The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have made the call on extending the second dose. I doubt they would be making this call without the detail to back up their decision.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...itisation-of-first-doses-of-covid-19-vaccines

 

[Balljy]

As much as it came across as a publicity stunt, if AZ really have committed to selling to developing countries at cost price that's where the Oxford vaccine (plus the Russian, Chinese ones if cheap enough) can help. Pfizer and Moderna aren't really as well suited to countries without streamlined medical care anyway.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Chief medical officers along with The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have made the call on extending the second dose. I doubt they would be making this call without the detail to back up their decision.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...itisation-of-first-doses-of-covid-19-vaccines

They’re pretty open about the rationale. Get at least one dose into as many people as possible, as quick as possible. And it does make sense. I still think they shouldn’t be moving the goalposts for the frontline workers after they got the first dose. If nothing else, it makes a mockery of informed consent.

 

[F-Red]

They’re pretty open about the rationale. Get at least one dose into as many people as possible, as quick as possible. And it does make sense. I still think they shouldn’t be moving the goalposts for the frontline workers after they got the first dose. If nothing else, it makes a mockery of informed consent.

I can see the argument, however everything I've read from GP's today is about the logistical headache an inconvenience of rescheduling appointments, and nothing about a vaccine discussion whether the efficacy is worse by having the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine on week 11 after the first dose instead of week 3. Even one dose is substantially better than no dose at this stage.

 

[Skills]

Tbh what they're doing seems to be quite rational based on experience from other vaccines too.

The issue with the dosing for these vaccines is, they were desperately trying to find the shortest interval between jabs rather than the longest. The reason for that being that the vaccine development was a race - so once they established that 3 week interval for a booster works, they had no motivation to extend that time period (though I reckon they spent a lot of time checking to see if it worked in a shorter time frame than 3 weeks).

 

[Mickeza]

They’re pretty open about the rationale. Get at least one dose into as many people as possible, as quick as possible. And it does make sense. I still think they shouldn’t be moving the goalposts for the frontline workers after they got the first dose. If nothing else, it makes a mockery of informed consent.

I think it’s the right decision. It’s worth remembering Frontline health workers wouldn’t even have been vaccinated yet if we could move the vaccine. Care home staff and residents are priority group 1. We’ve only vaccinated half of our frontline staff at our hospital sites - why should that half get a second dose before the other half get a first dose? The evidence suggests you get a high level of protection after one dose at least in the short term. We’d love to do two doses but the supply just isn’t there unfortunately at the moment to do that AND make a big enough difference in the short term to workforce availability which we absolutely need over the next few weeks due to admissions being through the roof. You’re right about consent and the communication has been a shit show as usual when decisions are made at such short notice but I think objectively it’s the right call.

 

[711]

I think it’s the right decision. It’s worth remembering Frontline health workers wouldn’t even have been vaccinated yet if we could move the vaccine. Care home staff and residents are priority group 1. We’ve only vaccinated half of our frontline staff at our hospital sites - why should that half get a second dose before the other half get a first dose? The evidence suggests you get a high level of protection after one dose at least in the short term. We’d love to do two doses but the supply just isn’t there unfortunately at the moment to do that AND make a big enough difference in the short term to workforce availability which we absolutely need over the next few weeks due to admissions being through the roof. You’re right about consent and the communication has been a shit show as usual when decisions are made at such short notice but I think objectively it’s the right call.

I suspect they just didn't see the consent question coming. I'm sure lots have things have been missed, not out of badness or incompetence but just because it's all so bleeding complicated and the decision-makers have been working flat out for months.

As for care homes being the highest priority, you're right to highlight that. Loads haven't had any vaccination at all, meanwhile grossly underpaid carers and cleaners are travelling from one to another for a few hours work at each as the employers, private and public, won't offer enough hours to reach the national insurance threshold. One infected cleaner can pass it on to three homes quite easily.

 

[Tibs]

This will play into the hands of anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists and covid-denying nutters.

