The ugly face of racism in English football

Sky Sports host apologises for 'shutting down' racism discussion

'The Sky Sports host David Jones has apologised for “shutting down” discussion of an alleged racist incident that occurred during Chelsea’s 2-0 victory over Tottenham Hotspur on Sunday.

The game was marred by controversy after the Chelsea defender Antonio Rüdiger was allegedly subjected to racist abuse by a section of the crowd.

Gary Neville was applauded for saying the Premier League needed to “stand up” to the problem. The former England player said that while critics were quick to point out racist incidents occurring abroad, “we have a racism problem in the Premier League in England and the Premier League have got to stand up, they hide behind the FA [Football Association] on this issue”.

Neville added that racism in football was mirrored in UK politics and criticised both the Conservatives and Labour for not doing enough to stamp out racism in their parties.

Jones interrupted Neville’s speech to say: “I am compelled to say, they are the views of you, Gary Neville, and not those of Sky Sports, that is my duty.”

Jones later apologised on Twitter and clarified that it was Neville’s comments about racism in politics from which he had been distancing Sky Sports.

“I’m so sorry to have spoiled what was such an important discussion on racism tonight. I had to intervene when Gary suggested the two main political parties were to blame – I didn’t make that clear enough. For that I apologise unreservedly,” he wrote on Twitter.

“I would never purposefully shut down a discussion on racism. I’ve worked for Sky for over 20 years and know they share my view that racism of any kind should not be tolerated. That is not a debate. And that’s why I’m so very disappointed and sorry tonight.”'

(Guardian)
 
Partial stadium closure for first offence.
Points deduction for second offence.

No bulls**t anymore. Stop debating and start doing something.

The wider structural problems need sorting aswell. Lack of black managers, chairmen. Lack of Asian players etc.

That will take time. Punish the Knuckle dragging wan**rs first before they feel confident enough to do it again.
 
Haddock said:
There's an interesting perception of non white players at junior level. That somehow Asians don't like contact sport or are too small. The FA did a report on it in the 90s I believe.
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I spoke to a friend about this and he said it's because Asian parents tend to want their children to follow academic routes rather than sporting ones.

Having said that, I have no doubt that there has been cases of talented Asian footballers being put off due to racist abuse though. Granted it was 15 years ago but my schoolfriend was racially abused because he was olive skinned in a school game - it astounded me as this was a guy who basically looked like he had been on holiday so I imagine it would be worse for a Pakistani/Indian kid.

Gary's right that with Brexit and these pundits/politicians who have weaponised racism for political gain that it has empowered racists. We've gone backwards and I'm really starting to hate this country.
 
duffer said:
I just looked again, fair enough the Shaw one was about Young (something like "Shaw is out, now that donkey will play" and one accusing Ole of riding donkeys.

I guess I can only speak for myself, I've honestly never heard it used in a racial way (and over my years watching Chelsea and playing Sunday league, I've heard a lot) and its always a footballing insult.
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I think it was @Dante who also mentioned the greedy trope with regards to Jews, which is a great comparison. Obviously calling someone greedy or stingy is not anti-semitic in and of itself, and is used as a general insult all the time. Rich people are greedy, the guy trying to get out of his round at the pub is stingy, etc. However, it is also obviously true that these are traits associated with Jewish people, both in the sense that Jews are being called these things and that people that are (perceived to be) these things are called Jews as an insult ("come on, don't be a Jew", and things to that effect). If you've frequented forums with less quality control and more pictures than Redcafe, then you've probably seen the "greedy merchant", and if you've read your Martin Luther you've come across one of an infinite number of 500 year old examples.

In this context it's not (at least for me) as much about the term 'donkey' as in it's about a trend of focusing on black players's physical attributes, leading to downplaying or even denigrating their other footballing attributes. Donkey is a part of this, but just an example of a wider trend. Donkey, headless chicken, workhorse, beast, or more "positive" ones like specimen. As with greedy or stingy, no one is saying that these are racist terms (I know you don't think that's the point, but people like @The Bloody-Nine seems to think that it is). Tony Adams was called a donkey, Gennaro Gattuso a headless chicken and Nemanja Vidić a beast.

