The Road Trip Draft QF: Indnyc vs harms

[harms]

Bump. I've said this already, but to think that Keane is somehow able to do what the likes of Rijkaard consistently fail to is a bit weird to me, even on United forum. Schuster/Davids/Maradona is a fantastic midfield and a better balanced that Indnyc's trio. There's no way anyone's going to

makes it very easy for the United boys to boss the midfield

• Maradona consistently performed against better defensive units that this — most notably Sacchi's Milan (Rijkaard + Baresi & co)
• Blokhin and Elkjær, who are getting underrated here (understandably so), outplayed better defenders (Beckenbauer and Scirea as the golden standard) even without the help of Maradona — I can't imagine how easier it will be for them here
• Yashin made his name by deciding the games on his own. He is by far the better keeper who has pedigree of outshining Indnyc's stars
• Best and Cafu, one of the best possible right wing combinations, are up against the GOAT pairing of Brehme and Maldini, with the cover from Davids and Figueroa. It literally doesn't get better than this
• Blokhin, Maradona and Elkjær are going to press Indnyc's defence ferociously — and he doesn't have even one elite passer in his central defence or in his defensive midfield

Blokhin taking everything in his hands and scoring past Maier while beating Beckenbauer and Schwarzenbeck on the way (alongside a few more dazzled Germans). He scored 3 goals in 2 games against them that year, and the tie ended 3:0. It wasn't a purple patch — he performed brilliantly against them in 1976/77, when Dynamo Kiev eliminated Bayern from the European Cup who were on their way to their 4th consecutive title



Elkjær scoring against Scirea's Juventus with only one boot (he the second one after defender's clumsy challenge) — a symbolic moment. He lead Hellas Verona to their first (and only) Serie A title, beating European Cup winning Juventus side (Platini, Boniek, Rossi, Scirea, Cabrini, Tardelli) in the league.




Diego Maradona — a player with the highest individual peak in this sport's history


Elías Figueroa — not letting Gerd Müller do anything in an inch-perfect individual performance at the highest stage

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Maradona consistently performed against better defensive units that this — most notably Sacchi's Milan (Rijkaard + Baresi & co)

The 'he beat Sacchi's Milan with the best DM and defense of all time, so no one can stop Maradona' argument is a fairly disappointing one in a drafting sense. Might as well give byes to whoever has Maradona.

I've said this already, but to think that Keane is somehow able to do what the likes of Rijkaard consistently fail to is a bit weird to me, even on United forum

This again is absolutely ridiculous. Edwards was considered a destroyer capable enough of being the best player in the world (not just his position). Sure, he is not holding here, but Maradona will feel his presence. I don't understand how Keane and Edwards can be bettered balance and defensive nous wise (Apart from Rijkaard/Matthaus). As someone said, if anyone has the ego and and capability to stand up to this challenge, its Roy fecking Keane.

Schuster/Davids/Maradona is a fantastic midfield and a better balanced that Indnyc's trio.

Its a fantastic midfield alright (keeping aside my dislike for Schuster in the role), but its again ridiculous to say its better balanced than Indy's. Just how?

All 3 MF's in both teams are capable of contributing in attack.
And if I had to rank defensive contributions from both midfields, it would be:

1. Keane
2. Davids/Edwards
3. Charlton/Schuster
....
22. Maradona

On the defensive side, he clearly has the better balance.
Sure, you could add Figueroa to the equation, but he could add Giggs and Law too.

I might be sounding biased at this point, but I feel you are not giving enough credit to your opposition.
Also, that is my post count done for the day, so good luck with the rest of the game.

 

[harms]

Its a fantastic midfield alright (keeping aside my dislike for Schuster in the role), but its again ridiculous to say its better balanced than Indy's. Just how?

Because I have a GOAT number 10, a defensive box-to-box and a playmaking midfield general, and they have 2 box-to-box and a playmaker up front (with no elite ball-playing center back as well). And Figueroa/Giggs/Law argument it weird. First, Figueroa's defending is not equal to that of Giggs and Law He is one of the best defenders in history and they are relatively hardworking attackers. Second, if you're counting them, you have to count Blokhin and Elkjær, who both are going to contribute more than Giggs defensively — at least. I'd probably have them ahead of Law as well, but the difference is not as big between them.