It would have been better to stick to what has been tested - but I suppose it's a sign of the carnage they believe we're walking into over the next month.

 

[jojojo]

I think it’s the right decision. It’s worth remembering Frontline health workers wouldn’t even have been vaccinated yet if we could move the vaccine. Care home staff and residents are priority group 1. We’ve only vaccinated half of our frontline staff at our hospital sites - why should that half get a second dose before the other half get a first dose? The evidence suggests you get a high level of protection after one dose at least in the short term. We’d love to do two doses but the supply just isn’t there unfortunately at the moment to do that AND make a big enough difference in the short term to workforce availability which we absolutely need over the next few weeks due to admissions being through the roof. You’re right about consent and the communication has been a shit show as usual when decisions are made at such short notice but I think objectively it’s the right call.

I think it's being done with the best intentions and quite probably with a lot of good scientific and epidemiological reasoning. It's the decision, as it applies to the current Pfizer dose 1 (already scheduled for dose 2) group that feels wrong.

Should we worry about what might be deemed a matter of appearances? Maybe not, but I do worry about the psychology of it at the moment. I know it's a trade-off between maybe getting 700k extra people vaccinated (first dose) in January and sticking to the original plan - and it's a tough choice, illustrating just how bad the situation is.

It just feels like we're asking the public to buy a story about science and trusting clinical trials, and novel science etc. Then for the sake of a few days worth of vaccines saved in January (days that we lose again in February) we forget informed consent and ignore what will feel like promises made.

If that creates another dent in public confidence in vaccines or general compliance with other measures (the "they're making it up as they go along" reaction) - then we may not get any advantage from the delays.

 

[redshaw]

It's probably needed as damage limitation compounded by such haphazard running from the government for the past year which leads to this. Said it long before but the coming months could be the most devastating from inaction.

The economy has shrunk the most as well, it's not like we've gained anything from lets see if the tide will come in this time approach.

 

[Mickeza]

I suspect they just didn't see the consent question coming. I'm sure lots have things have been missed, not out of badness or incompetence but just because it's all so bleeding complicated and the decision-makers have been working flat out for months.

As for care homes being the highest priority, you're right to highlight that. Loads haven't had any vaccination at all, meanwhile grossly underpaid carers and cleaners are travelling from one to another for a few hours work at each as the employers, private and public, won't offer enough hours to reach the national insurance threshold. One infected cleaner can pass it on to three homes quite easily.

In fairness consent was raised on the WG calls and it was the biggest barrier to changing the dosing schedule. It is worth noting though that when we gave the first dose the PHW information sheets stated they’d get a second appointment 3 weeks later even though by then we’d already moved to 4 weeks. I’ve never worked on something where something changes as much as this does - you miss one meeting and by the next one the priority groups, how much vaccine we’re getting, where that vaccine can be used, who can/can’t have it, who is giving it, what classes as frontline, are we doing second doses and when...these things all change on an hourly basis. And that’s just the National picture. Not to mention we don’t have a stable staff pool to even give this thing out because we just don’t have the staff available within the NHS at the moment. Everything is all about living day to day which is completely unsustainable on something this big. However, ultimately we’ve vaccinated someone with every dose we’ve been given with about 0.2% wastage and that’s what matters despite all the moaning and noise that’s going on. And next week GPs are going into care homes. I’m hopeful in 12 weeks everyone in those 9 priority groups will have been jabbed once which will be a fantastic place to be. Some countries won’t even start vaccinating until the summer - we really are quite privileged when you think about the bigger picture.