Someone else mentioned Claude Makélélé as a black player known for his intelligence and positioning, but if there's one word I associate with him it's 'destroyer'. A journalist called him a "ferocious midfield terrier". Pogba is time and time again praised primarily for his physicality, and while he undoubtedly is very athletic that is not even close to his best footballing trait. As you're a Chelsea fan it's natural to bring up people like Didier Drogba or N'Golo Kanté, or Makélélé once again.

Even bringing up specific examples, even though I just did, is maybe not that helpful. People can bring up counter examples or instances where the examples are praised for their non-physical traits (people did and do talk about Makélélé's positioning, Pogba's creativity, Drogba's technique and Kanté's intelligence). We're talking about trends, which is both harder to identify (in yourself and others) and do away with, but I think it's an important conversation to be had.
 
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Dante said:
Rooney gets called stupid all the time. Pogba never has been from what I can remember.

You're making shit up to suit a pre-determined fantasy.

There are plenty of things to complain about when it comes to racism in society without inventing a strawman.
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I was talking about football if you don’t get it then you don’t get it.

But on a personality level. Rooney a man with a drink driving conviction, regular piss head, cheated on his wife etc is portrayed as a better a human being and role model by the media then Pogba, and even Sterling (Until he called out the media)
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Yes, plenty of times. Claude Makelele literally had a position named after him because of his positional awareness and game intelligence.


Easy. Sterling, Mane, van Dijk, Kante, Mbappe. Barely even had to think for 2 seconds.
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Makélélé relied mostly on his hard work, reading of the game and interceptions. Intelligent things when you compare to the typical EPL CDM who’d run around crunching tackles. But pretty standard qualities for a CDM in Europe. Don’t think any position was renamed after him.
 
Haddock said:
Sure it's one reason but not the only one. Plenty of British Asians play cricket - a sport that is even harder to break into - and Nasser Hussain even captained England is 45 tests. The most high profile British Boxer between Lennox Lewis and Anthony Joshua was British Asian. It is sort of odd how Asians can have a semi prominent place in English life - first female law student at Oxford, Freddie Mercury, first non white president of the royal society, actors, second rate pop stars and BBC talking heads but can't produce one half decent top division footballer.


It's literally called the Makelele role.
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Yeah. Because the alternative in the EPL before was David Batty
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Fair play to Gary Neville completely agree with him there, but what a cnutish move from Sky! What does that even mean that standing up against racism isn’t their view then? Dave Jones is a fecking coward as well, even if there was someone in his ear telling him to say that he could’ve said he personally agreed with Nevilles statement as well. Instead he comes out with some bollocks about having a “balanced view“ Racism should be eradicated there’s no other side to that argument.
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Yeah his 'balanced' comment made no sense. He's since come out, tail between legs, saying he was referring to the political comment, but even there, Neville was very even-handed in his criticism. I hope Sky gets roasted for this.
 
Haddock said:
Sure it's one reason but not the only one. Plenty of British Asians play cricket - a sport that is even harder to break ... (list notable achievements sporting and none sporting)


It's literally called the Makelele role.
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A 15 year old British Yemeni trying to get into boxing isn’t going to be getting racially abused on a Saturday by parents of whatever rival team he’s playing.


The football pitch and it’s surrounding area with spectators from grassroots up to professional level has always been a place where aspects of the law don’t matter. That’s what needs to stop
 
The Bloody-Nine said:
Correct. Tony f*cking Adams nickname was Donkey. Idiots making up racism everywhere, welcome to 2019.
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feck off with that attitude.