 

[green_smiley]

The 'he beat Sacchi's Milan with the best DM and defense of all time, so no one can stop Maradona' argument is a fairly disappointing one in a drafting sense. Might as well give byes to whoever has Maradona.

Not true

 

[green_smiley]

That been said, loves harms' team. Plenty of attacking threat and fantastic work-rate all around

 

[harms]

The 'he beat Sacchi's Milan with the best DM and defense of all time, so no one can stop Maradona' argument is a fairly disappointing one in a drafting sense. Might as well give byes to whoever has Maradona.

It's not no one. It's a 3 vs 3 midfield battle with my supporting players more involved in it than Indnyc's (Figueroa/Blokhin/Elkjær vs Law), and a fairly even battle as well. Maradona doesn't even have a marker on him (Keane vs Davids is the main battle here, by Indnyc's words).

Rijkaard and Matthäus would've probably stopped him (or, at least, had a more than realistic chance). I don't rate Keane or Edwards (of that time, not potentially) at their level, frankly. And peak Maradona is a tougher task than 99' Zidane, by some margin. If everyone is minding Maradona, Schuster has it in him to decide games of the highest calibre (in any version of him; be it a young enigma that dominated the Euros or a midfield general who lead Barca to titles with supreme individual performances).

 

[Gio]

You can't make a straight comparison in midfield defensive robusness or work rate between the two trios when one is part of a 3-5-2 and the other a 4-2-3-1. Typically you can get away with a little less graft in the former because it is compensated with work rate and defensive solidity in other positions. For starters you normally have five defence-minded players in a 3-5-2 (as opposed to four in a back 4) in the wing-backs and centre-halves before we even get onto the midfield trio.

 

[harms]

You can't make a straight comparison in midfield defensive robusness or work rate between the two trios when one is part of a 3-5-2 and the other a 4-2-3-1. Typically you can get away with a little less graft in the former because it is compensated with work rate and defensive solidity in other positions. For starters you normally have five defence-minded players in a 3-5-2 (as opposed to four in a back 4) in the wing-backs and centre-halves before we even get onto the midfield trio.

Any thoughts on the game?

 

[Gio]

• The inclusion of Shesternyov, who has experience in neutralising Law and a proven partnership with Lev Yashin, will help me in this one. For the context — Scotland had just beaten England, the World Cup holders, at Wembley, and a few weeks later Celtic will win their first European Cup.

Yup, can't argue with that. Well beaten, at home as well. Didn't happen often around then - think we got the better of England, Italy, Germany all around that sort of time - which was testament to the quality of that Soviet side. What's Shesternyov's job here in terms of Law? Man-marking or picking him up if he comes across? Did you consider putting him central given Indnyc has just the one forward?

 

[harms]

Yup, can't argue with that. Well beaten, at home as well. Didn't happen often around then - think we got the better of England, Italy, Germany all around that sort of time - which was testament to the quality of that Soviet side. What's Shesternyov's job here in terms of Law? Man-marking or picking him up if he comes across? Did you consider putting him central given Indnyc has just the one forward?

I probably should've had, but I liked the thought of my best defender as the last man. Plus Shesternyov's pace is going to help cover for Amoros against Giggs.

Khurtsilava was on Law, Shesternyov covered for him and had an even better game going by the Soviet sources (unsurprisingly Law got away from Khurtsilava from time to time). Shesternyov shined in his usual fashion — more well-timed anticipations than crunching tackles.

 

[Indnyc]

Because I have a GOAT number 10, a defensive box-to-box and a playmaking midfield general, and they have 2 box-to-box and a playmaker up front (with no elite ball-playing center back as well). And Figueroa/Giggs/Law argument it weird. First, Figueroa's defending is not equal to that of Giggs and Law He is one of the best defenders in history and they are relatively hardworking attackers. Second, if you're counting them, you have to count Blokhin and Elkjær, who both are going to contribute more than Giggs defensively — at least. I'd probably have them ahead of Law as well, but the difference is not as big between them.