 

[711]

In fairness consent was raised on the WG calls and it was the biggest barrier to changing the dosing schedule. It is worth noting though that when we gave the first dose the PHW information sheets stated they’d get a second appointment 3 weeks later even though by then we’d already moved to 4 weeks. I’ve never worked on something where something changes as much as this does - you miss one meeting and by the next one the priority groups, how much vaccine we’re getting, where that vaccine can be used, who can/can’t have it, who is giving it, what classes as frontline, are we doing second doses and when...these things all change on an hourly basis. And that’s just the National picture. Not to mention we don’t have a stable staff pool to even give this thing out because we just don’t have the staff available within the NHS at the moment. Everything is all about living day to day which is completely unsustainable on something this big. However, ultimately we’ve vaccinated someone with every dose we’ve been given with about 0.2% wastage and that’s what matters despite all the moaning and noise that’s going on. And next week GPs are going into care homes. I’m hopeful in 12 weeks everyone in those 9 priority groups will have been jabbed once which will be a fantastic place to be. Some countries won’t even start vaccinating until the summer - we really are quite privileged when you think about the bigger picture.

Thank you on several levels. 0.2% wastage sounds brilliant, well done

 

[Mickeza]

Thank you on several levels. 0.2% wastage sounds brilliant, well done

Ah it’s not me. I’m not the one sticking jabs in arms! It’s great to just be involved in something this big and important though that will hopefully make a difference to everyone. I think after the next few weeks everything will look a lot smoother from the outside and hopefully as the public see the numbers start to tick up the confidence in the programme will grow. It was always going to be like this at the start considering the pace it’s being done at.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

As someone who has had the first dose I think it's the right decision as long as the government has enough evidence to suggest that it would work fine . I am BAME but relatively fit in my early 30's and if someone in their 60-70's can get a shot earlier by this then it is the right decision. My worry is that like a lot of the earlier strategies if this doesn't work then it could be an utter disaster . Considering how bad the situation is right now I think it's the right call .

I am kind of sick of the whole well this will effect the anti vaxxers . I truly believe that most people from that group are too far down the road and nothing will change their mindset anyway

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

It's a miracle that we are ending 2020 with already a vaccine that has been given to somewhere around 600-800k people . It's rather unfortunate that this positive news has been overshadowed because we are going through our first spell of infection right now .


With regards to vaccine delivery as someone who lived in India for 25 years and now works in primary care here I feel that unfortunately a lot of the restrictions & rules in place which are right for most other medical things in the UK will obviously impact the vaccine process here . There is far too much importance given to doing it the proper way & following a structure rather than considering it an emergency & just using extreme measures. At this point the number of vaccine doses available should be the only thing holding the process back and there is no excuse to not vaccinating exactly as many as the number of doses available every week . Manpower should definitely not be an excuse seriously. We should be running 24*7 clinic if it needs to be if there are enough doses available

 

[sammsky1]

Just watched this. Very hopeful way to end this miserable year!

 

[utdalltheway]

Another US based nutter
A pharmacist in WI caught messing with the vaccines. What a fcukin langer!

 

[Compton22]

Another US based nutter
A pharmacist in WI caught messing with the vaccines. What a fcukin langer!

Never mind being fired, he should be thrown in jail!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's a miracle that we are ending 2020 with already a vaccine that has been given to somewhere around 600-800k people . It's rather unfortunate that this positive news has been overshadowed because we are going through our first spell of infection right now .


With regards to vaccine delivery as someone who lived in India for 25 years and now works in primary care here I feel that unfortunately a lot of the restrictions & rules in place which are right for most other medical things in the UK will obviously impact the vaccine process here . There is far too much importance given to doing it the proper way & following a structure rather than considering it an emergency & just using extreme measures. At this point the number of vaccine doses available should be the only thing holding the process back and there is no excuse to not vaccinating exactly as many as the number of doses available every week . Manpower should definitely not be an excuse seriously. We should be running 24*7 clinic if it needs to be if there are enough doses available

Agreed. Who’s allowed to give IM injections in the Uk. Doctors. Nurses. Pharmacists? Anyone else?

Definitely should be making whatever legislative changes need to be made to allow as many HCWs as possible to give the vaccine. Maybe even temporarily train/license non-HCWs?

Could have a doctor on site to deal with allergic reactions etc with a whole team of injectors doing the actual injecting. 12 hours shifts, running 24 hours/day.