Nope.
The search for a holding/controlling midfielder
- Thread starter bosnian_red
- Start date
Nope.
With all respect I think Keita is superior to Pereira in every way. Show me a more exciting young player and I'll be very surprised. Yeah, he's box-to-box, very attacking player, and with Pogba it would definitely require a 3-man midfield, maybe with Herrera sitting deeper. I'm just not fussed about a controlling midfielder. But if we go 4-3-3 I think it's imperative that 2 of them, ie. Pogba + 1, need to have loads of attacking prowess. Also, he'll bring the agility that we've been missing in midfield since Scholes.
But besides the tactical repercussions, Keita is the kind of player you go a long way to watch. His passing, both short and long range, is brilliant. Like Pogba, he will pose a threat from long shots on goal. He brings other players into the game. He's strong and agile enough sometimes to hold off 2 or 3 tacklers, and still find room to make a nice pass. His balance is supreme, he can move with the ball through traffic very quickly, and often appears untouchable.
There's barely a weakness in his game. I really think we need 2 midfielders anyway. Yeah, he'd step on Pereira's toes, but he'd also make us a better team, so what's more important?
We really need one of each, there is no cover for pogba and Herrera and as you mentioned we lack someone who can hold and be disciplined.
Do you have any suggestions?
We'll need two midfielders. One replacement for the Carrick role and another young prospect who can benefit from filling in the vast number of games being played in the season. Someone like Tielemans, but I doubt he's going to want to be on the bench.
I don't watch Bundesliga and RB Leipzig are not in Europe so I haven't seen him play. I see you're very enthusiastic about him.
I'll have to watch him before I can form an opinion. But yeah, a box-to-box is not really a priority this summer.
Do yourself a favor.
I agree but I don't think we'll get the extra box to box until the summer after, as I see Ander playing less next season and the mop lingering around as weak cover.
Weigl, Fabinho, Casemiro, maybe N'Zonzi.
My dream player in the DM position has been Jorginho from Napoli. Very good positional awareness and so comfortable on the ball. Not really a tackler, more of a reader and interceptionist (is that a word?). A Carrick, more than a Makelele if that makes any sense.
Also he might have fallen out with his coach, or at least something is up with him.
Also he might have fallen out with his coach, or at least something is up with him.
Might have the intelligence and passing range, but for pace and acceleration he makes Carrick seem like Usain Bolt.
I'll take Casemiro then.
What? Are we talking about the same Jorginho? He's not rapid, but I always had him as mid-level speed like Herrera. Definitely faster than Carrick, in my mind.
Only seen him twice but wasn't impressed by his pace or mobility.
Not enough of a basis to form an opinion though and I am mostly talking out of my ass like most of the people suggesting DM\CM names in this thread. A position like that takes some observation to decide on, it isn't like a winger or striker where you can tell if they have "it" after a few matches, or atleast form an opinion.
Fair enough. And I agree with you on extensive observation needed instead of sample matches.
Carrick was a one in a million player. He was a top quality playmaker who was gifted with world class positioning + all that talent was wrapped in a 6ft+ frame. Even so SAF made sure to have defensive minded players to keep balance in CM. Owen Hargreaves, Ji Sung Park, Darren Fletcher, Antonio Valencia and Cleverley are classic examples of what I am saying.
My point is that we can't have a team made solely of great passers of the ball. That will never cut it. Someone, somewhere must be doing the dirty work. Many love to mention Pirlo but the Italian had always been partnered with great workhorses (Gattuso with Italy and AC Milan or Vidal at Juventus).
In my opinion the team is screaming for a defensive midfielder who can tackle and cover as many inches of pitch possible. He would give some composure to CM and he'll protect the defence. Fellaini is a no 10 so he simply can't cut it in that role. Herrera does his share of work but he is simply not a DM.
