The Road Trip Draft SF: MJJ vs Indnyc

[harms]

MJJ ----------------------VS----------------------------- Indnyc-------------​

MJJ tactics

Formation: 4-3-3

Defense

The defense is marshalled by one of the greatest of all time, Scirea partnering him is the man who gave Maradona and Van Basten headaches Lo Zar, Vierchowod. Vierchowod is the perfect partner to complement Scirea, with his combination of pace, strength and tactical reading of the game. At the fullback's position, we have one of the best defensive fullbacks of all time Zanetti and the Black Marvel, Andrade.

Italian football is littered with examples of defensive brilliance, names indelibly linked to the very soul of the peninsula. These include Baresi, Cannavaro, Nesta, Maldini, Gentile, Bonucci, Costacurta, Facchetti and Burgnich. However, two names ascend even beyond this illustrious list; they are the very embodiment of the libero and are synonymous with glory. Armando Picchi and Gaetano Scirea are the silk threads that run through the defensive steel of calcio.

Scirea was an epitome of courage, skill and talent, keeping a legendary figure in the form of Franco Baresi out of the Italy side for the World Cup in 1982. Blessed with an attacking prowess and an equally gifted defensive consciousness, Scirea was a vital figure for La Vecchia Signora.

Scirea collected silverware at will during his time with the Bianconeri. lifting seven Scudetti, two Coppa Italia, a UEFA Cup, a Cup Winners’ Cup, a UEFA Super Cup, an Intercontinental Cup and the European Cup. He remains one of only five players in football history to win every UEFA and FIFA club competition.

It was andrade's dribbling and passing range which made him the Black Marvel, but also the way he ran the game at a time when the pitch was split into halves and connecting them two was a long ball. Andrade would keep the ball at feet and progress, attacking the space until some poor sod broke the line and came to stop him, providing the gap for a 5 vs. 4 or an opportunity to dribble through and turn that into 5 vs. 3. Revolutionary stuff, ridiculous as it may now sound

Midfield

In midfield, I have The Architect. One of the finest midfield maestro the world has seen winning the Ballon D'or in 1960, finishing second in 1961 and 1964(and third in 1965). Luis Suarez will be the team's conductor and main playmaker. Supporting him is one of the finest box to box midfielders the world has ever seen in Falcao. Falcao led an average Roma side to the title against one of the best club sides of all time (containing Scirea, Platini, Cabrini, Boniek, Gentile, Tardelli, Rossi and Zoff).

Giving freedom to both Falcao and Suarez to stamp their authority on the proceedings is Makelele. His Glaticos teammates considered him the best player in a side that including Zidane, Ronaldo and Figo.

Attack

Not much to say about my attack, I have arguably two of the top three wingers with the best number 9 in football's history.

Why I would win:

Both the teams match up well, indy's right-side is fearsomely offensive with Best and Cafu and is very well balanced by the left side of Giggs and Santos. However, I think my side has a slight edge in all the key battles which will prove decisive.

• I have the best defender on the pitch in Scirea who will be vital in negating the talents of the holy trinity while providing an edge in midfield. Vierchowod's pace will be crucial here as well.
• I also have the best striker on the pitch in Van Basten supplied by two GOAT wingers. Giggs while very good lacks a bit offensively and that can make a difference between two evenly matched sides like this.
• Van Basten's clinicalness. With two sides so evenly matched, the side who puts away half chances will win. Van Basten's ability to score from anywhere, no matter how tight the angle can prove the difference.
• Maybe a controversial statement on a united board but both Falcao and suarez are slightly better midfielders than Keane/edwards.
• Garrincha became famous cos he kept tearing n.santos to shreds in training, the same will happen here. On the otherhand, Zanetti is one of the few fullbacks who can maybe stop or lessen Best's effect on the match.
• McGrath vs MVB: Will have a seperate post on this later but they faced each other twice and McGrath played in midfield both times(did move to right back in the first encouter after Morris's injury) and with both sides not looking to score in the second encounter after England led.

In his first training session with the professional team, he was put up against Brazil international Nilton Santos, who later admitted never before had he encountered a winger who could beat him with such ease – let alone one who was bowlegged.
Nilton Santos, whose humbling on the training field had given birth to Garrincha’s career, told the opposing goalkeeper that day he would tear a piece from his shirt for every goal. He ended the match with his jersey in tatters.