A) We know more in 2019 as a human being than we did at any previous time so naturally when stupidity is shown, we highlight it more.
B) They aren't making up racism everywhere and I'd be interested to know what you find racist and what you think is okay in terms of abuse/banter/etc.
C) @Dante has illuminated in this thread that there could be a subsconscious undercurrent of racism to do with the word and highlighted that although white players may have been called donkeys in the past, it's typically black players. The numbers don't lie. It'd be interesting to know the history of the word and when it started/where it started/who it was aimed at as an abusive term because that would tell us the undercurrent behind it.
 
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matherto said:
Whilst they come together to make an awful person can we keep them seperate for the discussion please?

Whether he cheated on his wife or not it's not important compared to the racism right now.
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I am sorry but no!

This is a public discussion and you don’t get to censor people.
 
momo83 said:
I was talking about football if you don’t get it then you don’t get it.

But on a personality level. Rooney a man with a drink driving conviction, regular piss head, cheated on his wife etc is portrayed as a better a human being and role model by the media then Pogba, and even Sterling (Until he called out the media)
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How is Rooney portrayed a better human being? I think everyone knows he is beyond defending
 
clarkydaz said:
How is Rooney portrayed a better human being? I think everyone knows he is beyond defending
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Ohhh come one. Have you ever heard pundits talk about Rooney with the revulsion that they do Pogba. Have you ever read random media articles attack Rooney for buying a house for his mum... maybe he hasn’t and she still lives in a council house... pretty certain it Pogba/Sterling mum still lived poor we’d read about it.
 
Spurs statement:
During yesterday’s match against Chelsea, Antonio Rudiger reported hearing alleged racist abuse from an individual(s) in the South Stand.

We are able to track every fan via the cameras and have spent many hours reviewing CCTV footage. We have engaged lip readers to study the footage and contacted Chelsea for further information from their players. We have also taken statements from other parties present at the time. The police will be reviewing our evidence alongside us. Please be assured we shall be exhaustively investigating this matter.

This Club has a proud track record of anti-racism work across all our communities and we are determined to ensure that we conduct a thorough investigation. Any fan found to be guilty will receive a lifetime ban. At this time however we should point out that our findings are inconclusive and would ask that comment is reserved until the facts are established.

In respect of protocols – when the incident was conveyed to the referee Anthony Taylor, he took the decision to call for the implementation of Stage 1 of the UEFA protocol – rather than the Premier League protocol - and asked for an announcement to be made, as well as requesting a further announcement which created a misconception that any issue was on-going. The Premier League protocol differs from UEFA protocol in that it does not call for an announcement rather that the individual(s) be dealt with by the Safety Team in the first instance.

We have asked that the Premier League clarifies the position regarding the use of these protocols to all stakeholders going forward.
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Meanwhile a Chelsea fan has been charged with racially abusing Son after fellow Chelsea supporters reported it to the stewards.
 
momo83 said:
Ohhh come one. Have you ever heard pundits talk about Rooney with the revulsion that they do Pogba. Have you ever read random media articles attack Rooney for buying a house for his mum... maybe he hasn’t and she still lives in a council house... pretty certain it Pogba/Sterling mum still lived poor we’d read about it.
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I understand your point but it was the media revealing him to be a grannyshagging, cheating love rat, pisscan/as England captain, drunk driver etc
 
Rood said:
I find it very difficult to believe that people are doing monkey chants at PL football matches in 2019 - pretty much every team has black players in it, are people really that thick?
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Of course they are. Never underestimate man's capacity for stupidity.
 
Im honestly shocked at the racism in this game still. Especially with PL teams, pretty much each team has players from so many nationalities and race.
 
Bale Bale Bale said:
Spurs statement:



Meanwhile a Chelsea fan has been charged with racially abusing Son after fellow Chelsea supporters reported it to the stewards.
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Good on them. More fans should take note.

On topic, Peter Beardsley is the one of the ugliest human beings I've ever seen in my life. Not just his face. His out-of-proportion massive bulbous head perched on a pencil neck and bizarre, buckled lookign body. How on earth he ended up being a good footballer is weird, watching him run he looked disabled at times.
 
