For starters it would help if Casemiro stopped trying to do everything first time. Even in space he never wants to take a touch. We are far too dependant on Shaw for ball progression and we need more outlets when it comes to ball retention in the middle third. Being in possession isn't about passing it around the opponent, it also means being able to hold it under pressure, which players like Casemiro, Eriksen, Lindelof, Fred, Malacia are terrible at. Someone like FDJ who can ride challenges and is good in tight spaces is desperately needed to reduce our dependence on Shaw.
The team is still awful in possession
- Thread starter Idxomer
- Start date
Those were the two best players I had in mind. Also I think Ronaldo starting 4 or so games hindered us a bit. A team can’t turn on and off the playing side of things. It comes with momentum
Of course, one thing is influencing the other. De Gea not being able to play out of the back is probably one reason, the rise of all team playing pressing is another one, it makes it all the more difficult to keep possession, and you need a team that is really built with players who can keep a high 80% or even 90% passing accuracy against teams like that, which imo only City is really able of doing.
Which means the way we play football is probably a mix of things, pressing and counter pressing is the current football "meta", we don't have the most technically and tactically gifted team and EtH is practical enough to not play football that doesn't suite our team.
I do think that at times we play long when needed by design, and are not as obssessed with possesion just yet.
After the first two games we clearly abandoned playing out from the back intially until we got some results and confidence. Then we started to focus on possesion. Unfortunately, we again lost key players and that made us go back to being pragmatic.
Today was one such occasion, I think. They were pressing high and had a fairly high defensive line. Going direct and using the oace we had was not a bad tactic at all. If we had finished better we should then have been cruising to a win.
After the first two games we clearly abandoned playing out from the back intially until we got some results and confidence. Then we started to focus on possesion. Unfortunately, we again lost key players and that made us go back to being pragmatic.
Today was one such occasion, I think. They were pressing high and had a fairly high defensive line. Going direct and using the oace we had was not a bad tactic at all. If we had finished better we should then have been cruising to a win.
Casemiro was giving the ball away for fun today. We're lucky it didn't cost us more than it did. He also tried a bunch of first time passes that weren't coming off. His long range passing has actually surprised me. It's quite good, but his short passing is pretty average. He's had a few games where he's given a bunch of really easy passes away in dangerous positions.
Bruno also gave it away a lot.
Bruno also gave it away a lot.
You must have missed the Tottenham game then
I agree with people saying it's more of a personnel problem and there's nothing much Ten Hag can do with some of these players.
I like Casemiro but it makes you wonder if buying a midfielder for £60m who contributes to this problem was the best allocation of resources in the summer.
I like Casemiro but it makes you wonder if buying a midfielder for £60m who contributes to this problem was the best allocation of resources in the summer.
Yeah you mean the clubs player of the month just gone?
https://www.manutd.com/en/amp/news/...ed-player-of-the-month-award-for-october-2022
That's a change in personell though isn't it? Dalot and Martinez in and Maguire and AWB has made a huge difference. De Gea looks a lot better I guess if we include him.
Not worried though, still early days and we have shown in some games we are more than capable, just getting consistent in it that's next.
Today, the two biggest issues by far were:
— Without Antony and with Elanga on the right , you shut us down fairly easy. If Antony played, he would have received a lot of passes deep on the right side. Now Fulham just centralized it’s defense and stifled us.
And this effect is like 3x — when you don’t have a right foot at RB. We really missed Antony.
— Bruno must stop to go for the killer ball as much as he does. Listen to ETH’s PC after the Villa game, he really calls it out. And what did he do today? Just keeps going for the Hail Mary pass.
Also, De Gea had quite many poor distributions today.
Ridiculous and false statement.
Fuxk me, no player is allowed an off game around these parts.
He’s been absolutely incredible for the past 6 weeks.
THis one against Fullham (source: whoscored.com). Let see players type of pass, passing rate, and their involvement in game.
- We have a DM and CB who were the worst culprit of long ball to nowhere (look that LB and AccLB), with accuracy 20-30%, with DDG as the next one.
- Then Casemiro's as DM had a nightmare with 67% passing rate, while only creating 1 key pass (compare to Bruno who had similar passing rate but could easily have 4 assists today). And Martinez had his worst passing game, with ~80% as a CB.
- THen look at the wingers in Rashford and Elanga. Rashford wasn't that much involved and didn't create key pass (hmm.., I remember he made a good pass to Malacia's chance), and still have 74% passing rate. Then Elanga's involvement was 15 passes in 54 minutes with no key pass.
- There's McTom playing in midfield with 100% passing rate, but 3 passes in about 40 min. on the pitch.
- We have a DM and CB who were the worst culprit of long ball to nowhere (look that LB and AccLB), with accuracy 20-30%, with DDG as the next one.
- Then Casemiro's as DM had a nightmare with 67% passing rate, while only creating 1 key pass (compare to Bruno who had similar passing rate but could easily have 4 assists today). And Martinez had his worst passing game, with ~80% as a CB.