So while the right side of both teams is about par(slight edge to Indy depending on how you rate cafu vs andrade), there is a big difference on the left, significant in defense and attack and a slight advantage for me in midfield which should prove enough for me to win.

P.S. Scirea has already lost twice in this draft, I think the whole forum should hang it's head in shame if he was to lose a third time. To ensure Redcafe draft members retain their reputation as world renowned philosophers of the game, vote for Scirea and MJJ.

Indnyc tactics

Formation: 4-3-3/4-5-1

Tactics: Attack, Attack, Attack!!! Play the United way with fast paced wingers and stretch the pitch

Attack

The Holy Trinity and Giggs are up there with the best attacks of all time. No matter the defense, we can expect them to create chances and score.

Midfield

Keane and Edwards form a fantastic double pivot in the defensive phase of the game. Additionally, Charlton will drop in deep and is expected to play a significant role in the midfield battle. Charlton would also "defend from the front" in stopping Scirea from dictating too much from the back.

Defence :

Maldini, McGrath and Fillol form a strong core. Nilton Santos is one of the all time greats and in Cafu we have a genius who will stretch the pitch and provide width and be a strong presence in the defensive phase of the game. He allows Best to play a more free role and roam around the final 3rd

Garrincha and Djazic are significant wide threats and arguably the up there with the greatest of all time. The only way to slow them are having players like Santos and Cafu who can match them for pace and trickery.

I considered starting Blanc instead of McGrath for this match but as McGrath has a good record against Van Basten, he got the nod

Why we will win

1) Great attack - Best, Charlton, Law, Giggs is a breath taking front 4 who will score against the best of defenses.

2) Better fullbacks to deal with the opposition wide threats. Mjj would most likely play Zanetti on the left and Andrade on the right. While this is a good defense (prefer Zanetti on the right), Santos and Cafu are arguably the greatest of all time in their positions. Defensively strong and can support an attack. Don't think it can get better than Cafu - Best flank

3) Central defense capable of defending against Van Basten: McGrath and Maldini have great records against Van Basten (Maldini 4 games, McGrath 2 games; Van Basten 0 goals/assists). This does not mean he cannot have a good game and score but just to highlight that the central defensive core is pretty strong

Good luck @MJJ @Indnyc

 

[harms]

Please check all the quotes in the OP, @MJJ, in case something is missing, they usually get fecked up with copypasting. For the future, it's better to take a screenshot and add an image to the write up.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Very interesting Best vs Garrincha matchup. I know its more than just that but I can't remember another match that had those two leading teams and facing off.

 

[Ecstatic]

Let's go.

My vote is subject to the evolution of the discussions.

 

[Indnyc]

Good luck @MJJ

 

[harms]

I have to say, I like @Indnyc's side much better than I did in the last round

• the addition of Maldini
• more suitable position for Keane
• he's not playing against me

The point that I've made regarding Maldini + Brehme Nilton being potential match winners against Best Garrincha still applies, although they don't have a sweeper to cover for them.

On the other hand, I don't expect Falcao/Dzajic to help out Zanetti very often (Falcao had the engine to do it but I've never seen him doing a Davids-esque impression on the left), and Best plus Cafu is a fearsome right wing, probably an all-time best if we exclude Messi. Scirea is a fantastic cover though, and while I prefer Zanetti on the right, he played on the left well and often enough to offer them significant resistance.

Vierchowod on Law is a good fit (against some parallels with the last game ) — a physical beast with outstanding pace to keep and eye on Scot's perpetual movement. Same is true for McGrath - van Basten though.

Tough one!

 

[Indnyc]

Getting some of the points from Mjj's Op answered

Both the teams match up well, indy's right-side is fearsomely offensive with Best and Cafu and is very well balanced by the left side of Giggs and Santos. However, I think my side has a slight edge in all the key battles which will prove decisive.

• I have the best defender on the pitch in Scirea who will be vital in negating the talents of the holy trinity while providing an edge in midfield. Vierchowod's pace will be crucial here as well.

Fair enough in Scirea though Maldini works well here for me.

• I also have the best striker on the pitch in Van Basten supplied by two GOAT wingers. Giggs while very good lacks a bit offensively and that can make a difference between two evenly matched sides like this.