Giggs played most of his career in a 4-4-2; started a Champions League final in a midfield 2 but will have less defensive contribution than your 2 strikers?

Law was well known to drop deep and start plays as well.. My playmaker is arguably the best no. 10 to put in a defensive shift

 

[harms]

By the way, do you by any chance know of some place where you can find reports of Scotland's games by the Scottish journalists? I've found a translated article by John Mckenzie in Soviet press but I wasn't able to find the original.
@Gio

 

[Indnyc]

It’s quite late for me and likely the game will be over by the time I am up..

Good luck for the last few hours @harms

 

[harms]

Giggs played most of his career in a 4-4-2; started a Champions League final in a midfield 2 but will have less defensive contribution than your 2 strikers?

Law was well known to drop deep and start plays as well.. My playmaker is arguably the best no. 10 to put in a defensive shift

Yes. Blokhin was a key part for a few Lobanovsky's teams and Lobanovsky was the ultimate workrate/physicality freak (which lead to multiple revolts, despite him always getting the result). Imagine tactically astute Felix Magath. Blokhin ran for 90 minutes every game, pressing and pressing (see my compilations if you don't believe me).

The same is true for Eljær, although nobody forced him to, it was his natural game. I think this is one of the reasons why his career at the highest level was so short — his body wasn't able to cope with the amount of work he required from it. But when he was at the top of his game, he also ran for 90 minutes, pressing the hell out of the opposition. Giggs was always the man with the most freedom in that 4-4-2, almost a third forward, with Becks tucking in. And when he started in midfield 2 in the CL final, he got completely outclassed. Don't get me wrong, he is a hardworking winger, but if you count him, you should count my forwards.

 

[Gio]

By the way, do you by any chance know of some place where you can find reports of Scotland's games by the Scottish journalists? I've found a translated article by John Mckenzie in Soviet press but I wasn't able to find the original.
@Gio

You could have a look at the British Newspaper Archive. Not the most search-able database, but has a hell of a lot of content. Think the Herald had a good archive to search and usually would have international match reports. I've got a few books with reports but that Soviet one has been airbrushed out of Scottish folklore in favour of another result that year.

 

[Gio]

Any thoughts on the game?

Nothing groundbreaking. Both teams look well designed. Indnyc has reinforced brilliantly, bringing together the United all-time theme but bolstering it from Brazil where it would have been a little weak at full-back. Probably the strongest wing battle we've seen on here down your left and Indnyc's right - I cannot separate it to be honest. Like the balance of your attack, looks well served to complement Maradona. Elkjaer arguably the weakest striker in the competition, but a very natural fit there. Love the Blokhin pick - Theon and I had strongly considered him a couple of drafts ago next to Maradona.

 

[harms]

Just tagging a few regulars as the new votes are hardly coming in today. Will appreciate your take on the game (as usual).
@Invictus @Moby @Physiocrat @P-Nut0712 @antohan @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

I can definitely understand the allure of the Holy Trinity but I would love this game to have a more active discussion, at least.

 

[Theon]

I'm going to have more possession here, especially with Schuster orchestrating from the deep (something that neither of Indnyc's defensive midfielders can do)

Nah, don't agree with that at all. Think that's sacrilege on a United forum to be honest.

Keane was an elite level passer and a better dictator/controller of a football match than Schuster - he can definitely orchestrate from deep. There have only been a few players who were better at controlling a football match imo. That's something I've spoken about previously, so not just related to this match:

Keane by a distance - have to think most of these responses didn’t see Keane at his peak or are overrating Vieira.

Keane was the metronome and ultimate deep lying playmaker for United (not Scholes). Whilst playing that very role which provided the foundation of United offensive play, Keane was also arguably the best central midfielder in Europe in terms of the defensive phase - whether that was ball winning or positional play.

The passing ability of Keane is severely underrated - the aggression with which Keane played seems to have clouded his ability as a footballer. He was comfortably better and more complete as a footballer than Vieira imo.

