The Road Trip Draft SF: MJJ vs Indnyc

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
antohan said:
@Indnyc seriously underrates Andrade. Understandable given the little footage available, but in what you can get hold of he is absolutely golden and looks far more effective a defender than either Brazilian (whose defensive game wasn't exactly what made them stellar fullbacks to begin with).

And "understandable" is being kind, fact is we are going through the usual "play on ignorance" which I find a disservice to older players. Football historians who saw both Andrade and Nilton Santos ranked the former higher, and they didn't exactly underrate Santos.

All that said, I like his team, has a nice cohesive theme to it and you can see it playing together effectively, while their rivals look more disjointed and reliant on individualities. With this sort of cast you'd favour the former.
Click to expand...
As far as all time drafts go, I think we have come a long way in terms of levelling the field when it comes to players across generations especially with the great efforts from the Match Compilation community who have put together great footage and provided a lot of clarity for a lot of older players going back till the 60s.

Beyond that, however, it really is a black box and little apart from historical anecdotes to go from. Harsh as it may, I think the best course forward is to re-implement the rule Physio(?) used where you needed to provide at least one full match for players born before a particular date to make them eligible. Pretty much excludes the entire pre-war generation and most of the early post-war class, but it's a massive ask from the voters to be able to objectively assess them with the ones they have at least seen a few games end-to-end. It always ends in them getting overseen and you can't blame the voters or the arguing manager for that either.

It's the one thing I realised on missing out in the rules and something I think would serve well as the norm in all out all time drafts like this where after a point you are looking at a vast variety of GOATs/top tier players. In more reserved pools or ones with a lot of blocks or tough criteria it would be better to give them an outing and expect a softer reception.
 
antohan said:
@Indnyc seriously underrates Andrade. Understandable given the little footage available, but in what you can get hold of he is absolutely golden and looks far more effective a defender than either Brazilian (whose defensive game wasn't exactly what made them stellar fullbacks to begin with).
Click to expand...
From what I've read about him, is he really good choice for RB tho?

Given the difference in tactics and defensive players often playing in dual roles, to me he was always more of a DM or a B2B or even right midfielder than a RB in a back four.

All the sources depict him more of a midfielder or destroyer rather than the qualities and role of what you'd expect from a modern day full back.
 
You'd think a draft called the 'Road Trip' would have a finalist/winner at least a few miles away from Manchester :wenger:
 
Enigma_87 said:
Given the difference in tactics and defensive players often playing in dual roles, to me he was always more of a DM or a B2B or even right midfielder than a RB in a back four.
Click to expand...
Yep. As a right-sided CM in a diamond or even a wingback who can add to the midfield battle seems ideal for him. Been through this discussion a lot of times though and I don't see much issue with him at right-back either. Disagree about him being an all out defensive presence though, from what I've read a lot of his praise stems from his ability on the ball. Quite a bold statement to make that he's a more effective defender than Cafu - someone who played in back fours in narrow formations for most of his career at the absolute top level, and while he was instrumental in providing the width he wasn't a right-sided Roberto Carlos and absolutely sound defensively as well. The likes of him and Zanetti are incredibly balanced fullbacks.
 
Moby said:
Yep. As a right-sided CM in a diamond or even a wingback who can add to the midfield battle seems ideal for him. Been through this discussion a lot of times though and I don't see much issue with him at right-back either. Disagree about him being an all out defensive presence though, from what I've read a lot of his praise stems from his ability on the ball. Quite a bold statement to make that he's a more effective defender than Cafu - someone who played in back fours in narrow formations for most of his career at the absolute top level, and while he was instrumental in providing the width he wasn't a right-sided Roberto Carlos and absolutely sound defensively as well. The likes of him and Zanetti are incredibly balanced fullbacks.
Click to expand...

Yeah agreed. Think he'll be inclined to tuck in to influence play centrally and against Giggs who is an out and out winger with bundle of pace he would probably have issues defensively. Especially with Garrincha not helping out. Andrade was depicted usually as very influential player, hence a RB role in back 4 wouldn't really suit him as he'll more likely play a peripheral part from that side.