So nothing found yet or any evidence of the monkey chants- doesn’t seem like Spurs fans to be honest, of course it could be or could it be Rudiger misinterpreted a Yid chant or something?

Has the press & media gone a bit ott before it was proven? In the City game it was obvious as you could see the Cnut doing it, but they haven’t found anything yet so just interested what others think on this ?
 
Rafaeldagold said:
So nothing found yet or any evidence of the monkey chants- doesn’t seem like Spurs fans to be honest, of course it could be or could it be Rudiger misinterpreted a Yid chant or something?

Has the press & media gone a bit ott before it was proven? In the City game it was obvious as you could see the Cnut doing it, but they haven’t found anything yet so just interested what others think on this ?
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They possibly have jumped the gun on this one, but given recent events it's little wonder there's heightened sensitivity right now.
Even if this turns out to be nothing it's showing people that the issue is being taken seriously, so it's no bad thing.
 
Kostur said:
I think that the problem is a bit more complex and it's all sort of guess work. I think that in the case of the UK the problem is that for some time you guys have 'believed in your own hype', as in it was the Eastern Europe that was deemed a racist backwards shithole (probably rightfully so to an extent) whereas racism was thought to have been combatted and done with (the obvious and clear one, not at the institutional level) in the West. You've had programmes like Panorama prior to Euro 2012 in Poland and Ukraine absolutely shit smearing those two countries, you've had high profile people like Sol Campbell telling people not to go to the Euro because they'll come back in body bags, and so on, and so forth. It sort of lulls the people into believing that 'those things only happen in X', which quite frankly happens in every sphere of life and on every subject. So with the problem 'not existing here', we sort of ease off on the education part (which imo is the most important one), let smaller incidents be, don't dig into the problem, it's just that the topic is no longer generating clicks so the media don't give one feck about it (and I'm of the opinion that the media play probably the biggest part in the problem). I mean, even off the top of my head you've had some cnut at Stamford Bridge doing the monkey gestures at Welbeck back in what, Fergie times? Or Moyes season? You've had some FA fixture a couple of years ago where somebody died because he was confronted by some hooligans who abused him, you've had Chelsea fans kicking off some guy off the tube in Paris because he was black. Was there as much discussion, outrage and high figures speaking out at those moments? No. Because the subject wasn't as trendy as it is now.

And this is the biggest problem imo. Combatting racism, homophobia, fascism, etc., etc., is done in bursts when it's a hot topic, instead of steady and vigilant way in an extended period with the biggest focus on education. Now what happens is going into extremes, something that oftentimes reminds me of how Red Scare worked in the USA, where anything is going to be labelled '-ist' or '-phobic' which does more harm in diluting the actual term and problem by the groups who, apparently, care so much to combat aforementioned phenomena. The narrative is also very often biased and hypocritical, perpetuated by the media (of either side of the conflict) so we end up with having '-ists' and '-isms' that are okay and that are not okay. We have 'our guys' who might do some disgusting shit but we turn a blind eye to it, and we have 'their guys' who'll get labelled with '-isms' and '-ists' at the slightest occasion possible just to get the mob and narrative against them. And most people will lap up to this shit, because it reinforces their world outlook, because they have a fancy topic to talk about at work, meetings, whatever and because the feeling that they are a part of some community, a group, a movement.

There's simply no stopping it I guess. It's not in anybody's business.
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Well we should put things into perspective - there have been massive strides forward in combatting racism in the Premier League, there is more exposure of the issue than ever. The situation is vastly improved from shameful scenes back in the 70s/80s of overt racism but it is obviously still there in some form. In some Eastern European matches we still see groups of fans going with racist/facist chants, that kind of thing has been virtually eradicated in England, unfortunately the odd thick twat still pops up every now and again

Out of interest I looked up the instances you mentioned: Welbeck at Chelsea (an arrest but no charges), Chelsea in Paris (guilty). The ugly bloke from the derby is under investigation, no arrests so far for the most recent incident. The Chelsea in Paris was the worst with a whole group of imbeciles caught live on video - the others were usually one moron out of 50,000 odd
 
Is there a more socially progressive nation in the world when it comes to racial diversity? I'm honestly interested to know.