You're severely underestimating Keane and he was far, far more than an extrovert who played with his heart on his sleeve. That's a terrible description. You make him sound like a technically limited hacker when the fact is that first and foremost Keane was an exceptional footballer.

It was Keane that made United tick in his prime, the game flowed through him. It's not surprising given his personality or awkward way of playing, but Keane is a hugely underrated passer and as others have mentioned the gulf with him and Scholes is not so wide as to be a silly comparison. Scholes was clearly the better passer because he was simply capable of doing things that Keane could not and he had a variety of passes that Keane could not match.

However when it comes to the short, sharp passes which control a game of football there are only a handful of players superior to Keane - he mastered passes over 15-20 yards. Which goes back to your point that it was others who made United tick, which just isn't true as far as I can tell. It would be Keane collecting the ball from the centre backs, Keane being that base in midfield setting the tempo and initiating attacks and Keane being the one to knock passes side to side probing for gaps. Scholes would generally be further forward, back then.

As I said Scholes was still clearly the better passer because he could match Keane's short game whilst surpassing him elsewhere, but at what Keane did there are very few better.

In terms of who the better footballer was then I would have to say Keane, given how instrumental he was to the side and how much stronger he made the team in so many different ways. Scholes was the technically better footballer but that's just one aspect of the question.

 

[harms]

Nah, don't agree with that at all. Think that's sacrilege on a United forum to be honest.

Keane was an elite level passer and a better dictator/controller of a football match than Schuster. There have only been a few players who were better at controlling a football match imo. That's something I've spoken about previously, so not just related to this match

Interesting.

Don't agree with that opinion, especially regarding him and Schuster, but fair game. I'm afraid that it's going from one extreme to another — many general fans view Keane as nothing but an overly-aggressive ball-winner, which is a significant underrating of his passing ability, but he wasn't an "elite level passer" like, say, Scholes or Veron (I'm taking those who've played with him and were easily superior in that aspect), or Schuster in my book. He was very good at moving the game forward but, again, it's not comparable to actual playmakers.

 

[Theon]

Interesting.

Don't agree with that opinion, especially regarding him and Schuster, but fair game. I'm afraid that it's going from one extreme to another — many general fans view Keane as nothing but an overly-aggressive ball-winner, which is a significant underrating of his passing ability, but he wasn't an "elite level passer" like, say, Scholes or Veron (I'm taking those who've played with him and were easily superior in that aspect), or Schuster in my book. He was very good at moving the game forward but, again, it's not comparable to actual playmakers.

It's a different form of passing.

Pinging 40 yard cross-field passes isn't something Keane would do, but that's just one type of pass. And that's not the type of pass that controls a game of football. The type which typically control a match are 15 - 20 yards, on the ground to people's feet. And Keane was a master at that.

And Keane was a playmaker.

 

[P-Nut]

Can't find a single fault with both sides really, and so it comes down to personal preference.

Top attacking full backs with excellent wingers takes it for me. United influence probably adds a little bit, but I've tried to take that out of it as much as possible.

 

[Don Alfredo]

As has been mentioned before, the midfield battle is key here.

One thing I don't agree with is that you can only stop Maradona with Matthaus or Rikjaard (but not even with him because Diego destroyed him?) and otherwise it is an automatic win for the manager with Diego. The Matthaus point is especially interesting because the narrative in Germany is quite the opposite, that Matthaus failed at stopping him in 86 and that it was one of the biggest tactical mistakes by Beckenbauer to have Matthaus man-mark Diego. Italia 90' was where it went the right way, with Matthaus playing his usual role and Buchwald man-marking Diego.

I think there is a number of elite midfielders who can stop Diego if the tactics around them are right. Varela, Schweinsteiger, Keane and Desailly are some players who I think have a good chance to limit Diego's influence, if they have great players around them of course.

