The Road Trip Draft

harms said:
I think lately he had moved to the second tier of number 10s — behind Maradona (arguably in a tier of his own), Zico and Platini, perhaps unjustly so. For a long time I thought that he was overrated, but now it's definitely the other way round.
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Yep. Its a cycle.

After a while, underrated players become overrated and overrated players become underrated.
 
The Red Viper said:
Yep. Its a cycle.

After a while, underrated players become overrated and overrated players become underrated.
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Zidanes body of work as a player and Manager combined might be the GOAT?
 
Moby said:
Beckenbauer merchants won't let you breathe for saying that.
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I'd put Cruyff in the first place by some margin. His legacy as a manager is huge, despite Beckenbauer winning the World Cup (hm, I've seen this argument somewhere).

edit:
Moby said:
Cruyff's post playing career shits over Beckenbauer. As does Zidane's.
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Agree on the first, don't know about the second, I'd have them somewhere on the same level. Zidane still has lots of time to overcome him though.
 
Don Alfredo said:
Zidane is obviously a big name, but if all managers avoid to pick him for 50 picks straight, then doesn't this just shows that he isn't rated in the same ballpark as those first round picks?

I mean there has been a time where many/some people held the opinion that Zidane is better than Platini, and now Platini is pick number 8 and Zidane pick number 52.
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First of all, I wouldn't give such importance to our little congregation here. Picking and building around Zidane in round 1 is perfectly reasonable. Some will go for Zico or Platini, but it's still a matter of personal rating and preference when it comes to them imo.

Picking him in round 4 and picking on top of Matthaus, Rijkaard, and Moore is just crazy.
 
Zidane is hugely underrated in these drafts. Wasn’t always this way and in the one of the first ever drafts for players born in the 70s, Zidane was picked ahead of Brazilian Ronaldo as first pick (by antohan).

Posted in a thread previously part of why I think he’s underrated. In my opinion there’s a reaction from knowledgeable football fans because the average fan on the street probably overrates him, due to him excelling on the stages where lots of the general public saw him (most obviously 1998) which is also occurred when football media seemed to go up a level.

Theon said:
Love Zidane - I think he’s an extremely interesting player as his reputation has seemed to take a real hit in recent years.

There’s almost this revisionist view of Zidane which portrays him as overly inconsistent and often ineffectual for both Juve and Madrid. I think part of that is (quite rightly) due to a reappraisal of his Madrid Galactico stint in which he won one league title in five years. I think the other part is that his rise came at a time in which football and pop culture seemed to reach a crescendo (which is still going) and from my perspective at least both Zidane and Fenomeno were a new kind of superstar - with more mainstream appeal that players like Baggio, Romario or Laudrup had hit previously.

I think there’s a bit of a hipster reaction to that broad popularity.
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Awarding 1 point for each;

Champions league win as player or coach
International tournament win as player of coach
Ballon d’or/FWPOTY awards

Beckenbauer= 8 points
Cruyff= 7 points
Zidane = 9 points
 
harms said:
Zidane still has lots of time to overcome him though.
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How is Beckenbauer's WC win anywhere near Zidane creating history twice by defending the CL? NT football coaching is nowhere as difficult as club football, and winning the CL 3 times is far beyond anything Beckenbauer ever achieved.
 
Moby said:
How is Beckenbauer's WC win anywhere near Zidane creating history twice by defending the CL? NT football coaching is nowhere as difficult as club football, and winning the CL 3 times is far beyond anything Beckenbauer ever achieved.
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I think that Zidane had done very well by keeping players motivated and not fecking up with the tactics but he was hardly the most influential figure in that team. Cristiano, Ramos, Modric and Marcelo all contributed more in my book.

I don't consider Zidane one of the greatest modern managers at the moment — like Pep, Jose or Ancelotti. In the same way that you don't (well, I don't) rate Miguel Muñoz as one of the greatest managers of all-time, for example. He has done well but he's had the best squad in the world and a lot of luck on his side (pretty much everything went Madrid's way in those CL campaigns) — while also failing to win 2 of 3 La Liga titles in that period.