Giggs doesn't lack offensively at all. Not sure what you mean by that? Giggs though is significantly more hard working than the other 3 wingers which helps in the defensive phase against Garrincha

• Van Basten's clinicalness. With two sides so evenly matched, the side who puts away half chances will win. Van Basten's ability to score from anywhere, no matter how tight the angle can prove the difference.

Fair point but as noted before, my central defense matches pretty well with him.

• Maybe a controversial statement on a united board but both Falcao and suarez are slightly better midfielders than Keane/edwards.

You comparing different players. Keane is significantly better than Makelele with Edwards/Charlton comparable to Falcao and Suarez

• Garrincha became famous cos he kept tearing n.santos to shreds in training, the same will happen here. On the otherhand, Zanetti is one of the few fullbacks who can maybe stop or lessen Best's effect on the match.

Don't really like Zanetti on the left. He is still very effective but i prefer him to be on the right.. Zanetti doesn't have as much support from Dzajic as Santos will get from Giggs

• McGrath vs MVB: Will have a seperate post on this later but they faced each other twice and McGrath played in midfield both times(did move to right back in the first encouter after Morris's injury) and with both sides not looking to score in the second encounter after England led.

So while the right side of both teams is about par(slight edge to Indy depending on how you rate cafu vs andrade), there is a big difference on the left, significant in defense and attack and a slight advantage for me in midfield which should prove enough for me to win.

Don't think this is a just slight advantage.. I mentioned in the Op. that Zanetti/Andrade is a good defense but slightly lower than a Santos/Cafu combination. Cafu is definitely better than Andrade

 

[Indnyc]

I have to say, I like @Indnyc's side much better than I did in the last round

• the addition of Maldini
• more suitable position for Keane
• he's not playing against me

The point that I've made regarding Maldini + Brehme Nilton being potential match winners against Best Garrincha still applies, although they don't have a sweeper to cover for them.

On the other hand, I don't expect Falcao/Dzajic to help out Zanetti very often (Falcao had the engine to do it but I've never seen him doing a Davids-esque impression on the left), and Best plus Cafu is a fearsome right wing, probably an all-time best if we exclude Messi. Scirea is a fantastic cover though, and while I prefer Zanetti on the right, he played on the left well and often enough to offer them significant resistance.

Vierchowod on Law is a good fit (against some parallels with the last game ) — a physical beast with outstanding pace to keep and eye on Scot's perpetual movement. Same is true for McGrath - van Basten though.

Tough one!

Lol

Aye i was glad to get Maldini.. I actually thought Mjj would pick Maldini rather than Scirea but can understand his pick

 

[harms]

Falcao led an average Roma side to the title against one of the best club sides of all time (containing Scirea, Platini, Cabrini, Boniek, Gentile, Tardelli, Rossi and Zoff).

What the feck That Roma side had, aside from Falcão: Conti, Vierchowod, Prohaska, Ancelotti, Di Bartolomei, Giannini, Pruzzo... And finished runners up in the next year's European Cup. Average, my ass!


Which version of Suarez is this? Barcelona or Inter?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Opened the thread to almost immediately vote for indnyc but not seeing Maldini at LB makes it a contest for me.

Liked the idea of a Maldini-Blanc-Mcgrath-Cafu defense.

 

[harms]

Liked the idea of a Maldini-Blanc-Mcgrath-Cafu defense.

Forgot that it was an option. I like your backline better, especially with the infamous Garrincha/Nilton training stories.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Opened the thread to almost immediately vote for indnyc but not seeing Maldini at LB makes it a contest for me.

Liked the idea of a Maldini-Blanc-Mcgrath-Cafu defense.

That would have made a big difference for me having Maldini on Garrincha compared to against Nilton (where Nilton has admitted Garrincha was his kryptonite basically).

 

[Indnyc]

Opened the thread to almost immediately vote for indnyc but not seeing Maldini at LB makes it a contest for me.

Liked the idea of a Maldini-Blanc-Mcgrath-Cafu defense.

Interesting.. I didn't think about that combination at all.. Maldini to me is the ultimate defender.. World class as left back and center back

I think Santos is rated higher as a left back than Blanc at center back which is the reason for the current lineup

 

[Indnyc]

That would have made a big difference for me having Maldini on Garrincha compared to against Nilton (where Nilton has admitted Garrincha was his kryptonite basically).