If we're serious for Griezmann that we need 2 defensive minded CMs to the team, one as a first teamer and the other as cover. Herrera will act as Pogba's cover/competitor with Griezmann, Mkhitaryan and Martial causing havoc behind Ibra
My point is that we can't have a team made solely of great passers of the ball. That will never cut it. Someone, somewhere must be doing the dirty work. Many love to mention Pirlo but the Italian had always been partnered with great workhorses (Gattuso with Italy and AC Milan or Vidal at Juventus).
In my opinion the team is screaming for a defensive midfielder who can tackle and cover as many inches of pitch possible. He would give some composure to CM and he'll protect the defence. Fellaini is a no 10 so he simply can't cut it in that role. Herrera does his share of work but he is simply not a DM.
If we're serious for Griezmann that we need 2 defensive minded CMs to the team, one as a first teamer and the other as cover. Herrera will act as Pogba's cover/competitor with Griezmann, Mkhitaryan and Martial causing havoc behind Ibra
What is up is diawara is better. Jorginho was mediocre at the beginning of the season and lost his place, diawara has done well enough to keep him out.
That's an interesting opinion cause I watched Napoli's last two games and Diawara looked very average as a player. For Jorginho to have lost his place he must have done some criminal stuff that I missed.
Sounds like you're describing someone like Schneiderlin, who Mourinho clearly didn't fancy.
I am describing Zanetti, a Gattuso or Cambiasso tbh. People who owned the midfield with their courage and their workrate. I don't know what happened to Schneiderlin tbh. He seemed to be overwhelmed by the fact he's playing with us. However he was nowhere near to those players
It'd be pretty tricky to great DM of that calibre. Who'd you say is a good fit?
It's not so much about the amount of ground the DM covers, it's more about them having the positional nous to cover the right sections at the right time and actually hold their position behind Pogba, that's why all this "I wish we had Kante" stuff makes no sense to me.
I honestly don't know who can be that player.
What I do believe is that we should be looking at the player's physical and mental attributes rather then his technical attributes. We need somebody who runs all day, who won't allow himself to be bullied and whose got the pace, the stamina and the frame to play in the role. We've already have enough players who can pass the ball.
We need the next Duncan Edwards to slot in to that midfield role. A player with real game intelligence. Somebody who uses his head........
I was going to suggest Tolisso or Dahoud, going completely by their reputations on FIFA 17...
But I googled them and apparently Juventus have already signed Tolisso for €40million and also want Dahoud, which is strange considering they already have so many midfielders...
But I googled them and apparently Juventus have already signed Tolisso for €40million and also want Dahoud, which is strange considering they already have so many midfielders...
I agree and disagree. We should indeed be looking at a CDM who is defensively solid, covers ground quickly, doesn't get bullied on and off the ball and has good positional sense to shield our centre backs when we've been dispossessed and our other midfielders are further forward. But we also need that player, at the least, to have a high percentage short pass accuracy, as we saw earlier in the season, when Carrick wasn't playing Pogba struggled to dictate the game with his passing. So in other words a technically sound CDM, who is strong, quick and defensively strong. I can't think of many available players out there that fit the bill.
Since José has said that we will likely sign only two or three players, you have to make sure that each of them is a 100% fit - because they'll be key starting XI players. Considering that, and the fact that United can realistically afford to spend upwards of £100 million (+ the proceeds from Memphis and Schneiderlin's transfers), it would make sense to sign the best and not settle for one of the rest. From that perspective, the likes of Bakayoko or Koziello or Kessie would be too risky because they're essentially projects who'll take time to develop in that role.
Even if Griezmann is signed for £80 million, you'll have a big surplus in the bank for 1-2 players, so try to offer an amount that Dortmund can't turn down for Weigl (who's the perfect fit and fulfills all of @devilish's criterias):
Check.
2. Gifted with advanced positional awareness:
Check.
3. 6ft+ frame: 187 cm check.