I think the UK is clearly ahead of France and Germany. Probably about even with The Netherlands.

The societal divisions are much less ingrained that the US. Canada seems to be doing quite well, though. The less said about Australia, the better. So, too, Israel.

I honestly don't know how things are in Latin America, but the snippets of news I hear aren't universally positive. Nations like India and China have their own well-documented issues. Most other places are mono-racial.

English football was very good at silencing the 5% of full-on, inveterate racists that went to Premier League matches (number plucked out of thin air - I'm just going by the proportion I'd actively try to avoid just in case). The last 5 years have seen them emboldened to be vocal again. Hopefully the next 5 years can see them shut up or maybe even shrink in number.
 
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Dante said:
The last 5 years have seen them emboldened to be vocal again.
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I'm not sure they represent the same (old) segment that was successfully silenced (as you say) back in the day - well for the most part anyway, the ones who were affiliated with high-profile teams.

What happened in English football was that the blatant old school hooligan element was cracked down upon - and among that element were a number of blatant racist/right wing/BNP types, no doubt.

The recent instances of monkey chants and whatnot seems (to me) to be more a case of general empowerment, i.e. that your average man or woman is more likely to display overt racism because they feel there's been a climate change, as it were: their xenophobia has been validated, from their viewpoint, by Brexit and the rhetoric employed by notable public figures.

In other words, it's a case of general ugliness (which, sadly, never went away) rearing its head - because what was categorically a big no-no a few years ago has now become more plausible - rather than a case of the old guard (of racist football fans) having staged a comeback (so to speak).
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Fair play to Gary Neville completely agree with him there, but what a cnutish move from Sky! What does that even mean that standing up against racism isn’t their view then? Dave Jones is a fecking coward as well, even if there was someone in his ear telling him to say that he could’ve said he personally agreed with Nevilles statement as well. Instead he comes out with some bollocks about having a “balanced view“ Racism should be eradicated there’s no other side to that argument.
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In the past few years, this has unfortunately become a fairly wide spread view, particularly among right wing people and some “centrists” that racists apparently have something worthwhile to say and they should be given the chance to speak. That apparently there is some other side of that argument. Fecking disgusting if you ask me.

Then again, you only need to look at the Caf, anytime there’s a thread on something racist, to find a couple people trying to defend it, or saying “well that’s not really racist” or “that’s not that bad”.
 
There seems to be an incident every other week. It can’t be that people are suddenly more racist now, yet the media are acting like there’s some new outbreak of racism.
 
Jericho said:
There seems to be an incident every other week. It can’t be that people are suddenly more racist now, yet the media are acting like there’s some new outbreak of racism.
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Players feel empowered enough to point it out. Five years ago, you would have just played through it. e.g. Dani Alves eating the banana.

From my personal experience, I do think racism has had a revival in recent years. The emergence of right wing parties, groups and news outlets have give perception of validation. Take Tommy Robinson for example, he may or may not be racist. But talk to his supporters and look through the comments on his social media uploads, it's full of blatant racism. The internet is not a place of moderate views and if your going to promote an ideology, you do so with the knowledge it will be pulled into the extreme right or left.

Racism and racist stereotypes are unchallenged on social media, which now happens to be the number one tool for propaganda. Football doesn't have a problem, society does, and if the government are serious about tackling it - the battle needs to take place online, not in the stadiums.
 
The second half of this decade will be remembered as the period when racism became mainstream in all Western societies. In my opinion, dissatisfaction with unfair distribution of income and wealth countered by populist politics is to blame. It is the working class in European countries that is left behind and dissatisfied most (google "elephant chart" for reference). As the same working class is overrepresented in football stadia we should not be surprised about the resurgence of racism there. Populist politicians put fuel to the fire and Brexit England is the prime example for this development that can be seen literally everywhere. Sad times.
 