I feel Santos offers a bit more offensively than Maldini and having Maldini as left CB helps a lot in neutralizing Garrincha as much as he can be stopped

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Interesting.. I didn't think about that combination at all.. Maldini to me is the ultimate defender.. World class as left back and center back

I think Santos is rated higher as a left back than Blanc at center back which is the reason for the current lineup

You'd ideally want your best defender on his best attacker.

Blanc's reading of the game and McGrath's physicality works for me against Van Basten although they can both be upgraded of course. Also, with Maldini at CB minding Van Basten (definitely not a one man job leaving it to McGrath), I am not sure how much he could afford covering for Santos.

Another thing being Blanc's passing which will help build from the back. While both your fullbacks are capable of that, always like at least 1 CB capable of doing that.

MJJ's addition of Scirea is a welcome change from the pale CB combination earlier and the MF is a great match with Indnyc's own great MF.

Best-Cafu is still a trump card. Can't post more due to limits, so look forward to reading both the sides before voting later. Good luck.

 

[MJJ]

Please check all the quotes in the OP, @MJJ, in case something is missing, they usually get fecked up with copypasting. For the future, it's better to take a screenshot and add an image to the write up.

Will keep that in mind for the future, looks alright thanks for setting it up.

 

[MJJ]

Getting some of the points from Mjj's Op answered

Both the teams match up well, indy's right-side is fearsomely offensive with Best and Cafu and is very well balanced by the left side of Giggs and Santos. However, I think my side has a slight edge in all the key battles which will prove decisive.

• I have the best defender on the pitch in Scirea who will be vital in negating the talents of the holy trinity while providing an edge in midfield. Vierchowod's pace will be crucial here as well.

Fair enough in Scirea though Maldini works well here for me.

• I also have the best striker on the pitch in Van Basten supplied by two GOAT wingers. Giggs while very good lacks a bit offensively and that can make a difference between two evenly matched sides like this.

Giggs doesn't lack offensively at all. Not sure what you mean by that? Giggs though is significantly more hard working than the other 3 wingers which helps in the defensive phase against Garrincha

• Van Basten's clinicalness. With two sides so evenly matched, the side who puts away half chances will win. Van Basten's ability to score from anywhere, no matter how tight the angle can prove the difference.

Fair point but as noted before, my central defense matches pretty well with him.

• Maybe a controversial statement on a united board but both Falcao and suarez are slightly better midfielders than Keane/edwards.

You comparing different players. Keane is significantly better than Makelele with Edwards/Charlton comparable to Falcao and Suarez

• Garrincha became famous cos he kept tearing n.santos to shreds in training, the same will happen here. On the otherhand, Zanetti is one of the few fullbacks who can maybe stop or lessen Best's effect on the match.

Don't really like Zanetti on the left. He is still very effective but i prefer him to be on the right.. Zanetti doesn't have as much support from Dzajic as Santos will get from Giggs

• McGrath vs MVB: Will have a seperate post on this later but they faced each other twice and McGrath played in midfield both times(did move to right back in the first encouter after Morris's injury) and with both sides not looking to score in the second encounter after England led.

So while the right side of both teams is about par(slight edge to Indy depending on how you rate cafu vs andrade), there is a big difference on the left, significant in defense and attack and a slight advantage for me in midfield which should prove enough for me to win.

Don't think this is a just slight advantage.. I mentioned in the Op. that Zanetti/Andrade is a good defense but slightly lower than a Santos/Cafu combination. Cafu is definitely better than Andrade

Compared to all the other wingers on the pitch he does imo.

 

[MJJ]

What the feck That Roma side had, aside from Falcão: Conti, Vierchowod, Prohaska, Ancelotti, Di Bartolomei, Giannini, Pruzzo... And finished runners up in the next year's European Cup. Average, my ass!


Which version of Suarez is this? Barcelona or Inter?

Compared to what they were up against, it was average

From an All time perspective, only the likes of Conti, Vierchowod, Ancelotti get picked here so not sure how well the others are rated.

 

[Indnyc]

Compared to all the other wingers on the pitch he does imo.

Giggs's game has always been about contributing in both offense and defense. Is he the weakest winger on the pitch? Probably

Does he bring the most balance for the teams.. Definitely! He is the only one on the pitch who provides any defensive support

 

[Indnyc]

You'd ideally want your best defender on his best attacker.

