The Road Trip Draft QF: Indnyc vs harms

Who will win the game based on all the players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .

Moby

Dick
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May 20, 2011
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Barcelona, Catalunya
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Indnyc -------------------------VS--------------------------harms

Indnyc Tactics

Formation: 4-3-3/4-5-1

Tactics
: Attack, Attack, Attack!!! Play the United way with fast paced wingers and stretch the pitch

Midfield

Keane and Edwards form a great double pivot in the defensive phase of the game. Additionally, Charlton will drop in deep and is expected to play a significant role in the midfield battle. Of course Maradona is the biggest threat to my team and we will stop him with a combination of Keane, and Edwards

Defence :

McGrath, Nasazzi and Fillol form a strong core. Nilton Santos is one of the all time greats and in Cafu we have a massive upgrade who will stretch the pitch and provide width and be a strong presence in the defensive phase of the game. He allows Best to play a more free role and roam around the final 3rd

Why we will win

1) Great attack - Best, Charlton, Law, Giggs is a breath taking front 4 who will score against the best of defenses.


harms Tactics

The team is built to bring out the best in, well, the best. Diego Maradona is in his element, being at the heart of a very energetic, aggressive and yet immensely talented team. The others will be carrying water for him so that he can walk on it.

My first priority after securing Maradona was to build an infallible defence. Figueroa and Maldini both have a genuine claim on the defensive GOAT status and their partner in crime Shesternyov has a history of handling Denis Law, the opposition's lead striker (to be discussed). He was a true physical specimen — tall, strong and with a monstrous leap, but also able to run 100 meters in just 11 seconds! Legendary Yashin forms the last line of my defence with his intimidating presence — his name alone was often enough to force a mistake out of the opposing forwards. My tireless wingbacks will be actively participating in both parts of the game. Brehme, for me, is the first choice for this exact role, and Amoros have proven himself at the highest possible level.

My midfielders are well-known and they all play in the roles they historically excelled in. Edgar Davids is a box-to-box midfield dynamo who combined aggressive closing in and tackling with street footballer's tricks, while Bernd Schuster is responsible for creativity from the back. This is not a 20 y.o. enigma that shined at the 1980 Euros but a mature Schuster, a true midfield general that formed a telepathic understanding with Maradona at Barcelona and finished 3rd in 1985 Ballon d'Or vote. And then there's Maradona.

From the very beginning I planned to get Blokhin and Elkjær as Maradona's aids. It's hard to imagine a more tenacious front three and they'll be my first line of defence, I will comment on this point in the thread if needed. But first and foremost, they were genius footballers — while Elkjær's peak was not very long, he was undoubtedly the greatest striker in the world for a few years; Blokhin won Ballon d'Or ahead of Cruyff and Beckenbauer and did it in astonishing fashion. They consistently performed against the greatest defenders, not only of that era, but of all-time — Elkjær haunted Scirea both for Verona and for Denmark and Blokhin ran the show in the clashes between Dynamo and Beckenbauer's Bayern in the 70's. Again, if anyone's interested, I can comment on this in the thread. Their sheer pace and fantastic off the ball movement will be a devastating mix with Maradona's vision and playmaking — and both are very comfortable out wide, which allows Diego to make his trademark runs forward.

Thoughts on the game:

It's hard to argue against a team full of United legends, including the Holy Trinity itself, but I'll raise a few of points.

  • George Best, Indnyc's most talented player, faces a left side as formidable as it comes — Andreas Brehme and Paolo Maldini with the support (if needed) of Edgar Davids. Like it's not enough, Elías Figueroa himself is patrolling the space behind them and Lev Yashin, the greatest keeper that football had ever seen, is ready to stop anything that comes his way.
  • The best player on the pitch is in ideal position to provide a match-winning performance — all the players around him were picked because of how well they suit his game.
  • The pace of Blokhin (one of the fastest players ever) and Elkjær, as well as their relentless pressing, will probably be a tough challenge to Nasazzi, who'd never played against such players.
  • It's won't be the first time when Lev Yashin shines the brightest on the field full of all-time greats. The performance that secured him Ballon d'Or in 1963 saw him playing against the likes of Charlton, Moore and Greaves and outperforming his teammates — Law, Di Stefano, Eusebio, Puskas, Kopa etc.
  • The inclusion of Shesternyov, who has experience in neutralising Law and a proven partnership with Lev Yashin, will help me in this one. For the context — Scotland had just beaten England, the World Cup holders, at Wembley, and a few weeks later Celtic will win their first European Cup.​

