The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
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Been pretty obvious to me for a while now that we've really needed one. A midfielder that can control games for us, dictate them with his passing and all that. Whoever watched Pogba before knew that he wasn't this type of player, so he didn't solve that problem for me. The only player we have in our squad capable of doing this is Carrick who is 35 years old I think? Daley Blind has a pretty similar skill set, though I'm not sure if he can adapt properly to the pace of the game and not having as much space as he has in the back line. Schneiderlin is a nothing player, Fellaini doesn't have the talent for it, while Herrera hasn't ever really been that type of player either (though might be our best option for it until we get one).

Problem is looking around at what players are available, and I have no idea who would be a realistic choice to sign in that position. We missed out on Pjanic, Xhaka and Gundogan who were excellent options for that role. Other options like Modric, Kroos, Verratti aren't realistic at all, while Bayern uses Xabi Alonso who is also probably on his last legs to fill that role. So who do we sign to be the midfielder who can dictate the tempo of games for us? Scholes said it today as well that it's what we still need and what will probably help get the best out of Pogba. Actually I think @sullydnl said it perfectly in the other thread. Pogba probably has the potential to turn into something like what Gerrard was at his best and that's undoubtedly a world class player. But you won't see him at his best without someone like Xabi Alonso next to him like he had at Liverpool.
 
Thinking about it, Gerrard had Xabi Alonso and Mascherano alongside him in that Liverpool team. Thank Christ Benitez was their manager. :lol:

But yeah, that sort of player is exactly what our midfield is lacking.
 
If we're looking for a controlling midfielder, I think we should go with experience. Not many young players can come in and control a game from deep -- Verratti could, but PSG are never selling him. Jose knows the value of experience, so I think getting a player in for a couple of seasons would be fine. All we need is a seasoned veteran who won't need time to adapt and who isn't injury prone.
 
I'd love to see TFM given the chance.
He was brilliant the games he got last year.
Rashford is rated higher by most, cause he scored lots of goals, but i can't remember seeing TFM doing mistakes.
In my opinion, TFM is just a big a talent as Rashford, and is perfect as CDM.
That being said, i think Mourinho prefers more experienced players in that position.
 
Verratti is obviously the dream choice, but like others have said, not attainable. Would Weigl be realistic? He's very young and Dortmund do well to hold on to their players for a while at least. Can't see him leaving just yet. Definitely the right type of player.

Grylte said:
I'd love to see TFM given the chance.
He was brilliant the games he got last year.
Rashford is rated higher by most, cause he scored lots of goals, but i can't remember seeing TFM doing mistakes.
In my opinion, TFM is just a big a talent as Rashford, and is perfect as CDM.
That being said, i think Mourinho prefers more experienced players in that position.
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Fosu Mensah isn't that type of player at all. He would be like a center back playing there, but when you look at all the best teams, they have players capable of play making in that position basically. Some exceptions of course, and the system can change, but one of the 3 in midfield generally needs to be someone who can dictate games and since Pogba is not that, it has to be one of the other 2. I prefer it being the deeper one as that enables the team to have another more attacking player in front next to Pogba, whereas if that player is the controlling type, then behind them we just have a defensive mid who won't contribute much to the build up of games. TFM has potential, but long term I see that being at center back, not in midfield or right back.
 
So strange that signings keep being made for the past 3 years, yet there's always still something the team is searching for/lacking :wenger:
 
I've been so repetitive about it, it's been clearly the most important position we've needed to strengthen for years and haven't done it. It was bizarre to hear people after the first 3 league wins say we didn't need one because "Fellaini was doing a good job there" and "Herrera can hold". The last few years have taught us to accept mediocrity.

Pogba was one half of the midfield structure sorted. The next is a real number 6. There's simply no alternative for the need of a holding midfielder that controls the tempo of the game.

There needs to be a distinction though. A controlling midfielder doesn't have to be a holding one, and the opposite isn't the case either. Each team adds to what it already has in terms of the midfield. Gundogan is a controlling midfielder in the way he plays but isn't a holder. It's the same for Modric, Real's holder is Kroos, and sometimes Casemiro. Busquets is a holder, but I wouldn't say he controls games per se through his technique and passing.