Another aspect I think is a bit overlooked here is the offensive quality of Indnyc's midfield. Edwards and Charlton are both ridiculously potent in the attacking phase and I think Schuster is not that great at defending that he gives Davids enough support to stop them completely. I guess harms wanted Voronin to replace Schuster and that could have easily tilted the balance in his favour.

harms has championed Blokhin and Elkjaer here to no end because they scored against Beckenbauer and Scirea, but the thing is they were not the only players to do that. I think both are excellent players in their respective roles, but the reality is that those two together is not that great of a strike-force at this level, where the opponent has Law-Charlton-Best. When you build around Maradona, you have to keep in mind that he is like the worst goalscorer out of any GOAT #10/SS/CF. It is absolutely necessary to combine him with a great goalscorer like Puskas or Romario, or it all looks very blunt offensively. Most Maradona teams only have 3 attackers anyway and the rest of the side is very defensive, that means those three need to have many goals in them and those numbers are lacking here a bit.

Indnyc's relative weak points are the CBs and if harms had a GOAT attacker, he could have taken advantage of that.

 

[harms]

When you build around Maradona, you have to keep in mind that he is like the worst goalscorer out of any GOAT #10/SS/CF. It is absolutely necessary to combine him with a great goalscorer like Puskas or Romario, or it all looks very blunt offensively. Most Maradona teams only have 3 attackers anyway and the rest of the side is very defensive, that means those three need to have many goals in them and those numbers are lacking here a bit.

Going just by wiki stats (league + national team).
Charlton + Best + Law = 733 goals
Maradona + Blokhin + Elkjær = 741 goals

Schuster from midfield almost matches Giggs' output, despite him not having an international career.

harms has championed Blokhin and Elkjaer here to no end because they scored against Beckenbauer and Scirea, but the thing is they were not the only players to do that.

Thing is, they did it single-handedly — by taking the whole Bayern/Juventus team and beating them all the way to the goal. I don't remember many doing that. And Maradona obviously did it to multiple teams and defences.

 

[harms]

One thing I don't agree with is that you can only stop Maradona with Matthaus or Rikjaard (but not even with him because Diego destroyed him?) and otherwise it is an automatic win for the manager with Diego.

It's not an automatic win for every Diego manager. It's just that my defence (including midfield) has a better chance of handling Indnyc's offence that the other way round — in my opinion.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@harms I really don‘t know how to rate Blokhin‘s goal statistics based on the league he played in.

Obviously I am not dismissing his quality because we know he is a great player. It is just that if you want to use him in your team, you ideally have a GOAT scorer like Puskas, Muller, Pele next to him, same with Elkjaer. I know that Puskas also did put up big numbers for Honved, but his international goals / games ratio is simply something else.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Jesus harms, first alluding to the score and then doing so again by tagging people who hadn’t voted

 

[harms]

@harms I really don‘t know how to rate Blokhin‘s goal statistics based on the league he played in.

Obviously I am not dismissing his quality because we know he is a great player. It is just that if you want to use him in your team, you ideally have a GOAT scorer like Puskas, Muller, Pele next to him, same with Elkjaer. I know that Puskas also did put up big numbers for Honved, but his international goals / games ratio is simply something else.

Well, I'm not going to argue that having a GOAT goalscorer is worse than not having one It's just that there isn't really a big difference between my attack and Indnyc's in terms of goalscoring. Soviet league was quite good at the time.

 

[harms]

Jesus harms, first alluding to the score and then doing so again by tagging people who hadn’t voted

What?

 

[Don Alfredo]

Well, I'm not going to argue that having a GOAT goalscorer is worse than not having one It's just that there isn't really a big difference between my attack and Indnyc's in terms of goalscoring. Soviet league was quite good at the time.

Alright I‘ll trust you on that one. You are in a much better position to judge that

Are there any players we should take note of who played there during his time? I know Shesternyov who was a bit earlier, also Demyanenko and Bessonov who played with Blokhin.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

What?

You tagged people who hadn’t voted, and also after indnyc told you he might not be back before the game is over. Not really fair is it?

 

[harms]

You tagged people who hadn’t voted, and also after indnyc told you he might not be back before the game is over. Not really fair is it?

Nope. We’ve both made our points and now I’m asking draft regulars for their opinion, nothing wrong with that in my book.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Nope. We’ve both made our points and now I’m asking draft regulars for their opinion, nothing wrong with that in my book.

