The team is still awful in possession

Real Name said:
Yes, it has.
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You think Fred, Maguire, McTominay, Lindelof, Rashford, AWB(if ge was on the pitch), Shaw, Bruno, Martial and Sancho have gone up a level with their passing?

I think you're seeing what you want to believe.

They haven't changed.

Our passing and retention has improved because of Antony, Casemiro, Eriksen and Martinez.

It's why we signed them rather than just cosching the existing players to be better.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Since Antony went out of the side our safe out ball has gone, that David Silva/Bernardinho/Iniesta ball if you like, and with it the passing stats from our CB’s and midfielders have taken a real hit. So many times today I could see that Casemiro and Martinez had absolutely no options whatsoever, only players under severe pressure. That’s where Antony comes in.
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Should add also that I don’t think I’ve seen a team pressing us better than Fulham this season. It’s was very well synchronised, very well executed and everybody seemed to have the lungs of a marathon runner.
 
Marwood said:
You think Fred, Maguire, McTominay, Lindelof, Rashford, AWB(if ge was on the pitch), Shaw, Bruno, Martial and Sancho have gone up a level with their passing?

I think you're seeing what you want to believe.

They haven't changed.

Our passing and retention has improved because of Antony, Casemiro, Eriksen and Martinez.

It's why we signed them rather than just cosching the existing players to be better.
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Yes, it changed for the better as a whole for sure. It's not just with players coming in but they helped in the cause. And Maguire and Fred are hardly ever playing. As for Rashford, Bruno and Shaw yes definitely, Martial was good in his passing anyway even before. And as you said passing and retention has improved in team in which Bruno, Shaw and Rashford are playing. Also Lindelof is solid in passing too, the main problem with him was always defending and the fact he gets outmuscled a lot.
 
King7Eric said:
For starters it would help if Casemiro stopped trying to do everything first time. Even in space he never wants to take a touch. We are far too dependant on Shaw for ball progression and we need more outlets when it comes to ball retention in the middle third. Being in possession isn't about passing it around the opponent, it also means being able to hold it under pressure, which players like Casemiro, Eriksen, Lindelof, Fred, Malacia are terrible at. Someone like FDJ who can ride challenges and is good in tight spaces is desperately needed to reduce our dependence on Shaw.
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Ah yes…get everyone else to slow the game down…that’s how to get better in possession!

in order to unsettle teams you move the ball quickly especially in transition before the other team gets a chance to reset. Casemiro has done this for years to devastating effect at Real Madrid. What we need are full backs and midfielders that are on his wavelength. Shaw, Eriksen fit that mould. Dalot still too pedestrian but improving. Fred and McT need to get used to receiving the ball first time. Bruno is our possession culprit. The best pass is not always the Hollywood one.

Casemiro is a breathe of fresh air. Simple, first time, speed of thought essential around him…always need to be ready to recieve the ball. Our midfielders are used to Maguire and Lindelof slowing everything down till one of them strolls ineffectvely back to recieve the ball out….before pointlessly passing it back to the central defenders!
 
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Marwood said:
You think Fred, Maguire, McTominay, Lindelof, Rashford, AWB(if ge was on the pitch), Shaw, Bruno, Martial and Sancho have gone up a level with their passing?

I think you're seeing what you want to believe.

They haven't changed.

Our passing and retention has improved because of Antony, Casemiro, Eriksen and Martinez.

It's why we signed them rather than just cosching the existing players to be better.
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You’re part right but part wrong.

There have been improvements to some of the existing players and I would say the likes of De Gea and Dalot are two of the better examples. Shaw is a good passer of the ball too.

Its also too simplistic to look at passing alone. It’s about movement, progressive passing and knowing how to handle the ball under pressure. Improvements like that take time, especially when it’s a totally different style and you are playing two games a week repeatedly.

You are right that the new players all have these skills though and this is why they have been brought in. I expect the next batch of signings will be similar and those that are still struggling to adapt by then when be gradually phased out.
 
Marwood said:
You think Fred, Maguire, McTominay, Lindelof, Rashford, AWB(if ge was on the pitch), Shaw, Bruno, Martial and Sancho have gone up a level with their passing?

I think you're seeing what you want to believe.

They haven't changed.

Our passing and retention has improved because of Antony, Casemiro, Eriksen and Martinez.

