Denmark to completely stop using AZ.
https://politiken.dk/indland/art8171068/Danmark-skrotter-AstraZeneca-vaccine
https://politiken.dk/indland/art8171068/Danmark-skrotter-AstraZeneca-vaccine
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- Thread starter Badunk
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The Danish media reporting that the Danish health authorities are going to drop Astra Zeneca. This vaccination campaign is going to take a long time.
edit: Can see that OleBoiii beat me to it by a few seconds
edit: Can see that OleBoiii beat me to it by a few seconds
Seems too extreme and counter-productive. The only way I can see this working is Denmark has a small population and has far less need for big quantities of vaccines.
Sigh. Getting a bit sick of the overly cautious approach we are seeing in Denmark. Both vaccination and re-opening the society is painfully slow.
Well, both of those are true. Denmark only needs 11 million doses to vaccinate the entire population (including children who are not being currently vaccinated). The health authorities themselves are saying that they are exercising an abundance of caution with this.
Are Denmark pushing out the gap between Pfizer doses? That’s being considered in Ireland and might help make up AZ shortfall. Not a fan of that approach myself but doesn’t seem to have caused any problems in the UK so at least there’s a precedent. Think they did the same in Canada?
I have not heard or read of them doing nothing of the sort. The health authorities are very by the book here and the vaccination of senior citizens is an absolute priority for the government.
Finland has done 12 weeks gap the whole time with all the vaccines.
The size of the population doesn't matter. The proportions of different vaccines is the same regardless. I do think it is a bad decision though.
Didn't Denmark order more vaccines outside of the EU wide rollout though?
They did something with Israel and Austria in March, mainly preparing for variants, but that won't have an effect until something like September or later.
Bit of a weird situation potentially coming up for me. I work in the social/youth welfare/political education sector (don`t really know the accurate english describtion) and my organization (running various projects in the sector) has started to administer vaccination dates for my colleagues who work "in the field". I don`t as I`m in a sort of networking/secondary educational position (doing workshops for people working in the sector etc.) so at first it was communicated that people like me will have to wait, which is obviously understandable, I`ve been working from home for months and there`s no direct need to change that quickly.
But now it seems that situation may have changed and I can also get vaccinated.
Now I`m obviously happy to be vaccinated from an egoistical perspective and I have nothing against the vaccines. But I`m 28, no underlying health issues, who`s in a priviliged position to be able to WFH, no contact to older people whatsoever and only seeing friends my age. So, I`m feeling a bit bad if its really already my turn. Now where I live (Berlin), basically everyone above 70 has already been vaccinated and the majority of over 60s will be once I get my appointment so the situation is not like e.g. in Italy. But there are also a lot of younger people with health issues that I would be skipping. On the other hand I feel a bit of a responsibility towards my employer who`s making these vaccinations possible for us. And there`s possibly also a logistical argument to be made that it wouldn`t really help the vaccination campaign if I skip now for "moral" reasons but end up helping no one because my case waste time and energy in an administrative sense.
But now it seems that situation may have changed and I can also get vaccinated.
Now I`m obviously happy to be vaccinated from an egoistical perspective and I have nothing against the vaccines. But I`m 28, no underlying health issues, who`s in a priviliged position to be able to WFH, no contact to older people whatsoever and only seeing friends my age. So, I`m feeling a bit bad if its really already my turn. Now where I live (Berlin), basically everyone above 70 has already been vaccinated and the majority of over 60s will be once I get my appointment so the situation is not like e.g. in Italy. But there are also a lot of younger people with health issues that I would be skipping. On the other hand I feel a bit of a responsibility towards my employer who`s making these vaccinations possible for us. And there`s possibly also a logistical argument to be made that it wouldn`t really help the vaccination campaign if I skip now for "moral" reasons but end up helping no one because my case waste time and energy in an administrative sense.
I think you're being very public-spirited in looking at it this way, but if you're offered a vaccination by your employer, you should take it. It's not as if you're trying to jump the queue or anything like that.
You're right to assume that if you turn it down, it doesn't mean someone more at risk will get a vaccination more quickly.
Interesting. Apart from anything else, having such a long gap must be really frustrating for the people getting vaccinated. We’ve been advised that vaccinated people can start socialising with other vaccinated people from two weeks after the second dose of Pfizer (6 weeks after first) With a 12 week gap does everyone have to wait three months before behaving differently?
Take it whilst you can get it is my advice. If you turn it down you don’t know who will get it. You e been picked, nice job, go get it
Well on the other hand people get their first dose a lot quicker, I would think it is more frustrating to wait for the first dose than to wait for the second, and there is plenty of evidence that already first dose gives a pretty good cover. I was sceptical of the decision when they made it in January but today I would do it that way also. Pros and cons in every choice.
Agree with this if you don't want to shout about it then fair enough.
Don’t forget there are multiple doses per vial and each vial needs to be used the same day it is reconstituted. Assuming you/your colleagues are booked in to a dedicated vaccination session there’s a chance that your dose could quite literally go to waste if you don’t take up the option.
50m extra doses from Pfizer to EU in Q2.
Cheers everybody.