Zanetti on the other hand I'd rate as Lahm on the left. One of the most versatile and balanced full backs that could really do a job anywhere, especially a defensive one and certainly a good fit against Best.
 
Voted for the team which - in my opinion - seems to have the most harmonious strategy and whose main striker would benefit from a closer support.

No negative comments to be provided.
 
Last edited:
There seems to be a impression that if a defender is good on the ball, then he must be defensively weak. It's not like we are talking about a Pirlo here. I did earlier research on Andrade and he shined as a half-back in 2-3-5, which to me is more like a tucked CB who is good on the ball. Something similar to Leo Junior or even Breitner on the right. You'd not see him providing touchline runs or overlapping width but more letting infield to push Suarez up into more attacking role.

Personally I don't think Suarez is necessary to MJJ in midfield as he'd tend to overlap more with Andrade (and that he's better on the left side). Someone more attacking like Kopa or even Neeskens would have been brilliant there.
 
antohan said:
@Indnyc seriously underrates Andrade. Understandable given the little footage available, but in what you can get hold of he is absolutely golden and looks far more effective a defender than either Brazilian (whose defensive game wasn't exactly what made them stellar fullbacks to begin with).

And "understandable" is being kind, fact is we are going through the usual "play on ignorance" which I find a disservice to older players. Football historians who saw both Andrade and Nilton Santos ranked the former higher, and they didn't exactly underrate Santos.

All that said, I like his team, has a nice cohesive theme to it and you can see it playing together effectively, while their rivals look more disjointed and reliant on individualities. With this sort of cast you'd favour the former.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I don’t disagree that Andrade was a great player at all.. It’s incredibly hard to go off anecdotes and just notes to judge a player..

Maybe I haven’t researched enough about him but the little that I read has been your posts and a few blogs and it seems he was mostly a half back

Happy to read further if you would recommend reading some specific material
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There seems to be a impression that if a defender is good on the ball, then he must be defensively weak. It's not like we are talking about a Pirlo here. I did earlier research on Andrade and he shined as a half-back in 2-3-5, which to me is more like a tucked CB who is good on the ball. Something similar to Leo Junior or even Breitner on the right. You'd not see him providing touchline runs or overlapping width but more letting infield to push Suarez up into more attacking role.

Personally I don't think Suarez is necessary to MJJ in midfield as he'd tend to overlap more with Andrade (and that he's better on the left side). Someone more attacking like Kopa or even Neeskens would have been brilliant there.
Click to expand...
Half back since the early 20's has always been more of a midfielder than defender.

If we're talking about WM then you have 3 defenders - once CB and two tucked in full backs and two half backs in front of them.

The half back you are talking about is in WW formation perhaps, but Andrade was more of the former from what I've read.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Half back since the early 20's has always been more of a midfielder than defender.

If we're talking about WM then you have 3 defenders - once CB and two tucked in full backs and two half backs in front of them.

The half back you are talking about is in WW formation perhaps, but Andrade was more of the former from what I've read.
Click to expand...
He suits 2-3-5 more than a WM simply because it utilizes his potential to go forward. In a WM the side back is mostly for defensive purposes and the half back (DM) is the box to box player.

As I said I see him as Leo Junior on the right, a better version. For me a RB ( who cuts in) in a back 4 or a Right DM (back 3 or 4) is his best position.
 
It's always difficult to assess. But as soon as you agree to take part in an all-time draft and by extension include pre-back-four players then we need to have a set of ground rules to allow them to be judged fairly. There has to some sort of acceptance that their fit has to come down to their attributes rather than just their pedigree in a similar position. Otherwise what's the point in including them at all, unless it's either a centre-half like Nasazzi or a centre-forward like Bican, because everything inbetween is vastly different to what we see in the game today.

I've always been comfortable with Andrade as a right-back in modern draft formations. His defensive credentials - defending the flank against well-manned attacks - are top notch - and his on-the-ball abilities are an integral part of his legend. There's a case to be made that the right-half in an early 2-3-2-3 is a closer fit to the modern game - as a two-way player defending the flank and creating on the ball - compared with the hybrid CB/FB that were most common in the 1960s to 1980s. Those types would be like fish out of water with the on-the-ball requirements of the modern game.
 