Racism by definition is the believe that one race is superior than another race. To abuse someone for their colour is prejudice. Gary Neville should get off his high horse before someone posts a picture of him wearing the ‘I hate Scousers’ T-shirt. To go on about the politicians creating the problems is a joke. The issues are caused by society not accepting the multi-cultural make up of our country today. The SNP are racist, they hate the English. When I was young, abuse of anyone different whether it was colour or appearance was rife, normal even. There were TV shows that frequently used the ‘N’ word even on the BBC. I don’t like the abuse that is hurled out to opposing players regardless of colour but all fans do it. They feel empowered as they are with 1000’s of others but would do it face to face. I don’t know the answer in sport or society. Some people will get banned from stadiums but will still shout abuse in the pub so just moving the problem on and out of the way. If the PL/FA allow players to walk off, that will make it worse. Imagine United are beating Celtic in the second leg of the Europa league with ten minutes to go and the Celtic fans started on Fred or Pogba. They could get the players off and have a replay unless they state the score when they leave stands. Then that could cause problems too. As I say, I don’t have an answer to it, there may not be an answer, but Gary Neville needs to look at his past actions.
 
Offsideagain said:
Racism by definition is the believe that one race is superior than another race. To abuse someone for their colour is prejudice. Gary Neville should get off his high horse before someone posts a picture of him wearing the ‘I hate Scousers’ T-shirt. To go on about the politicians creating the problems is a joke. The issues are caused by society not accepting the multi-cultural make up of our country today. The SNP are racist, they hate the English. When I was young, abuse of anyone different whether it was colour or appearance was rife, normal even. There were TV shows that frequently used the ‘N’ word even on the BBC. I don’t like the abuse that is hurled out to opposing players regardless of colour but all fans do it. They feel empowered as they are with 1000’s of others but would do it face to face. I don’t know the answer in sport or society. Some people will get banned from stadiums but will still shout abuse in the pub so just moving the problem on and out of the way. If the PL/FA allow players to walk off, that will make it worse. Imagine United are beating Celtic in the second leg of the Europa league with ten minutes to go and the Celtic fans started on Fred or Pogba. They could get the players off and have a replay unless they state the score when they leave stands. Then that could cause problems too. As I say, I don’t have an answer to it, there may not be an answer, but Gary Neville needs to look at his past actions.
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What has Neville done in the past? I'm not aware of anything.
 
Have to say, I've been quite disappointed with how this has been reported in the media in the past couple of days. There has been a huge amount of seemingly jumping to conclusions.
 
Offsideagain said:
Racism by definition is the believe that one race is superior than another race. To abuse someone for their colour is prejudice. Gary Neville should get off his high horse before someone posts a picture of him wearing the ‘I hate Scousers’ T-shirt. To go on about the politicians creating the problems is a joke. The issues are caused by society not accepting the multi-cultural make up of our country today. The SNP are racist, they hate the English. When I was young, abuse of anyone different whether it was colour or appearance was rife, normal even. There were TV shows that frequently used the ‘N’ word even on the BBC. I don’t like the abuse that is hurled out to opposing players regardless of colour but all fans do it. They feel empowered as they are with 1000’s of others but would do it face to face. I don’t know the answer in sport or society. Some people will get banned from stadiums but will still shout abuse in the pub so just moving the problem on and out of the way. If the PL/FA allow players to walk off, that will make it worse. Imagine United are beating Celtic in the second leg of the Europa league with ten minutes to go and the Celtic fans started on Fred or Pogba. They could get the players off and have a replay unless they state the score when they leave stands. Then that could cause problems too. As I say, I don’t have an answer to it, there may not be an answer, but Gary Neville needs to look at his past actions.
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1) Racism is systematic oppression due to race. When black players are continually singled out for racial abuse on football grounds all over Europe that is racism. Not difficult to understand.
2) It doesn't matter what used to happen. We know it's wrong now. Period
3) Your last excuse scenario isn't a good enough reason to not punish clubs are their fans racially abusing players.
 
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