To be clear, I don`t have an appointment yet and if the decision is made, I`d get send a code which I can use to make an appointment. So its not like spontaneously not showing up for a dedicated vaccination session.
But yeah, seems like going along with the flow is probably the better solution either way.
Not that I have any particular relation to Denmark, so it doesn't immediately affect me and I probably shouldn't care very much about their decision. But the thinking just completely grates me.
Already it is dubious from a pure health perspective if the risk of vaccine-caused damage via clots or similar should outweigh the risk of damage caused by covid, because the latter seems more likely than the former. Maybe some countries can say "oh but I have very low community transmission so the risk of covid is currently very small", but even that is an incomplete picture. It doesn't factor in that the quicker you move towards immunization and potential re-opening also has value that needs to be factored into the equation.
From a practical perspective, I just hope that all these countries that are pausing and eventually cancelling use of AZ and J&J vaccines can just send them to others, because most of Central and South America won't have the same qualms about the risk of clotting with the current state of things here.
J&J are being sensible here. It's earmarked for a far younger population than AZ has been used on so far so pull the vaccine for a few days whilst the US and Europe review the data, then get it back out on the market with no further hiccups. The worst thing would be to carry on using it in Europe only to have another scramble in a month when more people start getting clots.
The EU is also finalising a contract for 1.8 billion Pfizer doses for the next 3 years, with a stipulation that all components are manufactured within the bloc. Learning from their mistakes.
The EU is also finalising a contract for 1.8 billion Pfizer doses for the next 3 years, with a stipulation that all components are manufactured within the bloc. Learning from their mistakes.
But that’s the thing. The health authorities can only make a decision based on the situation in their country. If they have low community transmission and alternative vaccines available then they have the luxury of being able to be more cautious. If not, they don’t.
Making sure vaccines are shared fairly around the world is a separate issue. A very important one but not relevant to Denmark’s decision.
If they have alternative vaccines with less risk immediately available, then I agree it is a decision "free of cost". The country that to me seems closer to this is the US regarding the J&J pause, because there seems to be so much Pfizer and Moderna both already used and becoming available on a daily basis that it doesn't change their prospective timing to pause J&J.
But in the case of Denmark it seems like a 4 week delay (and that's not factoring in risk of more because you're trading vaccine doses that already exist for ones still to be produced), so you also need to factor in a further 4 weeks of restrictions added to whatever date you might have prospectively been looking at easing. That's not costless, but it seems to me to not be factored in very much in these decisions. The benefits of vaccines is not just reducing covid risk, it is that + enabling re-opening.
Fantastic news. Great bunch of lads are Pfizer. Anyone I know who has gotten it said they have been fine after too. Seems like the most reliable of them.
Go get it imo, you've no idea what happens to that dose if you don't. Vaccines on shelves are doing nobody any good. Priority system is important but it shouldn't risk slowing down the overall vaccination programme. Every vaccine in someone's arm is a success story putting us 1 step closer to getting out of this mess and the only one you can guarantee is your own.
Sounds uncomfortable to me
It stimulates the vagus nerve even more when you finally go so it pays off in the end.
That is perfectly fine. I am sure that other countries will welcome Denmark giving them those safe AZ vaccines, while people in Denmark catch covid 19 as a direct result.
To me the biggest negative consequence of Denmark’s extreme caution is the effect this will have on vaccine hesitancy elsewhere. It’s going to be very difficult for vaccinators all over the world to tell people why this is safe for the person in front of them but not if they lived in Denmark.
Every time I see good news on the vaccine rollout in Europe, it’s always Pfizer/Biontech. They seem to have their shit together and a real good product
They may have low transmission now but as we know that can change pretty quickly. Seems a little short sighted but thats just my uneducated opinion.
They are doing quite well with Pfizer vaccine.
Understood. But assuming those AZ vaccines existed in the first place, they could still be safely administered, thereby increasing the rate at which Denmark vaccines it's people.
And thereby reducing the overall risk.
They average 2 deaths per day. The worst case scenario is probably that this decision costs 10 lives and 1 week longer restrictions. But given the better efficacy of Pfizer compared to AZ, it will actually probably save lives.
Nope. They are not safe. Obviously, they are far far safer than covid, but they are also killing people. At this stage, this is hardly something up to debate.
Obviously, I would still be glad to getone if offered, but I cannot blame people who refuse to get it cause there is a chance (though tiny) that it might kill you.
Fully agreed. At least make it age-restricted like many other countries do, or perhaps even make it available on a voluntary basis.
I think in general any alternative costs are being totally ignored in the public debate in Denmark. Not only the economic costs, which are huge, but also the adverse health effects of having the country locked down - mental health issues from being alone or losing jobs, people not getting checked up for other serious ailments, kids not getting proper education, etc. It is quite frustrating. We have now had around 200 people hospitalized with covid for at least two months, yet it is not deemed appropriate to accelerate opening in any way, even though the projections said it would be 800 by now.
@Massive Spanner. Just to show we’re not complete outliers here. We’ve only just dipped below 200 in hospital for the first time today and we have half the population of Denmark.
Denmark 5.8m, Ireland 5.0m.
Half? You need to get your geography in order there Pogue! Does sound very similar to us though, which is surprising given their far superior health service.