This would be an incredible game. I just love both teams, and can't make up my mind. Indnyc's is more sexy and gets you up your seat watching them, but MJJ's is so compact and lethal upfront.
 
@Indnyc Thanks for the P&G value appreciation.

@Moby Yeah, I used the minimum of one full game linked for players born before 1940 IIRC in the P&G draft. Sjor mentioned issues with pre-war players and this method seemed the best to retain as many players as possible with some decent footage
 
Surprising gap, especially considering that man-to-man I'd probably give @MJJ a slight advantage. Not that @Indnyc would've considered subbing Law for van Basten, for example, despite the latter being a superior player though. Looks like we have a draft winner right here — a very well-balanced team without any weaknesses that brings in additional sentimental votes as well.
 
harms said:
Surprising gap, especially considering that man-to-man I'd probably give @MJJ a slight advantage. Not that @Indnyc would've considered subbing Law for van Basten, for example, despite the latter being a superior player though. Looks like we have a draft winner right here — a very well-balanced team without any weaknesses that brings in additional sentimental votes as well.
Click to expand...
Too had Cristiano is unavailable.
 
harms said:
Surprising gap, especially considering that man-to-man I'd probably give @MJJ a slight advantage. Not that @Indnyc would've considered subbing Law for van Basten, for example, despite the latter being a superior player though. Looks like we have a draft winner right here — a very well-balanced team without any weaknesses that brings in additional sentimental votes as well.
Click to expand...

few times its been mentioned and i think its a little bit insulting towards indnyc to say he will win because of sentiments...if anything we here underrate our legends!
It was a brilliant route to start with, great RRs and a well crafted, balanced team that he built and if he wins its going to be fully deserved.

Was a close game as MJJ also has a great team but in the end the proven partnership of Holy Trinity won my vote.
 
harms said:
Surprising gap, especially considering that man-to-man I'd probably give @MJJ a slight advantage. Not that @Indnyc would've considered subbing Law for van Basten, for example, despite the latter being a superior player though. Looks like we have a draft winner right here — a very well-balanced team without any weaknesses that brings in additional sentimental votes as well.
Click to expand...

I think the result is due to united bias and some of my players being more unknown/unappreciated(Dzajic,suarez, falcao, andrade).
 
Not that it would've helped to turn the game around, but I would've moved Luisito further in the hole. I'm a big fan of his older playmaking general version, but by doing so you would've gained additional goalthreat and as a bonus it would've created a more clear distinction between Suarez and Falcão roles (playmaking box-to-box and attacking midfielder).
 
Šjor Bepo said:
few times its been mentioned and i think its a little bit insulting towards indnyc to say he will win because of sentiments...if anything we here underrate our legends!
Click to expand...
Perhaps. I've mentioned that his team is practically flawless, but so was MJJ's — and the Trinity did the trick. As for the underrating — that's why it's so surprisinsg, usually here our players are rated slighter lesser than they should.

It's not only the United bias, obviously, but also the idea of a well-proven partnership that is bigger than the sum of its parts, not that the parts are any bad even by themselves :) I don't think that we have many partnerships that get as much (well-deserved) appreciation — van Basten/Gullit; Platini/Boniek; Breitenigge...
 
harms said:
Not that it would've helped to turn the game around, but I would've moved Luisito further in the hole. I'm a big fan of his older playmaking general version, but by doing so you would've gained additional goalthreat and as a bonus it would've created a more clear distinction between Suarez and Falcão roles (playmaking box-to-box and attacking midfielder).
Click to expand...

I was thinking of doing that but Falcao is really getting underrated here by most people (and I have no idea who Pillow thinks I have in midfield) and a Falcao/Makelele vs Keane/Edwards midfield would have been seen as significantly weaker.
 
harms said:
Surprising gap, especially considering that man-to-man I'd probably give @MJJ a slight advantage. Not that @Indnyc would've considered subbing Law for van Basten, for example, despite the latter being a superior player though. Looks like we have a draft winner right here — a very well-balanced team without any weaknesses that brings in additional sentimental votes as well.
Click to expand...