It's why we signed them rather than just cosching the existing players to be better.
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Improving passing and possession is not only about buying players skilled on the ball, or improving that skill. It is very much about develop the way we play, patterns, tacticts, movements, etc. You could see how that has started to develop and you can see how our players sometimes move in ways that we saw in ETH's Ajax. One example, when we are a bit pressed and DDG has the ball, and gets under pressure, our CBs used to go wide. Now I've seen several times how Lindelof goes forward and to the centre, while Dalot is dropping wide and Martinez goes wide. Sometimes Casemiro has taken Lindelof's position as well. This is a totally new pattern for us, clearly instructed from ETH. These are patterns used to keep possession and play through the press from the back. It will take time to develop. Of course it takes a certain degree of ball handling skills to be able to execute it, but my point is that "passing skill" is largely a team skill as well.
 
TheReligion said:
You’re part right but part wrong.

There have been improvements to some of the existing players and I would say the likes of De Gea and Dalot are two of the better examples. Shaw is a good passer of the ball too.

Its also too simplistic to look at passing alone. It’s about movement, progressive passing and knowing how to handle the ball under pressure. Improvements like that take time, especially when it’s a totally different style and you are playing two games a week repeatedly.

You are right that the new players all have these skills though and this is why they have been brought in. I expect the next batch of signings will be similar and those that are still struggling to adapt by then when be gradually phased out.
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So far everyone comes up with the same two examples and one's the goalkeeper. That in itselt is telling. I think Dalot is just improving like lots of young players do. He's better at everything this season not just passing. Shaw hasn't improved in my mind, he's the same good passer he's always been.

We all just watched the Villa game midweek when we were forced to essentially play Ole's team. It was awful, exactly like last season. To believe these players have all gone up a level in their passing is just wishful thinking.

Thankfully we had two new players in Eriksen and Garnacho to bring on and change the game.
 
I think part of the reason the passing accuracy is low is it has become noticeable the interplay is far quicker and ETH seems to like to mix in longer balls to use our pacey players. So we're testing the technique of the players, not all of which may be here in the long run.
 
You cannot have a thread like this without Bruno being the centrepiece of the discussion, for the position he plays, the situational awareness of what to do and what not to do at key times and his overall attitude to possession, which causes the team as a collective multiple miles of effort in running in both directions.

The backline is far better than it was in possession; Casemiro and Eriksen are better than what was there prior, but we come unstuck real fast in the transitions after that point in the team. Martial and Antony understand possession and make decisions that benefit the collective. The remainder of our attack (Sancho not factored) can not/do not and will go for the wham bam thank you mam actions or simply, limply give the ball away near every time with little in-between because it doesn't match their skilset or understanding of the game.

If you want to bring your full-backs into truly rentative overlapping phases, they need their attackers to be reliable and dependable. There is also need for at least two players who make the ball stick; we have one in the entire squad, who cannot stay fit. But that central hub and conduit is the most important piece of all in true, superfluous ball retention and ours treats the ball like a bomb where what is needed there more so than any position on the pitch is acute awareness of what to do and when for the benefit of literally everyone orbiting, which is why it is the most vaunted position in football and gets the most plaudits for the greatest exponents.

We can become transformative in other ways, but there are at least two elephants in the room when it comes to us and retentive football with smaller issues piggybacking them.
 
Not surprising when you look at some of the stats. We are 16th in progressive distance, which is absolutely abysmal. That is completed passes that travel towards the opponent's goal. Keeping us company down here are Soton, Bournemouth, and Leeds. First in this category are Liverpool, City, Spurs, and Arsenal.

But then we also manage to be middle of the table in pass accuracy, which is pretty baffling. So not only we attempt fewer progressive passes, but we also manage to somehow screw that up? How!?

Another interesting statistic is shot zones. 41% of our shots come from outside the box. So almost half. This isn't good at all. It basically means we can't break down defenses, can't get the ball into the box, so we take potshots from afar and hope for the best. This isn't how you score reliably. City have 32%, Arsenal have 31%, Newcastle 28%.

We are 5th in shots on target per 90 minutes. Which would be good, right? But then we are 10th in xG. Meaning we shoot on target, but the shots are generally poor quality.

All of this is in line with what I've seen on the pitch. The football we've played so far this season has generally been poor, with a few exceptions, like the Spurs game. Our work around the opponent's box has been terrible. We desperately, desperately need a CF and a progressive CM.
 
Isotope said:
- There's McTom playing in midfield with 100% passing rate, but 3 passes in about 40 min. on the pitch.
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:lol: fecking hell. He can always surprise me - that stat is diabolical, even from McTominay.

But even without him, yesterday was immensely frustrating. Time and time again we simply gave Fulham the ball back by going long, either because of lack of options or trying to force the killer pass even when it wasn't actually on. It felt like it had to be tactical, it had to be down to the instructions because the alternative is that we have braindead players.
 
Isotope said:
THis one against Fullham (source: whoscored.com). Let see players type of pass, passing rate, and their involvement in game.