Just do it - the biggest Bundesliga transfer of all time is De Bruyne for £55m, and Weigl is unlikely to cost as much. Even if he does, and you have to spend £50 million, it will not be that much in the long run because he's only 21 years old and could be the Busquets type gold standard holding midfielder of his generation - and from United's perspective, be the perfect long term replacement for Carrick (with the potential to became a better player because he's more press resistant and has great room for growth given his age). We've often been penny wise and pound foolish in recent seasons, so let's address that, especially when the player fits a critical position. He's the most obvious solution by far, and given Dortmund's scouting system they could buy the next talent at the holding midfield position and fit him into the team, whilst pocketing a king's ransom for Weigl.
Even if Griezmann is signed for £80 million, you'll have a big surplus in the bank for 1-2 players, so try to offer an amount that Dortmund can't turn down for Weigl (who's the perfect fit and fulfills all of @devilish's criterias):
1. Top passer:
Check.
2. Gifted with advanced positional awareness:
On the other hand, the two main attributes which seemingly came later in his development were his passing ability and positional intelligence. Both prioritised by Tuchel’s playing philosophy, this comes as little surprise as the manager worked closely with the £1.5m signing. At 1860, his passing lacked the same level of penetration that it does after his first year at Dortmund, whilst the intelligence of his positioning has seen the biggest change.
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/08/26/julian-weigl-dortmunds-most-important-player/
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/08/26/julian-weigl-dortmunds-most-important-player/
Check.
3. 6ft+ frame: 187 cm check.
Just do it - the biggest Bundesliga transfer of all time is De Bruyne for £55m, and Weigl is unlikely to cost as much. Even if he does, and you have to spend £50 million, it will not be that much in the long run because he's only 21 years old and could be the Busquets type gold standard holding midfielder of his generation - and from United's perspective, be the perfect long term replacement for Carrick (with the potential to became a better player because he's more press resistant and has great room for growth given his age). We've often been penny wise and pound foolish in recent seasons, so let's address that, especially when the player fits a critical position. He's the most obvious solution by far, and given Dortmund's scouting system they could buy the next talent at the holding midfield position and fit him into the team, whilst pocketing a king's ransom for Weigl.
The technical aspect is still hugely important, just being a big unit wont help against a hard pressing team, and if the player is techncially average it makes Pogba's job doubly difficult as he's the only out option we have, especially given our CB's can't step out of the defense to help as none of them can pass water.
Don't know who, but we definitely need a midfielder who can put in a tackle without fouling the opposition player every time. Unless we're controlling the game, I get worried when opposition teams get through our midfield with such ease.
Where do you guys always come up with this weard thinking, that Dortmund would sell Weigl for less than De Bruyne? All this text to name a player, who has just extended his contract and is not gettable at all.
Its the right time to sell an aging Aubameyang, cos his worth is prob going down from next summer on, so Dortmund will prob pocket around 80m€ and reinvesting it. Not that they need that money, cos they are debt free and have healthy accounts.
People who think Dortmund would be open to listen to offers for Weigl simple are clueless. He is not for sale. Its really that simple. Also, Weigl is not interested in moving away and wants to stay at Dortmund, thus extended his contract and if the time is right in 2 or 3 years, then good luck fighting it out with Real, Barca, Bayern & Co.
Its just a waste of time and United have no chance to get Weigl in the near future. He is just a muppet dream.
Exactly what I said. I totally forgot about Weigl. He would be a like for like replacement for Carrick, who is currently incredibly important for us. However, there's no chance Dortmund would sell any time soon.
That's a bit ott. One in a million, surely not. Tbh, I'd have rather preferred Xabi Alonso. Apart from these two, Busquets comes to mind immediately. Plus more if you can count the likes of Khedira, a bit younger Schweini etc.
Since José has said that we will likely sign only two or three players, you have to make sure that each of them is a 100% fit - because they'll be key starting XI players. Considering that, and the fact that United can realistically afford to spend upwards of £100 million (+ the proceeds from Memphis and Schneiderlin's transfers), it would make sense to sign the best and not settle for one of the rest. From that perspective, the likes of Bakayoko or Koziello or Kessie would be too risky because they're essentially projects who'll take time to develop in that role.