Some of the comments for this match have made me rethink the strategy.. I may end up picking someone for the reinforcement round as additional cover depending on who I play

I actually took inspiration from @Isotope who got Best, Charlton and Giggs in the P&G draft

It worked out well but both the other teams have great synergy as well.. Will be a tough final
 
Šjor Bepo said:
few times its been mentioned and i think its a little bit insulting towards indnyc to say he will win because of sentiments...if anything we here underrate our legends!
It was a brilliant route to start with, great RRs and a well crafted, balanced team that he built and if he wins its going to be fully deserved.

Was a close game as MJJ also has a great team but in the end the proven partnership of Holy Trinity won my vote.
Click to expand...

Thanks.. I do think we underrate our legends.. Has Charlton ever been in a final here? At least in the time I have been here, haven’t seen it
 
MJJ said:
I think the result is due to united bias and some of my players being more unknown/unappreciated(Dzajic,suarez, Falcao, andrade).
Click to expand...

Don’t think Dzajic, Falcao and Suarez were underrated at all.. I admitted Dzajic/Garrincha is as good as it gets for two wide forwards

The only thing that worked in my favor was Giggs/Santos/Maldini on one side and Cafu/Keane on the other side to slow them down
 
Enigma_87 said:
From what I've read about him, is he really good choice for RB tho?

Given the difference in tactics and defensive players often playing in dual roles, to me he was always more of a DM or a B2B or even right midfielder than a RB in a back four.

All the sources depict him more of a midfielder or destroyer rather than the qualities and role of what you'd expect from a modern day full back.
Click to expand...

That's definitely nonsense. It was a 2-3-5 they played so Andrade's positioning was pretty much that of a RWB (with Nassazi as the right-side centreback, not RB, even if back then his position was actually called fullback). It DID differ from a RB duty, not as much in that a regular fullback is more conservative, but in the detail: the winger was a concern, but the main one usually was the inside left, remember the balls were far too heavy for the sort of crossing we dread when a fullback loses his man, the damage was done centrally and you would happily have the oppo faffing around on the flanks as long as they wanted to.

From the little footage available you can see he controls the winger, brings him to a standstill (was quicker than anyone around so was never going to be outpaced), shows him into culs de sac, but rarely commits to a tackle. Everything he does is primarily concerned with the inside left not getting played on while he waits for his team's winger to arrive in support... then he just leaves him to it and buggers off into some form of personal detail of the inside left.


I had made a clip off a bunch of sources, but the FIFA copyright got it down in no time several times over. On a couple of occasions you see him dash across the penalty box to make last ditch tackles on forwards breaking through the line at the other end. There's one here at 1:05 (makeagif won't let me make one due to FIFA Corp). Look at the speed of his reaction and movement, it is absolutely mind-boggling relative to the other players, which is ultimately what matters when comparing eras. It's the sort of thing a Nesta would be hailed for... and it happens at 2-1 down in a World Cup Final. And that's an old Andrade, who had been out of contract and clubless for a few months!



It's hard to nail it given how differently football was played, but in midfield I would only really look at using him as an RCM in a diamond (appealing to the balance in his game) rather than a DM. I would absolutely 100% play him as a RWB (with different instructions to what he was used to).

The question then is whether the way he went about things defensively was more akin to a modern RCB (I mean a flank covering one in a trio, not the right CB in a duo) than RB. I'd think the former is more appropriate from a defensive standpoint... but it neuters his attacking contribution. Conversely, a lot of what he did applies to a RB (after all, you do want a RB who is acutely aware of what can materialise in the space between him and the CB, it's probably the mark of the defensively great ones, while pace merchants have nothing on him in that regard) so -with some adaptation to the modern game- he would turn out a superb fullback mixing the best of Zanetti and Cafú. Proven right fullback? No, not really, but quite clearly had all the attributes, and 50 years on people who watched him would rate him amongst the very best, such was the talent and array of skills he could leverage.
 