Blanc's reading of the game and McGrath's physicality works for me against Van Basten although they can both be upgraded of course. Also, with Maldini at CB minding Van Basten (definitely not a one man job leaving it to McGrath), I am not sure how much he could afford covering for Santos.

Another thing being Blanc's passing which will help build from the back. While both your fullbacks are capable of that, always like at least 1 CB capable of doing that.

MJJ's addition of Scirea is a welcome change from the pale CB combination earlier and the MF is a great match with Indnyc's own great MF.

Best-Cafu is still a trump card. Can't post more due to limits, so look forward to reading both the sides before voting later. Good luck.

Fair point.. I do like McGrath as a ball playing centerback.. His passing was fantastic.

 

[MJJ]

Centre Backs vs Van Basten

1990

https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/928061

GK 1 Packie Bonner
RB 2 Chris Morris
CB 4 Mick McCarthy (c)
CB 5 Kevin Moran
LB 3 Steve Staunton
MF 7 Paul McGrath
MF 13 Andy Townsend
MF 8 Ray Houghton
MF 11 Kevin Sheedy

62'
FW 9 John Aldridge

62'
FW 17 Niall Quinn

1988

McGrath had been playing in midfield but relocated to right-back thanks to Chris Morris’s injury, and would have looked as just as home in orange as in green. But McGrath, and Ireland, were powerless against what must go down as one of history’s most fortuitous winners.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/ I R L-NED_1988-06-18.svg

Remove spaces for image, can't post it due to the stupid text speech autocorrect.

Soon after this the players on the pitch were made aware that England were leading in their match against Egypt through a Mark Wright goal. If both matches ended as they were the three European teams would go through at the expense of Egypt. If either Ireland or Holland lost then the loser would be heading home from Italia 90. It was in both team's interest not to risk losing. While there has never been any hard evidence to prove it, it appeared at the time that both teams colluded not to threaten each other's goal with the teams taking turns to play passing non-attacking passages of play until the final whistle.

Maldini also only faced Van Basten once in a back four, was either at left back or part of a back five otherwise.

 

[MJJ]

Giggs's game has always been about contributing in both offense and defense. Is he the weakest winger on the pitch? Probably

Does he bring the most balance for the teams.. Definitely! He is the only one on the pitch who provides any defensive support

Yes, and I think I recognised the balance he brings in my OP as well. While he does help you defensively, it does leave you a bit lacking in offense.

 

[MJJ]

You'd ideally want your best defender on his best attacker.

Blanc's reading of the game and McGrath's physicality works for me against Van Basten although they can both be upgraded of course. Also, with Maldini at CB minding Van Basten (definitely not a one man job leaving it to McGrath), I am not sure how much he could afford covering for Santos.

Another thing being Blanc's passing which will help build from the back. While both your fullbacks are capable of that, always like at least 1 CB capable of doing that.

MJJ's addition of Scirea is a welcome change from the pale CB combination earlier and the MF is a great match with Indnyc's own great MF.

Best-Cafu is still a trump card. Can't post more due to limits, so look forward to reading both the sides before voting later. Good luck.

So is Garrincha Andrade against a fullback who by his own admission suffered against him "never encountered a winger who could beat him with that much ease".

 

[Indnyc]

Yes, and I think I recognised the balance he brings in my OP as well. While he does help you defensively, it does leave you a bit lacking in offense.

Honestly, Giggs has made a living on being running down the wing.. He's also up against the weakest defender on the pitch in Andrade

 

[Indnyc]

So is Garrincha Andrade against a fullback who by his own admission suffered against him "never encountered a winger who could beat him with that much ease".

Sure he did.. But there are a lot of over exaggerated training stories.. Santos has Maldini on his side which is pretty much as good as it gets..

 

[Moby]

I feel Santos offers a bit more offensively than Maldini

Maldini would offer just as much at least, if not more, than Santos. While Santos was known for his playmaking from the back, he rarely ventured past the half way line. While Maldini on the other hand had a lot more pace and stamina, and ran up and down the flank consistently for most of his peak years. Not sure why he gets treated like a left sided Thuram at times. He was excellent going forward, loved doing that by his own admission and given his elite recovery pace and probably the best slide tackler the game has seen he was always able to make it back and win the ball. He played in narrow formations for Milan and Italy, and even played wingback plenty of times when he was at his physical peak.