- THen look at the wingers in Rashford and Elanga. Rashford wasn't that much involved and didn't create key pass (hmm.., I remember he made a good pass to Malacia's chance), and still have 74% passing rate. Then Elanga's involvement was 15 passes in 54 minutes with no key pass.
- There's McTom playing in midfield with 100% passing rate, but 3 passes in about 40 min. on the pitch.
I was about to write something similar.
You cannot expect to hit 65/70% possession just from your midfield and defence. Our forwards, including Bruno and Ronaldo, just cannot keep the ball.
Compare Bruno to De Bruyne and you have your answer.
With Martial and Antony back in the side, I think we'll improve massively in this department but Rashford doesn't have it in him to do possession football. Play Garnacho on the left, Antony on the right and Tony through the middle and I'd be interested to see the result
2 of our better players are notoriously questionable in possession, that one doesn't seem to be going away but today for the most part was the fringe players like Malacia and Elanga. The others couldn't carry what we lost in possession from Dalot and Antony's absence. It just put more of the possession creation burden on players who could do without.
The biggest reason why we’re so bad in possession is because our players are too far away from each other and they’re not very good at ‘getting to a ball’ first. We lose so many duels it’s ridiculous.
Ten Hag can’t be absolved of blame as he sets the team up. When Casemiro receives the ball, a lot of the time Bruno and Eriksen are too far ahead of him.
Our two wide players are also too wide and so the only possible passes open to Casemiro are ‘longer passes’ and if we’re playing a team (as we did today) who have players who are capable of intercepting and pressing then those passes from Casemiro will go incomplete. Against spurs it worked because spurs’ midfield applied no pressure to our midfield. Nobody was combative. Games like today you need your players tighter together when in possession. We don’t seem to be able to get that balance right.
The other thing I’ve noticed is when we play against high line defences we try too much and too soon to play in our forward players and so we concede the ball a lot. Against spurs again that didn’t happen because spurs sat deep so we actually had to think about our passes.
Also Bruno Fernandes is basically the anti christ when it comes to keeping possession. At some stage ETH is going to have to have serious words with this guy about his wasting of possession. Bruno as well as rashford and Elanga are a recipe for disaster when it comes to
Keeping ball possession because they are way too erratic with the ball.
Ten Hag can’t be absolved of blame as he sets the team up. When Casemiro receives the ball, a lot of the time Bruno and Eriksen are too far ahead of him.
Our two wide players are also too wide and so the only possible passes open to Casemiro are ‘longer passes’ and if we’re playing a team (as we did today) who have players who are capable of intercepting and pressing then those passes from Casemiro will go incomplete. Against spurs it worked because spurs’ midfield applied no pressure to our midfield. Nobody was combative. Games like today you need your players tighter together when in possession. We don’t seem to be able to get that balance right.
The other thing I’ve noticed is when we play against high line defences we try too much and too soon to play in our forward players and so we concede the ball a lot. Against spurs again that didn’t happen because spurs sat deep so we actually had to think about our passes.
Also Bruno Fernandes is basically the anti christ when it comes to keeping possession. At some stage ETH is going to have to have serious words with this guy about his wasting of possession. Bruno as well as rashford and Elanga are a recipe for disaster when it comes to
Keeping ball possession because they are way too erratic with the ball.
Not true, we had Greenwood the two years prior and he was a huge threat from the right. What was missing was a good RB at the time.
You only need to look at the players ETH has inherited. Their passing hasn't improved.
The guys he has brought in, they're the players who've improved our passing.
It's undeniable.
So what I said about Dalot and Antony being the threat on the right this season compared to before is actually true then. Glad you agree
Fire Ten Hag and hire Big Sam obviously
Its very much deniable. Stop making absolute statements with no facts at all.
Brunos stats are great but hes a liability. So careless with the ball. Nearly cost us the game against West Ham, back heel flicks on edge of his own box today and wtf was he trying for their goal. Yes his energy and work rate is good, but hes sloppy and some of his decisions are brain dead. needs to be more careful with the ball.
Got to remember as well we have been playing at least 2 games a week for a long period, with a lot of injuries meaning the players who are fit are playing most games, a lot of teams are struggling with this who are in Europe.
It's frustrating when we still hoof it forward yes but I think EtH knows we are better as an counter attacking team so I guess he's trying to not force it, it will come in time hopefully when we have a fully fit squad and reinforcements.
I mean if you look at how much better De Gea is over those early few games it shows we are making progress if slowly.
I mean if you look at how much better De Gea is over those early few games it shows we are making progress if slowly.
Have you not been watching De Gea recently? Varane's has improved too (still not a strength of his) and Dalot is in the form of his life. Bruno is also giving the ball away far far less.
I think occasional long balls from CBs or midfielders are good, as they open up and force their defence to back up a little, but we have been very wasteful lately. The stats you show, that’s 16 lost possessions from 2 players. I’m really wondering if so many long balls are according to the instructions for ETH.THis one against Fullham (source: whoscored.com). Let see players type of pass, passing rate, and their involvement in game.