Agree with Sjor, yes having United legends help but especially now that these drafts have their own forum and less exposed to casual voters, there's hardly and risk of rose tinted glasses. It's not like they are just United players and not supposed to be up their in the general rankings, in Best, Charlton, Law, Keane you have players who are usually rated among the best in their positions. Best and Garrincha is a toss up - think I even started a thread about the comparison long back wondering who most think as the better winger - Garrincha probably has the higher peak in terms of his WC 62 performances but overall I'd give Best the edge in terms of entire career. English league was pretty rough back then, you have Bestie himself narrating stories of Leeds players especially Johnny Giles coming out to harm him and he stood his ground and took the world by storm in that environment. I rate Best's performance vs Benfica as the best one out of the two wingers. 19 year old, playing at the home of an absolute giant, and completely eviscerating them. Garrincha has the advantage, or rather Best has the disadvantage in terms of NT career of being born in a lesser nation, which should be factored in as in terms of talent there's nothing between them. Two absolutely unstoppable dribblers who could decide a game in a matter of a couple of runs.

Just saying it was a quality team individually as well with the defense being strengthened with GOAT fullbacks and especially picking Maldini and coming up against Garrincha was a stroke of luck.
 
antohan said:
I had made a clip off a bunch of sources, but the FIFA copyright got it down in no time several times over. On a couple of occasions you see him dash across the penalty box to make last ditch tackles on forwards breaking through the line at the other end. There's one here at 1:05 (makeagif won't let me make one due to FIFA Corp). Look at the speed of his reaction and movement, it is absolutely mind-boggling relative to the other players, which is ultimately what matters when comparing eras. It's the sort of thing a Nesta would be hailed for... and it happens at 2-1 down in a World Cup Final. And that's an old Andrade, who had been out of contract and clubless for a few months!
Click to expand...
For some reason I also associated that tackle with the wrong Andrade. Great post as usual.
 
Moby said:
Agree with Sjor, yes having United legends help but especially now that these drafts have their own forum and less exposed to casual voters, there's hardly and risk of rose tinted glasses. It's not like they are just United players and not supposed to be up their in the general rankings, in Best, Charlton, Law, Keane you have players who are usually rated among the best in their positions. Best and Garrincha is a toss up - think I even started a thread about the comparison long back wondering who most think as the better winger - Garrincha probably has the higher peak in terms of his WC 62 performances but overall I'd give Best the edge in terms of entire career. English league was pretty rough back then, you have Bestie himself narrating stories of Leeds players especially Johnny Giles coming out to harm him and he stood his ground and took the world by storm in that environment. I rate Best's performance vs Benfica as the best one out of the two wingers. 19 year old, playing at the home of an absolute giant, and completely eviscerating them. Garrincha has the advantage, or rather Best has the disadvantage in terms of NT career of being born in a lesser nation, which should be factored in as in terms of talent there's nothing between them. Two absolutely unstoppable dribblers who could decide a game in a matter of a couple of runs.

Just saying it was a quality team individually as well with the defense being strengthened with GOAT fullbacks and especially picking Maldini and coming up against Garrincha was a stroke of luck.
Click to expand...

I wanted to pick Scirea to have a Santos - Scirea - Blanc/McGrath - Cafu back 4

Since Mjj picked Scirea, i took Maldini which probably worked out better for me
 
Indnyc said:
I wanted to pick Scirea to have a Santos - Scirea - Blanc/McGrath - Cafu back 4

Since Mjj picked Scirea, i took Maldini which probably worked out better for me
Click to expand...
Absolutely prefer Maldini to Scirea in that backline, let alone if Blanc was his proposed partner. Now, if you could have Scirea next to Maldini...
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He suits 2-3-5 more than a WM simply because it utilizes his potential to go forward. In a WM the side back is mostly for defensive purposes and the half back (DM) is the box to box player.