Same is true for Beckenbauer — he doesn't belong in the highest eschalon of managers, but overall, including his superior playing career, I'd rate him higher.
 
@harms none of those won 3 CL in a row, Especially Pep who had arguably the best team of all time at his disposal with that Barca 08-11 side.

Never underestimate respect as a prerequisite for manager success, those Real Madrid players had it in spades for zidane. To not consider him a great modern manager is blasphemist to the sport.
 
Arbitrium said:
Awarding 1 point for each;

Champions league win as player or coach
International tournament win as player of coach
Ballon d’or/FWPOTY awards

Beckenbauer= 8 points
Cruyff= 7 points
Zidane = 9 points
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League wins as a player and a coach
Beckenbauer - 10
Zidane - 4
Cruyff - 14

I mean you can reach any result if you want to by fixing this comparison matrix. Add 5 points for a stylishly balding head, for example.
 
harms said:
League wins as a player and a coach
Beckenbauer - 10
Zidane - 4
Cruyff - 14

I mean you can reach any result if you want to by fixing this comparison matrix. Add 5 points for a stylishly balding head, for example.
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I included the things the modern day fan Seems to care more about.

The strength of serie A in the 90s is a valid reason for zidane to not have won more with Juventus but 1 la liga title is massively disappointing for him given the supporting cast he had.
 
Arbitrium said:
@harms none of those won 3 CL in a row, Especially Pep who had arguably the best team of all time at his disposal with that Barca 08-11 side.
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Yeah, because Pep winning 2 and missing a final appearance because of the questionable refereeing in 3 years is hugely different.

The Guardian said:
90 + 1 min: Barcelona score the important goal courtesy of Bojan, but it's disallowed because of a Yaya Toure handball in the build-up. That's a harsh decision - it was very much ball-to-hand as an attempted clearance struck him after being fired from point-blank range; there was nothing he could do about it.
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Not really interested in arguing with you on this point though. Barca themselves were very lucky to get to the 2009 final, but still, they were one whistle away from winning 3 in a row (I don't really believe in Bayern winning it against them).

Zidane's Madrid had pretty much every major decision ruled for them. I'm not hinting at the conspiracy, but that's the luck factor:
https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...reeing-decisions-went-in-real-madrid-s-favour
https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/why...-robbery-in-europe/1nfc4uhb61x011l1bwl0r500at
 
harms said:
I think that Zidane had done very well by keeping players motivated and not fecking up with the tactics but he was hardly the most influential figure in that team. Cristiano, Ramos, Modric and Marcelo all contributed more in my book.

I don't consider Zidane one of the greatest modern managers at the moment — like Pep, Jose or Ancelotti. In the same way that you don't (well, I don't) rate Miguel Muñoz as one of the greatest managers of all-time, for example. He has done well but he's had the best squad in the world and a lot of luck on his side (pretty much everything went Madrid's way in those CL campaigns) — while also failing to win 2 of 3 La Liga titles in that period.

Same is true for Beckenbauer — he doesn't belong in the highest eschalon of managers, but overall, including his superior playing career, I'd rate him higher.
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I specifically mentioned post playing career in my post. You can have whatever impression and assumptions of who had a bigger influence but he took a disjoint team under Benitez and defeated every team in CL KOs for 3 seasons in a row which requires a bit more than motivation, especially not getting found out, having an answer to different tactics and setups and instilling the mentality that has made that team invincible in Europe.

That's literally what he has achieved and no other manager including peak Barca under Pep has. There's no room for a debate in there.

harms said:
Yeah, because Pep winning 2 and missing a final appearance because of the questionable refereeing in 3 years is hugely different.