Even if Griezmann is signed for £80 million, you'll have a big surplus in the bank for 1-2 players, so try to offer an amount that Dortmund can't turn down for Weigl (who's the perfect fit and fulfills all of @devilish's criterias):
1. Top passer:
Check.
2. Gifted with advanced positional awareness:
On the other hand, the two main attributes which seemingly came later in his development were his passing ability and positional intelligence. Both prioritised by Tuchel’s playing philosophy, this comes as little surprise as the manager worked closely with the £1.5m signing. At 1860, his passing lacked the same level of penetration that it does after his first year at Dortmund, whilst the intelligence of his positioning has seen the biggest change.
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/08/26/julian-weigl-dortmunds-most-important-player/
Check.
3. 6ft+ frame: 187 cm check.
Just do it - the biggest Bundesliga transfer of all time is De Bruyne for £55m, and Weigl is unlikely to cost as much. Even if he does, and you have to spend £50 million, it will not be that much in the long run because he's only 21 years old and could be the Busquets type gold standard holding midfielder of his generation - and from United's perspective, be the perfect long term replacement for Carrick (with the potential to became a better player because he's more press resistant and has great room for growth given his age). We've often been penny wise and pound foolish in recent seasons, so let's address that, especially when the player fits a critical position. He's the most obvious solution by far, and given Dortmund's scouting system they could buy the next talent at the holding midfield position and fit him into the team, whilst pocketing a king's ransom for Weigl.
How does Paredes qualitatively compare to Weigl in your opinion? BTW, the below link suggests that Paredes has all the makings of a top-class regista.
http://www.eatsleepdrinkfootball.co...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
I don't think Khedira and Busquets have the passing range Carrick have. Xabi has it but he's not as defensive sound as Carrick was. You're right about Schweini though
For Passing, I'd rate them Alonso > Carrick > Busquets
For Defense, I'd rate them Busquets > Alonso = Carrick
Somehow I had this impression, Alonso has more control over running of the game than Carrick.
I prefer Carrick for defence then Alonso
However that's not the point I wanted to make. My point was that even with Carrick in the team, SAF always made sure he had men able to do the leg work. In fact we had Hargreaves, Fletcher, Cleverley, Park and Valencia in the team. Its good to have great passers of the ball but we also need people to win the damn thing
I dare to say that Carrick was meant to be Scholes replacement rather then Keano's. Think about it. A year after we bought Carrick, SAF went on buying Owen Hargreaves whom (together with Fletcher) were quite solid DMs. Scholes is in fact a magnificent exception to the case in SAF's CM who traditionally relied on 2 hardworking CMs (Robson-Ince, Ince-Keane, Keane-Butt). We know that SAF initially saw Scholes as no 10, an idea he insisted upon till quite late in Scholes career (in matter of fact we bought JSV) until it was evident that the ginger prince was simply too good to move him elsewhere. Things changed once Scholes defied age logic + Hargreaves/Fletch were quite unfortunate with sickness and injuries
I don't think it's that direct a comparison to make. You need to account for the change in tactics, 4-4-2 during Fergie years to the 4-2-3-1/4-3-3/Hybrid that we are using now.
In a 4-2-3-1, we can have a duo of DM's one for workrate and recovery and other for pass and run the game. But when you have your 2 MFs are Pogba and Herrera, neither are suitable to that role. You need a one man pivot DM like Makelele or Nobby Stiles to get this formation to be effective, a midfield destroyer to be precise. Just cut off passes, tackle the shite out of opponents and then play a simple pass to Pogba/Herrera to work their magic. A Pogba-Carrick-Herrera for all their finesse leaves lot to de desired in terms of defensive stability.
Fergie era was defined by Keane who was a one man midfield himself. He I would say is a one in a million player, someone like him, we may never see again. I'll admit I was honestly confused about what formation we were playing under post Keane Fergie. Take out 2006-09 era for example, we played a vareity of formations from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 to 4-5-1 to something mix and match.