Because of our current midfield composition, and because of Pogba's qualities, what we need is a midfielder that is both a controller and a holder. This used to be Carrick. Someone like Alonso, Verratti or Kroos. Both are obviously unavailable. We need a holding passer, and the only player who I see can develop into a player good enough for where we want to be, that is somewhat attainable in the next few years is Julian Weigl.
 
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Idrissa Gueye if he keeps it up.

Whoever Mou decides to bring in, I'm for it. He knows how to build title winning teams.
 
bosnian_red said:
Verratti is obviously the dream choice, but like others have said, not attainable. Would Weigl be realistic? He's very young and Dortmund do well to hold on to their players for a while at least. Can't see him leaving just yet. Definitely the right type of player.
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He's young but already showing enough to make a big bid worthwhile IMO, and beyond him I don't know where we look, Ruben Neves is another with potential but is less developed than Weigl.
 
bosnian_red said:
Verratti is obviously the dream choice, but like others have said, not attainable. Would Weigl be realistic? He's very young and Dortmund do well to hold on to their players for a while at least. Can't see him leaving just yet. Definitely the right type of player.


Fosu Mensah isn't that type of player at all. He would be like a center back playing there, but when you look at all the best teams, they have players capable of play making in that position basically. Some exceptions of course, and the system can change, but one of the 3 in midfield generally needs to be someone who can dictate games and since Pogba is not that, it has to be one of the other 2. I prefer it being the deeper one as that enables the team to have another more attacking player in front next to Pogba, whereas if that player is the controlling type, then behind them we just have a defensive mid who won't contribute much to the build up of games. TFM has potential, but long term I see that being at center back, not in midfield or right back.
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Mourinho plays with

-----Rooney
B2B---------DM

So a player like TFM doesn't really fit in the system.

But the way most here , and myself, seem to want to play


B2B---------Playmaker
-------DM

TFM or Kante, would fit alot better as DM.
With Pogba and Herrera ahead as B2B and Playmaker.
 
We're essentially looking for a deep-lying playmaker. Scholes in his later years, Pirlo, Xavi, etc. There aren't many of these players around -- the type that know which pass to play before the ball gets to their feet. The ones who don't always get the assist, but often make the pass that enables the assist. It's probably the most difficult position to fill because these players can shape an entire team's performance.
 
Don't need one. We have enough options at the club. The problem is getting the right combinations on the pitch which at present, things are disjointed all over the pitch. Sadly zero preseason means we are having to work this out game by game....
 
Rory 7 said:
He controls the game through his leadership qualities. Who is our leader in midfield?
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Leadership? Can't say I would class him as that either, and no, we don't have a leader in midfield, Herrera tried his best to be that, but leadership in midfield vs the ability to dictate the tempo of the game is two different things.
 
Devil may care said:
Leadership? Can't say I would class him as that either, and no, we don't have a leader in midfield, Herrera tried his best to be that, but leadership in midfield vs the ability to dictate the tempo of the game is two different things.
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Not really. Leaders often dictate. They are called dictators. Keane dictated the tempo for example. So did Bastian at his best.
 
Grylte said:
Mourinho plays with

-----Rooney
B2B---------DM

So a player like TFM doesn't really fit in the system.

But the way most here , and myself, seem to want to play


B2B---------Playmaker
-------DM

TFM or Kante, would fit alot better as DM.
With Pogba and Herrera ahead as B2B and Playmaker.
Click to expand...

The playmaker can be one of the #8's for sure and have the holder be more of a pure DM, Real Madrid play this way, however neither Pogba or Herrera are playmaker's.

Wilson Litchmore said:
Don't need one. We have enough options at the club. The problem is getting the right combinations on the pitch which at present, things are disjointed all over the pitch. Sadly zero preseason means we are having to work this out game by game....
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Who are all these options? Carrick is the only CM we have with a quality passing game.
 
Rory 7 said:
Not really. Leaders often dictate. They are called dictators. Keane dictated the tempo for example.
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Keane was a monstrous man with unmatched intensity who was also a very accurate and astute user of the ball, I don't see that in Kante. He's a great ankle biter who is a good foil next to a more cultured CM that can control the game with his use of the ball.
 
Devil may care said:
The playmaker can be one of the #8's for sure and have the holder be more of a pure DM, Real Madrid play this way, however neither Pogba or Herrera are playmaker's.