 

[MJJ]

Sure he did.. But there are a lot of over exaggerated training stories.. Santos has Maldini on his side which is pretty much as good as it gets..

This is from his own admission? I would rather take the word of santos over how hard he found garrincha and the bet he made with the opposition goalkeeper based on those training sessions.

What happens when santos gets beat(which should be often if we take his word) and maldini has to go to cover garrincha? McGrath one on one with Van Basten won't end well if it happens a lot.

Honestly, Giggs has made a living on being running down the wing.. He's also up against the weakest defender on the pitch in Andrade

Is he? Antohan has previously used andrade to man-mark best out of the game and andrade made a living out of marking the opponents toughest winger. Will get the post for you in a bit, cooking now.

 

[Indnyc]

Maldini would offer just as much at least, if not more, than Santos. While Santos was known for his playmaking from the back, he rarely ventured past the half way line. While Maldini on the other hand had a lot more pace and stamina, and ran up and down the flank consistently for most of his peak years. Not sure why he gets treated like a left sided Thuram at times. He was excellent going forward, loved doing that by his own admission and given his elite recovery pace and probably the best slide tackler the game has seen he was always able to make it back and win the ball. He played in narrow formations for Milan and Italy, and even played wingback plenty of times when he was at his physical peak.

I am not treating as a left sided Thuram.. I felt Garrincha is Mjjs biggest threat and feel Santos - Maldini on the left side has a better chance of stopping him than Maldini - Blanc.. Maybe i am wrong and i should have started Blanc over Santos but the current set up isn't terrible either..

 

[Indnyc]

This is from his own admission? I would rather take the word of santos over how hard he found garrincha and the bet he made with the opposition goalkeeper based on those training sessions.

What happens when santos gets beat(which should be often if we take his word) and maldini has to go to cover garrincha? McGrath one on one with Van Basten won't end well if it happens a lot.

Is he? Antohan has previously used andrade to man-mark best out of the game and andrade made a living out of marking the opponents toughest winger. Will get the post for you in a bit, cooking now.

How often do you think Van Basten is going to be left all alone?

Yes? In a match up of Zanetti, Cafu, Santos.. Andrade is the weakest defender the same way Giggs is the weakest winger

 

[Moby]

I am not treating as a left sided Thuram.. I felt Garrincha is Mjjs biggest threat and feel Santos - Maldini on the left side has a better chance of stopping him than Maldini - Blanc.. Maybe i am wrong and i should have started Blanc over Santos but the current set up isn't terrible either..

Simply commenting on the ability going forward. I'd definitely bank on Maldini more in terms of doubling up Andrade constantly throughout the game.

 

[MJJ]

How often do you think Van Basten is going to be left all alone?

Yes? In a match up of Zanetti, Cafu, Santos.. Andrade is the weakest defender the same way Giggs is the weakest winger

Depends, how often Garrincha beats Santos(which should be pretty often based on his admission)

Fair enough but he is used to marking bigger threats than giggs out of the match.

Also,

The Highest Defender's Peaks of All-Time
1. Franz Beckenbauer
2. Matthias Sammer
3. Jose Leandro Andrade
4. Paolo Maldini
5. Elias Figueroa
6. Daniel Passarella
7. Gaetano Scirea
8. Bobby Moore
9. Giacinto Facchetti
9. Lilian Thuram
10. Ronald Koeman

http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2013/07/Defender.html

 

[MJJ]

I have to say, I like @Indnyc's side much better than I did in the last round

• the addition of Maldini
• more suitable position for Keane
• he's not playing against me

The point that I've made regarding Maldini + Brehme Nilton being potential match winners against Best Garrincha still applies, although they don't have a sweeper to cover for them.

On the other hand, I don't expect Falcao/Dzajic to help out Zanetti very often (Falcao had the engine to do it but I've never seen him doing a Davids-esque impression on the left), and Best plus Cafu is a fearsome right wing, probably an all-time best if we exclude Messi. Scirea is a fantastic cover though, and while I prefer Zanetti on the right, he played on the left well and often enough to offer them significant resistance.

Vierchowod on Law is a good fit (against some parallels with the last game ) — a physical beast with outstanding pace to keep and eye on Scot's perpetual movement. Same is true for McGrath - van Basten though.

Tough one!