.........Anderson.......
...Scholes....Carrick...
Whenever we had Hargo available we had below with Rooney dropping back to bridge the lack of mobility.
................Rooney...............
..Carrick...Scholes...Hargo.....
None of the teams were what you can consider as defensively astute. Rooney and Tevez did the dirty work in the middle and we just flooded the DM with static players like aged Scholes and Giggs, Carrick and Hargo and other misfits like Anderson. The beauty was in the front 3 and we had that awesome defensive trio of Evra, Rio & Vidic to fall back on.
Since José has said that we will likely sign only two or three players, you have to make sure that each of them is a 100% fit - because they'll be key starting XI players. Considering that, and the fact that United can realistically afford to spend upwards of £100 million (+ the proceeds from Memphis and Schneiderlin's transfers), it would make sense to sign the best and not settle for one of the rest. From that perspective, the likes of Bakayoko or Koziello or Kessie would be too risky because they're essentially projects who'll take time to develop in that role.
Even if Griezmann is signed for £80 million, you'll have a big surplus in the bank for 1-2 players, so try to offer an amount that Dortmund can't turn down for Weigl (who's the perfect fit and fulfills all of @devilish's criterias):
1. Top passer:
Check.
2. Gifted with advanced positional awareness:
On the other hand, the two main attributes which seemingly came later in his development were his passing ability and positional intelligence. Both prioritised by Tuchel’s playing philosophy, this comes as little surprise as the manager worked closely with the £1.5m signing. At 1860, his passing lacked the same level of penetration that it does after his first year at Dortmund, whilst the intelligence of his positioning has seen the biggest change.
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/08/26/julian-weigl-dortmunds-most-important-player/
Check.
3. 6ft+ frame: 187 cm check.
Just do it - the biggest Bundesliga transfer of all time is De Bruyne for £55m, and Weigl is unlikely to cost as much. Even if he does, and you have to spend £50 million, it will not be that much in the long run because he's only 21 years old and could be the Busquets type gold standard holding midfielder of his generation - and from United's perspective, be the perfect long term replacement for Carrick (with the potential to became a better player because he's more press resistant and has great room for growth given his age). We've often been penny wise and pound foolish in recent seasons, so let's address that, especially when the player fits a critical position. He's the most obvious solution by far, and given Dortmund's scouting system they could buy the next talent at the holding midfield position and fit him into the team, whilst pocketing a king's ransom for Weigl.
You just spend several paragraphs on expressing how special Weigl is and then your solution for us is just "finding the next one"? Yeah, not gonna happen. We just keep the current one on his contract which is still running for four additional years. A transfer this Summer was already unlikely on his old contract, but the extension in Winter took him completely off the table. The guy is integral for our style (which why he pretty much always plays) by giving the whole construct balance- Selling him just after extending his contract and jeopardizing our success on the pitch would go compeltely against our club´s policy.
We were never a club about maximizing profit under the current leadership and always about getting the most out of the contracts of the top players. That is the main reason why we stayed relevant amongst far richer clubs. Aubameyang might (and given Real´s lack of interest in him this is far from being a given) become the first player in ages we would sell with more than one remaining year on contract and Auba was at the club for far longer and quite frankly I rate our chances of finding a good new main striker far better than finding the next Weigl.
If we talk about prices, Weigl would cost tripple digits this summer not because of his value in the market but his importance for the club. And that is not even considering Weigl himself, who made a pretty strong statement about wanting to stay at the club by giving his signature under his new deal. He would also be well advised to stay put for a couple of years, because there is pretty much no tactical system which gives his role as much weight as ours. The guy has all the time in the world.