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- We have a DM and CB who were the worst culprit of long ball to nowhere (look that LB and AccLB), with accuracy 20-30%, with DDG as the next one.

- Then Casemiro's as DM had a nightmare with 67% passing rate, while only creating 1 key pass (compare to Bruno who had similar passing rate but could easily have 4 assists today). And Martinez had his worst passing game, with ~80% as a CB.

- THen look at the wingers in Rashford and Elanga. Rashford wasn't that much involved and didn't create key pass (hmm.., I remember he made a good pass to Malacia's chance), and still have 74% passing rate. Then Elanga's involvement was 15 passes in 54 minutes with no key pass.

- There's McTom playing in midfield with 100% passing rate, but 3 passes in about 40 min. on the pitch.
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The last comment on McTominay is what caught my eye first thing. 3 passes in almost 40mins is just incredible.
 
King7Eric said:
For starters it would help if Casemiro stopped trying to do everything first time. Even in space he never wants to take a touch. We are far too dependant on Shaw for ball progression and we need more outlets when it comes to ball retention in the middle third. Being in possession isn't about passing it around the opponent, it also means being able to hold it under pressure, which players like Casemiro, Eriksen, Lindelof, Fred, Malacia are terrible at. Someone like FDJ who can ride challenges and is good in tight spaces is desperately needed to reduce our dependence on Shaw.
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Outlets is a big part of it for me. Our wide players are pretty poor and don't offer anything to the central mids.
 
Telsim said:
Not surprising when you look at some of the stats. We are 16th in progressive distance, which is absolutely abysmal. That is completed passes that travel towards the opponent's goal. Keeping us company down here are Soton, Bournemouth, and Leeds. First in this category are Liverpool, City, Spurs, and Arsenal.

But then we also manage to be middle of the table in pass accuracy, which is pretty baffling. So not only we attempt fewer progressive passes, but we also manage to somehow screw that up? How!?

Another interesting statistic is shot zones. 41% of our shots come from outside the box. So almost half. This isn't good at all. It basically means we can't break down defenses, can't get the ball into the box, so we take potshots from afar and hope for the best. This isn't how you score reliably. City have 32%, Arsenal have 31%, Newcastle 28%.

We are 5th in shots on target per 90 minutes. Which would be good, right? But then we are 10th in xG. Meaning we shoot on target, but the shots are generally poor quality.

All of this is in line with what I've seen on the pitch. The football we've played so far this season has generally been poor, with a few exceptions, like the Spurs game. Our work around the opponent's box has been terrible. We desperately, desperately need a CF and a progressive CM.
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Well with martial fit then CF is not the standout problem, our wide players create feck all and are technically weak.

I think usually when everyone is fit, our defence carries out team, our midfield is decent, but our attack is pitiful.
 
@Telsim One of the things that hurt us in possession is the team doesn't have many good ball carriers or dribblers. It doesn't give a lot of our players the breathing space needed to make their passes or take better shots.

Yesterday we had one successful dribble out of 13. I think only Shaw, McTominay and maybe Martial carried the ball forward effectively.

There aren't stats for ball carrying anymore on fbref but we rank 13th in successful dribbles, Arsenal are 1st.
 
Siorac said:
:lol: fecking hell. He can always surprise me - that stat is diabolical, even from McTominay.

But even without him, yesterday was immensely frustrating. Time and time again we simply gave Fulham the ball back by going long, either because of lack of options or trying to force the killer pass even when it wasn't actually on. It felt like it had to be tactical, it had to be down to the instructions because the alternative is that we have braindead players.
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eire-red said:
The last comment on McTominay is what caught my eye first thing. 3 passes in almost 40mins is just incredible.
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Tbf, the stats didn't include headings, tackles, etc., which may show McTom game involvement better. But since the thread is about possession, we just strictly go with passing.

ALthough like you said, it seems like that's the instruction to go long. I think we did that in that Villa's cup game also. But this time it didn't work, hence people start questioning.

The stats at least showed that Case and Martinez aren't that good with long ball, and may need to leave it to Bruno, Luke and Eriksen.
 
For all slacks Mcfred get off, but Eriksen - Cameiro haven't even improved us much better in term of controlling the game, only their creativity helps.

Cameiro had 67% passing accurately, only 10% of the total pass completed is a long pass. Mctominay come on in 53; and had like 40 minutes of playing, but only managed to complete 3 pass with 100% passing accurate rate which is fecking awful, especially for a midfielder.

I have no doubt that if Cameiro keep passing accurate rate at 80% and over and Mctominay more involved in midfield, we could control the game better against Fulham.
 