Between makelele, falcao, scirea and zanetti I think we can limit the damage to some extent. Ofcourse nobody is completely stopping that flank.

 

[harms]

Is he? Antohan has previously used andrade to man-mark best out of the game and andrade made a living out of marking the opponents toughest winger. Will get the post for you in a bit, cooking now.

Was it this one? Or the nephew?

 

[MJJ]

Was it this one? Or the nephew?

This one I think, let me double check.

 

[MJJ]

People were taken aback by the fluid passing, the ingenuity, the attacking flair... At the centre of it all was José Leandro Andrade, the right halfback. Halfbacks were usually defensive, some attacking, but very few combined both. Andrade was the one organising the defensive line, but also bringing the ball out of defence and acting, effectively, as a deep-lying playmaker.

No one got anywhere near him, or else they would risk embarrassment. It was his dribbling and passing range which made him the Black Marvel, but also the way he run the game at a time when the pitch was split into halves and connecting them two was a long ball. Andrade would keep the ball at feet and progress, attacking the space until some poor sod broke the line and came to stop him, providing the gap for a 5 vs. 4 or an opportunity to dribble through and turn that into 5 vs. 3. Revolutionary stuff, ridiculous as it may now sound.

Don't get me wrong, his defensive duties were of significant importance so in a tight game those would be prioritised. You certainly wouldn't find him running the length of the pitch then. Just to highlight his defensive nous I offer the following:

• 1924 final, against a free-scoring Switzerland. Their star player, Abegglen was the tournament top scorer so far. He operated at inside left, Andrade shut him out: 3-0.

• 1928 final, against eternal rivals Argentina. Top scorer of the tournament Tarasconi, inside left, shut out. 1-1 and 2-1 (no ET or penos then), both Argentine goals came from the other flank.

• 1930 final, again against Argentina, who had the tournos top scorer again (a CF though). Andrade was man of the match keeping Uruguay in the game while still 2-1 down and at 2-2. Both goals scored from the left flank again.

He was immense and had the attributes to do a job either on the right of a DM pair or at fullback.

But back to the story... it was Andrade's success and acclaim at the Paris Olympics that finally forced the Brazilian Federation's hand. Fortunate for us spectators, unfortunate for every side they have pissed on since!

He could be a DM in a two (e.g. where Effenberg is) or a right back. I think right back is safest, his defensive record is superb and one of the few things there is also footage that can be drawn upon.

He had all the attributes for a modern rightback or wingback, while I think the game has evolved significantly in central midfield. I think it would be very very hard to get away with a central midfielder pre-70s except for a few token ones, let alone pre-war when there wasn't really a midfield per se but more a case of two 5-a-side pitches either side of the halfway line.

Andrade was called the Black Marvel for pretty much being the first not to punt it over but to venture from one to the other with ball at feet, creating havoc, but the way central midfields work today would be completely alien to him.

The reason he could venture across was he was an exceptional dribbler and passer, he had the confidence he could either attack space or take a man on and create a numerical advantage,

while having the recovery pace to run back and cover if things went awry. That's precisely what you want from a modern fullback!

Andrade is not going upfield, he has a man-marking detail on a winger. Wingers were ubiquitous in bygone eras, everyone played with them and the right half marked them.

Beckenbauer is not covering him, he is positioning himself where he sees fit to keep things tight and providing an excellent outlet to transition to attack.

When Facchetti is upfield Ronaldo is looked after and, as shown above, Facchetti was very clear and mindful of his defensive duties. Rijkaard's cover is just precautionary, most times he will be all the way back next to Ronaldo while Cutch is still in his own defensive third. He actually chose football over a career as an athlete, no worries there.

@harms the winger there is Best.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-fantasy-draft-final-antohan-v-cutch.366761/

You are absolutely right there was a difference between the two, particularly in their pomp. Peak JL (1924-28) was a truly exceptional player and among the first to be World Class both in attacking and defensive phases. You could truly call him box-to-box or have him down as a wingback. DM is actually too negative to describe him. I'd say in 1930 he was more like that but deeper and with wing duties, thus my inclination to see him more like a modern RCB.

It's difficult with older players though, loads of inaccuracies flying about. If you are referring to the Football Greatest website (the one which doesn't actually describe players but provide wikilinks), I'd warn you I've found a fair number of cock ups in there (ignoring polls which are typical web nonsense). Largely excellent though.