I get that. Infact, I don't truly believe that there's a chance, either:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/wha...-uniteds-starting-xi-most-next-season.425221/
He's as important to your setup (or even moreso) as Busquets is to Barcelona's, and finding a replacement will be an uphill task, and Zorc said 'he will play for us for a long time', and he's on a big contract that was recently extended, and no supporter wants to see players from their club being suggested as transfer targets (at whatever price), and it would be in Weigl's interest to stay at Dortmund and develop further, and he's not ready for say Madrid, and Dortmund didn't sell Reus and co. But that's from the perspective of Dortmund, or maybe even from a neutral and rational one. From United's perspective, there's no harm in giving the signing a real go and sounding a potentially 0.0001% possibility out (which could also help us in the future - because sometimes transfers develop over 1-2 seasons after initial interest is expressed), instead of having a defeatist attitude and just presuming that he's unattainable.
The worst that could happen is we spend May-July barking up the wrong tree and Dortmund not relenting or telling us to piss off repeatedly, before we sign Fabinho or Kessie or whoever in August. Rather that - after having atleast tried and evidenced the intent to sign the best possible option in terms of skillset and fit as a long term replacement for Carrick, than targeting lower tier alternatives to begin with (because I do not have enough faith in our scouting or decision-making team to suggest the right type of midfielder after having spent £200 million on midfielders - and unearthing just 2 medium to long term solutions in Herrera and Pogba - for reference, I'd rather we signed Paredes or tried for even Marcos Llorente from Madrid than a pure defensive midfielder, but that's unlikely to happen). One of our 2-3 total signings is not going to be very difficult because the groundwork has been laid and he has a set clause at Atlético (Griezmann), so we'll have all summer to negotiate for the other 1-2.
In a similar vein, I'd also want us to harangue Juventus for Bonucci (who's also considered to be off the table, despite the minor with Allegri), instead of targeting a lower tier centerback from the start. That deal might not come off either, but again, atleast you gave it an old college try before moving on to options 2, 3, or 4 - who're all weaker than Bonucci.
Paredes is a lovely option and I like him a lot, but he'll be a bit more risky because he's not as good as Weigl in defensive terms yet and might never be (though to be fair, Weigl's exceptionally mature on the field for his age, so the bar in set really high) - and after transitioning from #10 to DLP, he's not had enough time to refine his craft with regular playing time (Roma usually play Strootman-De Rossi behind Naingollan with Paredes often coming on as a sub - which was further disrupted by his injury in the winter). Will be really happy if we sign him because his potential is immense, but I just can't see him being on José's radar because he's still a bit raw in terms of positional discipline and is more of a project that José will have to fix in relative terms because his defensive game needs more improvement than Weigl's (who's already rather good).
I agree fully. Hence why I highlighted the fact that even with prime Carrick on board, United had always made sure to have enough workhorses to add steel if needed (Valencia, Park, Hargreaves, Fletcher, Clev etc). Its nice (and important) to have good passers of the ball. However for a team to pass the ball it must first win the damn thing.
You also described Keano perfectly. While I acknowledge that, the treble team was possibly the most attacking minded team we had throughout SAF's reign its also wrong to think that Keane did all the defending himself. Keane was helped by an absolutely superb defense which what way better to the present one we've got + Beckham and Giggs (especially the former) provided more defensive cover then most our wingers do
In my opinion we've already got enough great passers of the ball, especially if we get Griezmann. What we need is somebody to win the ball. It may be a Makalele type or a Gattuso type however we need that player.
I think Keane and Scholes were the best midfield pairing we´ve had and the third great United midfielder would be Bryan Robson. Both Keane and Robson were box to box midfielders rather than DM and Scholes was a pure playmaker. I think getting Kroos for Carrick would be great and suggested by Scholes himself in a interview last week. I would also like us to sign Nainggolan from Roma and would love to see Pogba-Kroos-Nainggolan in a midfield 3 that would be able to outpass most teams plus having a lot of power and attacking options. Weigl from Dortmund is a very good player and he could also be an option. We must also get a leftback (hopefully Shaw will come good again) and a proper right winger.