As I said I see him as Leo Junior on the right, a better version. For me a RB ( who cuts in) in a back 4 or a Right DM (back 3 or 4) is his best position.
Click to expand...
I see him more of the Duncan version of the 20's. Fast strong, tactically intelligent and also very versatile, but his best position would be a right sided box to box midfielder where he can influence the play.
 
antohan said:
That's definitely nonsense. It was a 2-3-5 they played so Andrade's positioning was pretty much that of a RWB (with Nassazi as the right-side centreback, not RB, even if back then his position was actually called fullback). It DID differ from a RB duty, not as much in that a regular fullback is more conservative, but in the detail: the winger was a concern, but the main one usually was the inside left, remember the balls were far too heavy for the sort of crossing we dread when a fullback loses his man, the damage was done centrally and you would happily have the oppo faffing around on the flanks as long as they wanted to.

From the little footage available you can see he controls the winger, brings him to a standstill (was quicker than anyone around so was never going to be outpaced), shows him into culs de sac, but rarely commits to a tackle. Everything he does is primarily concerned with the inside left not getting played on while he waits for his team's winger to arrive in support... then he just leaves him to it and buggers off into some form of personal detail of the inside left.


I had made a clip off a bunch of sources, but the FIFA copyright got it down in no time several times over. On a couple of occasions you see him dash across the penalty box to make last ditch tackles on forwards breaking through the line at the other end. There's one here at 1:05 (makeagif won't let me make one due to FIFA Corp). Look at the speed of his reaction and movement, it is absolutely mind-boggling relative to the other players, which is ultimately what matters when comparing eras. It's the sort of thing a Nesta would be hailed for... and it happens at 2-1 down in a World Cup Final. And that's an old Andrade, who had been out of contract and clubless for a few months!



It's hard to nail it given how differently football was played, but in midfield I would only really look at using him as an RCM in a diamond (appealing to the balance in his game) rather than a DM. I would absolutely 100% play him as a RWB (with different instructions to what he was used to).

The question then is whether the way he went about things defensively was more akin to a modern RCB (I mean a flank covering one in a trio, not the right CB in a duo) than RB. I'd think the former is more appropriate from a defensive standpoint... but it neuters his attacking contribution. Conversely, a lot of what he did applies to a RB (after all, you do want a RB who is acutely aware of what can materialise in the space between him and the CB, it's probably the mark of the defensively great ones, while pace merchants have nothing on him in that regard) so -with some adaptation to the modern game- he would turn out a superb fullback mixing the best of Zanetti and Cafú. Proven right fullback? No, not really, but quite clearly had all the attributes, and 50 years on people who watched him would rate him amongst the very best, such was the talent and array of skills he could leverage.
Click to expand...



Good post, anto. I agree that he's unfavorably depicted as destroyer in some of the older reports and as I've already replied to Edgar, from what I gather if we're to use him in modern day formations I'd probably have him either as a right sided midfielder in a diamond as @Moby and you mentioned or box to box(RCM in a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2) Dunc type where he can influence play.

In 2-3-5 he still would be more central and whilst he naturally would cover the opposition winger in attack he'd most likely charge through the middle in open space, as he'd have 2 out and out wingers on the wings and 2 inside forwards and 1 striker.

From a defensive standpoint from what I understand you have him and the left halfback covering the wingers when possession is lost and when the winger tracks back he moves in centrally to cover the loose space. In a way he'd defend somewhere in between a RB and RCB in a flat back 4, a bit of Gentile type in zona mista, as he'd nominally go wide to cover and tuck in when receives support?

I do believe his attacking contribution would be more central in modern game as he won't be the overlapping line hugging RB that provides option wide, but rather tuck and gallop into space.

In essence I'd buy him as a RB in flat four, but still believe that it's a bit wasting of his talents and not really using him to his strengths in a 4-3-3/ 4-2-3-1 or even 4-4-2.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Good post, anto. I agree that he's unfavorably depicted as destroyer in some of the older reports and as I've already replied to Edgar, from what I gather if we're to use him in modern day formations I'd probably have him either as a right sided midfielder in a diamond as @Moby and you mentioned or box to box(RCM in a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2) Dunc type where he can influence play.

In 2-3-5 he still would be more central and whilst he naturally would cover the opposition winger in attack he'd most likely charge through the middle in open space, as he'd have 2 out and out wingers on the wings and 2 inside forwards and 1 striker.