Not really interested in arguing with you on this point though. Barca themselves were very lucky to get to the 2009 final, but still, they were one whistle away from winning 3 in a row (I don't really believe in Bayern winning it against them).
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Arguing using hypotheticals against actual reality. It's massively different getting knocked out in the semis to actually winning the thing. The final hurdle is the hardest and you get most points for crossing that. Barca got knocked out for not having an answer to Inter's tactics or having a plan B, same thing happened two years later vs Chelsea.

Plenty have come close, Fergie had 3 finals in 4 years but Zidane's the only one who has defended it not once but twice in the modern era, period.
 
1. Himannv - 1. Pelé (16) 2. H. Chumpitaz 3. Cafu (9)
2. Jim Beam - 1. J. Cruyff (12) 2. B. Schweinsteiger (3) 3. R. Gullit (3)
3. Enigma / TRV - 1. L. Messi (2) 2. Ronaldinho (10) 3. F. Redondo (1)
4. harms 1. D. Maradona (1) 2. E. Figueroa (2) FIT 3. P. Maldini (0)
5. P-Nut0712 1. L. Ronaldo (38) 2. D. Passarella (71) 3. Socrates (119)
6. Skizzo/Pat 1. F. Beckenbauer (124) 2. M. Desailly (47) 3. G. Muller (1)
7. Moby 1. C. Ronaldo (117) 2. A. Iniesta (174) 3. L. Figo (8)
8. willhse456 1. M. Platini (10) 2. Rummenigge (10) 3. M. van Basten (36)
9. Edgar/Allan/Pillow 1. A. Di Stefano (119) 2. Zico (93) 3. J.M. Moreno (210) FIT 4. Gento
10. Indnyc 1. G. Best (12) 2. B. Charlton (2) 3. D. Law (7) 4. R. Keane (4)
11. Sjor Bepo 1. Eusebio (11) 2. Xavi (10) 3. G. Scirea (10) 4. T. Henry (1)
12. MJJ - 1. Garrincha (434) 2. J. Zanetti (10) 3. PR Falcao (10) 4. J.L. Andrade (10)
13. Gio - 1. L. Matthäus (10) 2. F. Rijkaard (28) 3. B. Moore (10) 4. Z. Zidane (35)
14. Don Alfredo - 1. Romario (10) 2. O. Varela (1) FIT 3. B. Robson (10) 4. R. Krol (4)
15. Michaelf7777777 1. F. Puskas (6) 2. L. Modric (10) 3. J Bozsik (57) 4. J. Popluhar (3)
16. Arbitrium- 1. Baresi 2. L. Thuram (312) 3. A. Nesta 4. C. Makelele (447)

@willhse456
 
harms said:
I think that Zidane had done very well by keeping players motivated and not fecking up with the tactics but he was hardly the most influential figure in that team. Cristiano, Ramos, Modric and Marcelo all contributed more in my book.
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They were all there pre-Zidane and didn't achieve nothing. Zidane deserves the credit for doing something that has never been done before!
 
Will go for Rio Ferdinand as my next pick.