Course not.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think this is really close. Both have great sides with little areas for improvement. I think Indnyc has a tad more goal threat but not by much, plus harms back 3 are quality. Can't call a winner.

 

[Indnyc]

Yes. Blokhin was a key part for a few Lobanovsky's teams and Lobanovsky was the ultimate workrate/physicality freak (which lead to multiple revolts, despite him always getting the result). Imagine tactically astute Felix Magath. Blokhin ran for 90 minutes every game, pressing and pressing (see my compilations if you don't believe me).

The same is true for Eljær, although nobody forced him to, it was his natural game. I think this is one of the reasons why his career at the highest level was so short — his body wasn't able to cope with the amount of work he required from it. But when he was at the top of his game, he also ran for 90 minutes, pressing the hell out of the opposition. Giggs was always the man with the most freedom in that 4-4-2, almost a third forward, with Becks tucking in. And when he started in midfield 2 in the CL final, he got completely outclassed. Don't get me wrong, he is a hardworking winger, but if you count him, you should count my forwards.

I am not discounting your forwards (seen your videos btw ) but just was making the point that Giggs will give as much as them in the defensive phase

 

[Indnyc]

Nope. We’ve both made our points and now I’m asking draft regulars for their opinion, nothing wrong with that in my book.

It’s fine.. Would love to hear from others as well

 

[harms]

I guess harms wanted Voronin to replace Schuster and that could have easily tilted the balance in his favour.

Yeah. I took a big risk by finishing in Ukraine but really hoped to catch Voronin - Brehme link, and then to alternate my personnel depending on the opponent. Didn't want to use 2nd FIT too early. Shesternyov was a second choice and frankly the only one I'm not completely happy with here. Gio's (and someone else's) idea of using him centrally is very good, and I'd prefer that set up to mine, but the Brehme/Maldini/Figueroa unit was already formed in my mind, so I didn't even think of that option. Thought that it would make a bigger difference in terms of limiting Best as well, which surprisingly didn't seem to work.

 

[Indnyc]

Yeah. I took a big risk by finishing in Ukraine but really hoped to catch Voronin - Brehme link, and then to alternate my personnel depending on the opponent. Didn't want to use 2nd FIT too early. Shesternyov was a second choice and frankly the only one I'm not completely happy with here. Gio's (and someone else's) idea of using him centrally is very good, and I'd prefer that set up to mine, but the Brehme/Maldini/Figueroa unit was already formed in my mind, so I didn't even think of that option. Thought that it would make a bigger difference in terms of limiting Best as well, which surprisingly didn't seem to work.

Your defense was brilliant and my only area that i was worried about was my central defense. Good game.. It could genuinely have gone either way

 

[harms]

Good game, @Indnyc! You're in good position to upgrade your center backs and from there you're golden. I underestimated Holy Trinity's voting appeal, it's nice that they're getting much deserved appreciation.

 

[Indnyc]

Good game, @Indnyc! You're in good position to upgrade your center backs and from there you're golden. I underestimated Holy Trinity's voting appeal, it's nice that they're getting much deserved appreciation.

Thank you very much... I'll probably raid your team for my center backs

 

[Invictus]

Voted for @harms because I preferred his team by a slight margin over @Indnyc's admittedly beautiful United inspired scheme. However, on a general note — something needs to be done about Maradona to stave off the sheer blandness of his teams. Time and time again, you see setups that are only slight variations of each other — triggering a sense of cryptomnesia...

Spoiler

Bare minimal structural dissimilarity — select Maradona as the playmaker extraordinaire then pack the defensive lines and let him weave his magic — proven over time as a competitive recipe, but rather formulaic and doesn't require a great deal of innovation. Not even the '86 superhuman version vs. Belgium/England gets his day in the sun among all the 5-2-1-2 renditions!

Spoiler

Kinda feel the same way about Cruyff, but he's not remotely as overpowered and totaalvoetbal teams usually run into a brick wall considering the scheme requires very specific fits from the get go — and loses some of its effectiveness vs. GOAT-packed opposition(s).