Who are all these options? Carrick is the only CM we have with a quality passing game.
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Agree with your face.
We don't really have good options, Carrick is a good shout, but not in the #8 playmaker role, as he falls back and play more as 6.
We saw last season that Rooney shouldn't be there.
If we just had Di Maria still :)
Maybe Mata or Micky?
Might not be good enough defensively.
Bring Pereira back ;)

Pogba-----Pereira
-------TFM

Think that might work for the future, Mou likes Pereira too.
All from academy...ish :)
 
Devil may care said:
The playmaker can be one of the #8's for sure and have the holder be more of a pure DM, Real Madrid play this way, however neither Pogba or Herrera are playmaker's.



Who are all these options? Carrick is the only CM we have with a quality passing game.
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Depends how you intend to play them. Despite the haters, Felliani has not but a foot wrong this season and wasn't that bad the end of the last one. The problem for me is there is no system at the moment, and the team looks disjointed. Jose doesn't know his best team and zero pre-season didn't help...
 
Devil may care said:
Keane was a monstrous man with unmatched intensity who was also a very accurate and astute user of the ball, I don't see that in Kante. He's a great ankle biter who is a good foil next to a more cultured CM that can control the game with his use of the ball.
Click to expand...

I think you are under rating Kante. He's no Keane but he'd help our midfield.
 
Rory 7 said:
I think you are under rating Kante. He's no Keane but he'd help our midfield.
Click to expand...

We have Herrera, Fellaini and Schneiderlin all doing the same, is Kante better? Pick your poison, but he wouldn't alter the fact we'd still need a playmaker, therre isn't a single top side that doesn't have one.
 
Though, thinking about it, Mourinho has managed without that Verratti type player in the past hasn't he?

Take the Makelele/Essien/Lampard midfield of his earlier Chelsea side. It's a strong and effective midfield but one without someone quite of the mold we're discussing in this thread.
 
Devil may care said:
We have Herrera, Fellaini and Schneiderlin all doing the same, is Kante better? Pick your poison, but he wouldn't alter the fact we'd still need a playmaker, therre isn't a single top side that doesn't have one.
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I'd prefer Kante to all three of those. I think he's more dynamic. Playmaker? To be fair you can't say we haven't spent on that position.
 
NYAS said:
I've been so repetitive about it, it's been clearly the most important position we've needed to strengthen for years and haven't done it. It was bizarre to hear people after the first 3 league wins say we didn't need one because "Fellaini was doing a good job there" and "Herrera can hold". The last few years have taught us to accept mediocrity.

Pogba was one half of the midfield structure sorted. The next is a real number 6. There's simply no alternative for the need of a holding midfielder that controls the tempo of the game.

There needs to be a distinction though. A controlling midfielder doesn't have to be a holding one, and the opposite isn't the case either. Each team adds to what it already has in terms of the midfield. Gundogan is a controlling midfielder in the way he plays but isn't a holder. It's the same for Modric, Real's holder is Kroos, and sometimes Casemiro. Busquets is a holder, but I wouldn't say he controls games per se through his technique and passing.

Because of our current midfield composition, and because of Pogba's qualities, what we need is a midfielder that is both a controller and a holder. This used to be Carrick. Someone like Alonso, Verratti or Kroos. Both are obviously unavailable. We need a holding passer, and the only player who I see can develop into a player good enough for where we want to be, that is somewhat attainable in the next few years is Julian Weigl.
Click to expand...
This sums it up perfectly IMO. Like you say, the holding mid doesn't always have to be the controlling guy, but to go with Pogba, what best suits him and our future prospects is combo of the two like Carrick was before, or the others you mentioned. Blind I'm hoping can do a good enough role there, but we have to see if Mourinho tries him there. He has the potential skill set for it, but I'm just hesitant on whether he has the awareness and positional sense for it. It's not like he's any less athletic then Carrick, it's just a case of playing that role naturally and being able to translate how he plays at the back to doing it in midfield.
 
This has been discussed on here many times before. This is a position we needed to strengthen seeing how Carrick struggled at times last season. And we don't have another player who can play this role as good as Carrick. Schweini holds far too long onto the ball and while Blind has other attributes, he's less mobile than a 35-year old Carrick. He can read the game damn good but still I fear his lack of mobility can be an issue although there is no harm in trying him there for now. If he does well then it's great otherwise it just makes the purchase of a DLPM more urgent.

Personally I'd love to have Weigl here but can't see him moving in a year or two but he's more gettable than someone like Verratti.
 
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