Aouer-United said:
For all slacks Mcfred get off, but Eriksen - Cameiro haven't even improved us much better in term of controlling the game, only their creativity helps.

Cameiro had 67% passing accurately, only 10% of the total pass completed is a long pass. Mctominay come on in 53; and had like 40 minutes of playing, but only managed to complete 3 pass with 100% passing accurate rate which is fecking awful, especially for a midfielder.

I have no doubt that if Cameiro keep passing accurate rate at 80% and over and Mctominay more involved in midfield, we could control the game better against Fulham.
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I don’t think we were trying to control the game against Fulham. The amount of quick long passes we made makes me think it was tactical
 
Jeppers7 said:
I don’t think we were trying to control the game against Fulham. The amount of quick long passes we made makes me think it was tactical
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Yep. I like me a pragmatic coach who can get the team to play good football at the same time. Now we know that when our first XI is fit we can play great football. It’s about the depth and consistency, and some additional quality in some areas. But I like the trajectory this team is heading
 
Jeppers7 said:
I don’t think we were trying to control the game against Fulham. The amount of quick long passes we made makes me think it was tactical
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Not saying that we're trying to control the game against Fulham, but controlling it better is one thing that we can do that. We subbed Elenga in for Mctominay to calm the game down and trying to control it better, I don't think it was working.
 
Aouer-United said:
Not saying that we're trying to control the game against Fulham, but controlling it better is one thing that we can do that. We subbed Elenga in for Mctominay to calm the game down and trying to control it better, I don't think it was working.
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I agree with the second part to some extent but I don’t think ETH thought that bringing on McT would increase our possession, more that it might help us to be more difficult to play through….and then counter.
 
Pronewbie said:
Yep. I like me a pragmatic coach who can get the team to play good football at the same time. Now we know that when our first XI is fit we can play great football. It’s about the depth and consistency, and some additional quality in some areas. But I like the trajectory this team is heading
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Agreed. I’m looking forward to a time when he has a better squad and has had more time on the training ground. In the meantime we must expect ups and downs and grinding out some results, but even within these games some of the football is great. The winner for example comes from Martinez and Shaw keeping the ball under pressure in our box.
 
To play a possession based fooball we need this formation at least:
[New GK]
Dalot - Varane - Martinez - Shaw
Eriksen - Casemiro - [FDJ]
Antony - Martial - [new LWF]

we only had 5 of 11 players possession based fitting players played in our games vs Fulham and Villa

De Gea never fits possession based football with his passing
Lindelof never fits possession based football with his lack of raw pace and his lack of composure
Bruno is a counter attacking player who lacks ball shielding and consistency of passes
Rashford is a counter attacking player who lacks ball shielding and loves hit-and-miss approach
 
We have looked like a bad championship team in possession for the last two games.
 
Missing our two best central midfielders might have something to do with that
 
No Casemiro, no Eriksen.

What exactly is anyone expecting when the two players unavailable who are crucial to our midfield are out?
 
Won’t look any better against Barcelona, that’s for sure. They’ve got about 3 of the central midfielder profile we miss in our squad
 
r3idy said:
Missing our two best central midfielders might have something to do with that
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I know one is Casemiro, but I have no clue which the second one is you're talking about?

Edit totally forgot about Eriksen, thought you were talking about McT :rolleyes:
 
This is a result of our lack of quality in our midfield back-ups, which is not news to anyone. We just need to get over this Casemiro suspension and how we don't drop too many points in these games.
 
Bogga said:
I know one is Casemiro, but I have no clue which the second one is you're talking about?

Edit totally forgot about Eriksen, thought you were talking about McT :rolleyes:
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Well tbf would prefer him to Fred in midfield, horses for courses and all that ;)
 
Leeds have made it quite tough for us. They won't keep it up in the second half
 
Having Maguire and Fred in the same team will do that to a team, Weghorst doesn’t help either and is basically just a warm body on the pitch.
 
Even with our strongest eleven playing, we're weaker than the best teams in the league in this regard.

But that should improve as the players improve. Whether it's a better CF, a better starting midfielder, better back-ups in midfield than Fred and McTominay, better options at RB, a goalkeeper capable of playing out from the back, etc etc. Upgrades in all those positions will play their part in making us better in possession.

When you compare how we play to the way ETH's Ajax played, we're clearly operating under compromises as a result of the personnel. But at least we are sure the coach can improve us in that direction.
 
A few weeks back we were talking up a title run. That was based on a settled Erikson/Casemiro midfield and Rashford in the goal a game form of his life.

Any time we don't have 2 of the above three we look mediocre and a team that would struggle for top 4.
 
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