 

[Indnyc]

Depends, how often Garrincha beats Santos(which should be pretty often based on his admission)

Fair enough but he is used to marking bigger threats than Giggs out of the match.

Also,

The Highest Defender's Peaks of All-Time
1. Franz Beckenbauer
2. Matthias Sammer
3. Jose Leandro Andrade
4. Paolo Maldini
5. Elias Figueroa
6. Daniel Passarella
7. Gaetano Scirea
8. Bobby Moore
9. Giacinto Facchetti
9. Lilian Thuram
10. Ronald Koeman

http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2013/07/Defender.html

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-left-backs-of-all-time.1293864/page-5

Zanetti doesn't feature at all for Left backs.. And is 11th for Right backs.. So are you then saying Zanetti is the weakest full back on the pitch?

Left Backs

10. JÚNIOR (Brazil)
9. DE VECCHI, Renzo (Italy)
8. SCHNELLINGER, Karl-Heinz (Germany)
7. MARZOLINI, Silvio (Argentina)
6. BREITNER, Paul (Germany)
5. HAPGOOD, Eddie (England)
4. ROBERTO CARLOS (Brazil)
3. FACCHETTI, Giacinto (Italy)
2. NILTON SANTOS (Brazil)
1. MALDINI, Paolo (Italy)

Right Backs

10. JANES, Paul (Germany)
9. NASAZZI, José (Uruguay)
8. BERGMARK, Orvar (Sweden)
7. CARLOS ALBERTO (Brazil)
6. CROMPTON, Bob (England)
5. THURAM, Lilian (France)
4. RODRÍGUEZ ANDRADE, Víctor (Uruguay)
3. VOGTS, Berti (West Germany)
2. CAFÚ (Brazil)
1. DJALMA SANTOS (Brazil)

 

[Indnyc]

Also, who are the bigger threats than Giggs that Andrade has marked out of the game?

 

[Moby]

Think Giggs will be critical in this game especially as there's Garrincha on his side who he'll willingly track. In Maldini, Edwards and Nilton there's a really great wall put up against Garrincha who along with Giggs will ensure that he's always double teamed without letting other areas get exposed. Similarly on the other hand think that left sided pitch occupied by Giggs with Sir Bobby drifting towards the inside left channel and Nilton always in good support it will definitely trouble Andrade with little support from Garrincha.

Ind's right side is pretty explosive but I really like the no. of two-way players on that left side with great balance which comes against the most dangerous opponent. Will be a big factor imo.

 

[MJJ]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-left-backs-of-all-time.1293864/page-5

Zanetti doesn't feature at all for Left backs.. And is 11th for Right backs.. So are you then saying Zanetti is the weakest full back on the pitch?

Left Backs

10. JÚNIOR (Brazil)
9. DE VECCHI, Renzo (Italy)
8. SCHNELLINGER, Karl-Heinz (Germany)
7. MARZOLINI, Silvio (Argentina)
6. BREITNER, Paul (Germany)
5. HAPGOOD, Eddie (England)
4. ROBERTO CARLOS (Brazil)
3. FACCHETTI, Giacinto (Italy)
2. NILTON SANTOS (Brazil)
1. MALDINI, Paolo (Italy)

Right Backs

10. JANES, Paul (Germany)
9. NASAZZI, José (Uruguay)
8. BERGMARK, Orvar (Sweden)
7. CARLOS ALBERTO (Brazil)
6. CROMPTON, Bob (England)
5. THURAM, Lilian (France)
4. RODRÍGUEZ ANDRADE, Víctor (Uruguay)
3. VOGTS, Berti (West Germany)
2. CAFÚ (Brazil)
1. DJALMA SANTOS (Brazil)

Always found big soccer's list a bit suspect, they seem to overrate oldies a lot and have some weird rating in between. Like nobody here has Karl-Heinz as number four, the point I was showing was how his peak is appreciated.

Edit- Also all these lists make a point of only including players once, like maldini won't feature at CB.

 

[Indnyc]

Always found big soccer's list a bit suspect, they seem to overrate oldies a lot and have some weird rating in between. Like nobody here has Karl-Heinz as number four, the point I was showing was how his peak is appreciated.

My point was we can each find different websites that rate players differently. To me the weakest full back is Andrade and i don't think that is an unfair statement in a world of Santos, Cafu and Zanetti