1. Himannv - 1. Pelé (16) 2. H. Chumpitaz 3. Cafu (9)
2. Jim Beam - 1. J. Cruyff (12) 2. B. Schweinsteiger (3) 3. R. Gullit (3)
3. Enigma / TRV - 1. L. Messi (2) 2. Ronaldinho (10) 3. F. Redondo (1)
4. harms 1. D. Maradona (1) 2. E. Figueroa (2) FIT 3. P. Maldini (0)
5. P-Nut0712 1. L. Ronaldo (38) 2. D. Passarella (71) 3. Socrates (119)
6. Skizzo/Pat 1. F. Beckenbauer (124) 2. M. Desailly (47) 3. G. Muller (1)
7. Moby 1. C. Ronaldo (117) 2. A. Iniesta (174) 3. L. Figo (8)
8. willhse456 1. M. Platini (10) 2. Rummenigge (10) 3. M. van Basten (36) 4. R. Ferdinand (14)
9. Edgar/Allan/Pillow 1. A. Di Stefano (119) 2. Zico (93) 3. J.M. Moreno (210) FIT 4. Gento
10. Indnyc 1. G. Best (12) 2. B. Charlton (2) 3. D. Law (7) 4. R. Keane (4)
11. Sjor Bepo 1. Eusebio (11) 2. Xavi (10) 3. G. Scirea (10) 4. T. Henry (1)
12. MJJ - 1. Garrincha (434) 2. J. Zanetti (10) 3. PR Falcao (10) 4. J.L. Andrade (10)
13. Gio - 1. L. Matthäus (10) 2. F. Rijkaard (28) 3. B. Moore (10) 4. Z. Zidane (35)
14. Don Alfredo - 1. Romario (10) 2. O. Varela (1) FIT 3. B. Robson (10) 4. R. Krol (4)
15. Michaelf7777777 1. F. Puskas (6) 2. L. Modric (10) 3. J Bozsik (57) 4. J. Popluhar (3)
16. Arbitrium- 1. Baresi 2. L. Thuram (312) 3. A. Nesta 4. C. Makelele (447)

@Moby
 
1. Himannv - 1. Pelé (16) 2. H. Chumpitaz 3. Cafu (9)
2. Jim Beam - 1. J. Cruyff (12) 2. B. Schweinsteiger (3) 3. R. Gullit (3)
3. Enigma / TRV - 1. L. Messi (2) 2. Ronaldinho (10) 3. F. Redondo (1)
4. harms 1. D. Maradona (1) 2. E. Figueroa (2) FIT 3. P. Maldini (0)
5. P-Nut0712 1. L. Ronaldo (38) 2. D. Passarella (71) 3. Socrates (119)
6. Skizzo/Pat 1. F. Beckenbauer (124) 2. M. Desailly (47) 3. G. Muller (1)
7. Moby 1. C. Ronaldo (117) 2. A. Iniesta (174) 3. L. Figo (8) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (1)
8. willhse456 1. M. Platini (10) 2. Rummenigge (10) 3. M. van Basten (36) 4. R. Ferdinand (14)
9. Edgar/Allan/Pillow 1. A. Di Stefano (119) 2. Zico (93) 3. J.M. Moreno (210) FIT 4. Gento
10. Indnyc 1. G. Best (12) 2. B. Charlton (2) 3. D. Law (7) 4. R. Keane (4)
11. Sjor Bepo 1. Eusebio (11) 2. Xavi (10) 3. G. Scirea (10) 4. T. Henry (1)
12. MJJ - 1. Garrincha (434) 2. J. Zanetti (10) 3. PR Falcao (10) 4. J.L. Andrade (10)
13. Gio - 1. L. Matthäus (10) 2. F. Rijkaard (28) 3. B. Moore (10) 4. Z. Zidane (35)
14. Don Alfredo - 1. Romario (10) 2. O. Varela (1) FIT 3. B. Robson (10) 4. R. Krol (4)
15. Michaelf7777777 1. F. Puskas (6) 2. L. Modric (10) 3. J Bozsik (57) 4. J. Popluhar (3)
16. Arbitrium- 1. Baresi 2. L. Thuram (312) 3. A. Nesta 4. C. Makelele (447)

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Want to co manage with me? If a radical R1 loss is ok, sign on.
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How does it work? I like picking payers, but not fond of arguing on the match itself :lol: .

Anyway, Skizzo has Beckenbauer and Muller. I thought it was one country per player?
 
total slap in the face.

Well, english is my 7th language.
 
I'll send my pick to harms as he's straight after me and I likely won't be around for a couple of hours whilst the game is on.
 
Moby said:
Thanks. Was worried about Sjor spoiling it again for me. Hence took Iniesta first and hoped he won't take Luisito having picked Xavi already.
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never watched him in his AM days so wasnt sure if he would be compatible with Xavi, you were safe as far i was concerned.
 
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