From a defensive standpoint from what I understand you have him and the left halfback covering the wingers when possession is lost and when the winger tracks back he moves in centrally to cover the loose space. In a way he'd defend somewhere in between a RB and RCB in a flat back 4, a bit of Gentile type in zona mista, as he'd nominally go wide to cover and tuck in when receives support?

I do believe his attacking contribution would be more central in modern game as he won't be the overlapping line hugging RB that provides option wide, but rather tuck and gallop into space.

In essence I'd buy him as a RB in flat four, but still believe that it's a bit wasting of his talents and not really using him to his strengths in a 4-3-3/ 4-2-3-1 or even 4-4-2.
Click to expand...
That's the main issue I have with him at RB or RCB. I'm clear he had the skillset for it, but it would be like asking Keane to play a Makelele man-marking role.

I'm inclined to agree with the RCM in a diamond or the outside of a three. Unfortunately most of the footage is 1930, or 1928 (by then he already had syphilis and wasn't the undisputed star) so the commanding influence in the attacking phase is lost. All I can assess is how he went about the defending phase.

The fact he played inside right in his early years and he was never wasted on the wing indicates you are probably right he would be best used advancing centrally, but by all accounts you would be playing him as a Zidane that could defend more than instruct him to act as a destroyer or even a Tardelli/Breitner box-to-box type.

A hard sell that for what would be a critical role, would rather argue his case as a playmaking RWB that cuts in with a line-hugging winger ahead. Basically playing from the right with the disruption a Brehme or Breitner caused on the left, but with better dribbling to boot.
 
Last edited:
@antohan EAP likened him to Leo Junior from the right and that comparison should be apt imo. Fine in any right sided midfield role and fine as a RB who is not asked to run down the wing constantly.

Breitner in his LB role is also a good shout, but I did not get the Zidane comparison. :nervous:Zidane + defensive work = Iniesta imo, yet I think Iniesta and Andrade are two fundamentally different players.
 
Don Alfredo said:
@antohan EAP likened him to Leo Junior from the right and that comparison should be apt imo. Fine in any right sided midfield role and fine as a RB who is not asked to run down the wing constantly.

Breitner in his LB role is also a good shout, but I did not get the Zidane comparison. :nervous:Zidane + defensive work = Iniesta imo, yet I think Iniesta and Andrade are two fundamentally different players.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree that's the sort of tangible role where he would be best utilised without making giant leaps in terms of "retraining" to the modern game/tactical systems.

The Zidane point relates to descriptions of his absolute peak around 1924: his defending was top notch, but what set him apart was how he glided past players effortlessly (and the combination of both was groundbreaking stuff).

He wasn't about pace or blood and thunder but about his technique being head and shoulders above that of his peers. That's why I feel uneasy about "box to box" midfielder, they usually outmuscle, outpace or outthink their rivals rather than run rings around them.
 
harms said:
Surprising gap, especially considering that man-to-man I'd probably give @MJJ a slight advantage. Not that @Indnyc would've considered subbing Law for van Basten, for example, despite the latter being a superior player though. Looks like we have a draft winner right here — a very well-balanced team without any weaknesses that brings in additional sentimental votes as well.
Click to expand...
Yeah, true. It was 11-1 when I voted which I thought was a bit mental given the teams are basically even with MJJ having a slightly stronger front three man-for-man.

That said, I give a lot of credit for collective efforts to quell star players, and Indnyc's support in front and inside of Garrincha was unquestionable. Plus the United theme where United were strong (in midfield and through the trinity) bolstered by Brazilian pizzazz where United's greats don't quite stack up in this company. It's not just about United, but pulling off a theme and seamlessly addressing what would be considered weaknesses by the business end of a draft.
 
For what it's worth, I do prefer the McGrath + Maldini CB pairing compared to McGrath + Blanc especially considering you have Nilton. I think Blanc + McGrath is a nice stopper sweeper combo, but this back 4 is a better defense on the whole IMO.

MvB almost swung it the other way for me tbh. He's a better striker than Law but the allure of the trinity was a bit too much for me in the end.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.