- We have a DM and CB who were the worst culprit of long ball to nowhere (look that LB and AccLB), with accuracy 20-30%, with DDG as the next one.
- Then Casemiro's as DM had a nightmare with 67% passing rate, while only creating 1 key pass (compare to Bruno who had similar passing rate but could easily have 4 assists today). And Martinez had his worst passing game, with ~80% as a CB.
- THen look at the wingers in Rashford and Elanga. Rashford wasn't that much involved and didn't create key pass (hmm.., I remember he made a good pass to Malacia's chance), and still have 74% passing rate. Then Elanga's involvement was 15 passes in 54 minutes with no key pass.
- There's McTom playing in midfield with 100% passing rate, but 3 passes in about 40 min. on the pitch.
Since Antony went out of the side our safe out ball has gone, that David Silva/Bernardinho/Iniesta ball if you like, and with it the passing stats from our CB’s and midfielders have taken a real hit. So many times today I could see that Casemiro and Martinez had absolutely no options whatsoever, only players under severe pressure. That’s where Antony comes in.
We had a keeper who we all know is awful with his feet, a young left back who’s just joined the club playing at right back, a lightweight centre back with zero pace and struggles being pressed on the pitch and a right sided attacker who is basically in the squad to fill numbers so we were never going to dominate possession today.
Wait til Varane, Dalot and Antony are all back and Martial is hopefully fully fit and see how we are then but we’re 2-3 months into ETH’s reign in which he still wants a ball playing keeper, a deep lying playmaker that can drive forward and a fluid striker that can link play but also get in behind to have a starting 11 in his mould.
Wait til Varane, Dalot and Antony are all back and Martial is hopefully fully fit and see how we are then but we’re 2-3 months into ETH’s reign in which he still wants a ball playing keeper, a deep lying playmaker that can drive forward and a fluid striker that can link play but also get in behind to have a starting 11 in his mould.
I blame it on Maguire, possibly McTominay, maybe Lindelgod or potentially Shaw for being slightly overweight.
Some of the threads that are created and allowed on here are just insane sometimes
Some of the threads that are created and allowed on here are just insane sometimes
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For starters its an opinion but I've tried to back it up by pointing out the players he inherited haven't really improved in terms of passing and ball retention.
You saw midweek, forced to essentially play the same XI Ole had last season, we reverted back to the same football as last season.
The lads we've brought in are responsible for our improved ball retention.
But if you think last seasons first XI have improved with the ball fair enough. To me they look the same.
If we want to improve further, new faces will be required no doubt. You can't coach players in their mid to late 20's to suddenly pass the ball better or have a better first and second touch.
That's why ETH bought a new midfield.
Dalot is the only one who has significantly improved with his use of the ball but I'd suggest that's a young player developing. He's improved at everything.
If ETH had to go back to using the players we had last season, without his new signings, we'd be right back to the terrible passimg we saw before.
Guys this is why ETH and every manager around buys new players. It's why he'll buy even more players who can look after the ball better.
Could be, I haven’t really thought about it in that way. Some of those missed long balls were poor execution when they were pressed, and we need to be calmer under press, But some were without any stress at all, just poor patience.
The two players who had the most were Martinez, because he's basically making everything happen with the ball in the back line, and Casemiro, who gets the ball a fair bit as a main passing option for De Gea and Martinez playing out from the back. They both put a lot of long balls over the top because Fulham was pressing a lot with a lot of players committed forward and a high line. Playing over the top to pacey forwards is exactly how you're supposed to play against that strategy, we just didn't get a goal from it directly, although we came close a few times.
My post was to answer the OP question of why we're still awful in possession. Having a (probably) right strategy but awful execution is why this thread is created, i guess.
We were improving in this regard, but have gone back to bad habits a bit recently.
Some of the decision making by some of our players is criminal.
We'll get there.
Some of the decision making by some of our players is criminal.
We'll get there.
Nope
Agree. Martinez and Antony are 2 of the 4 you correctly point out as fitting possession football and they are 2 of the 3 Ten Hag signings (Malacia the other, let's assume Casemiro wasn't but he said yes spend huge on a quality DM even if it leaves me with less money later, I need one to survive this season). And Eriksen is the other and he's very capable of possession football as a #10 looking to get wide and overload areas with the fullbacks and wingers and hit crosses and through balls, just can't really turn that well and dribble from deep like Ten Hag's first choice for the spot in De Jong.
So my guess is we'll keep playing this sort of football that emphasizes linking up quickly and directly in possession and as we sign more Ten Hag players we'll get more and more possession.
Given the circumstances it's actually great and ton bettet than last year. Of course from time to time it's bad like yesterday but generally there's been a big progression in that department.
Yes, it has.
we spent all of second half being too direct. Its why we sacrificed possession way too easily often