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First thought for harms team was I quite didn't understand Forster getting dropped for Shesternyov, found the German a lot more natural in that side CB role as a marker/stopper with excellent credibility in similar assignments.
 
First thought for harms team was I quite didn't understand Forster getting dropped for Shesternyov, found the German a lot more natural in that side CB role as a marker/stopper with excellent credibility in similar assignments.

Agreed.

Was really surprised to see Forster getting dropped. My first thought is it’s a weaker back three as Forster is both the better player imo and also had fantastic credentials in a 3-5-2.

That said, I don’t know a huge amount about the type of systems Shesternyov played in so open to being corrected there by harms - he may have played similar side CB roles in the USSR.

But yeah, was definitely surprised by those upgrades.
 
First thought for harms team was I quite didn't understand Forster getting dropped for Shesternyov, found the German a lot more natural in that side CB role as a marker/stopper with excellent credibility in similar assignments.
Yeah it doesn't look like an upgrade sideways move at best.
 
Good luck @Indnyc. As I said in the write up, it's pretty much impossible to criticise a team full of United legends, all of whom I rate extremely high. Still, when we compare our defensive units, I think that I'm better equipped to handle his attack that he is to deal with mine.

In Yashin, Figueroa, Maldini and Brehme I have the all-time standouts in their respective position. I have a feeling that only Figueroa from that very elite tier of center backs (Figueroa, Moore, Scirea) could've potentially rivalled Baresi for the top spot if there were more available footage of him. Not only he was voted South American Footballer of the Year 3 times, there are multiple reports of him being voted as best player in the World by FIFA in 1975 and 1976. Even with how it is, Figueroa is arguably the most complete center back of all-time, considering his elite aerial ability.

I love McGrath to bits, but his defensive unit is still not quite up to my ridiculous standard. The additional point would be that he doesn't have an elite passer from the back, even though he has a few competent ones — and with Blokhin and Elkjær up front it can be costly. I mean Blokhin managed to create problems even for Beckenbauer, by definition the most press-resistant defender in history, on multiple occasions, with his constant running and pressing. Same is true for Elkjær — a perpetual motion machine and one of the best possible fits for Maradona
The Guardian's profile said:
He was determination incarnate, and his seemingly endless lung capacity is even more amazing given that he was a chain smoker. Often he would go on me-against-the-world runs, culminating most notably in famous strikes against Belgium and USSR. He would simply run through defenders (see his goal against Scotland in 1986) and if a brick wall got in the way, well, he'd take his chances. In short, nothing was going to stop him scoring, and it was fitting that, in the 1984-85 season in which he inspired little Verona to the Serie A title, he scored a superb solo goal against the reigning champions Juventus with no boot on his right foot, having lost it during a surge down the left. He nagged away at defenders constantly, inverting the 80s relationship between defender and attacker, and must have been a nightmare to play against.

Yet there was so much more to Elkjær than raw desire. He had wonderful balance and sublime skill: one ninja-like turn on Russell Osman during the 2-2 draw in 1982 boggles the mind almost as much as the famous Dennis Bergkamp goal at Newcastle; he developed the Elkjær turn, a spin-off of the Cruyff turn, when he was on holiday in Barbados and saw kids playing with coconuts on the beach. He was an incredibly aggressive finisher with both feet, from short – and long range; and if he was occasionally iffy in the air, his overall record – 38 in 69 games – brooks no argument. Truly, there have been very few forwards in the game's history with such a complete range of skills. He came third in the Ballon d'Or in 1984, second in 1985 and fourth in 1986. He also won the Bronze Ball at Mexico 86, the only instance of a player knocked out in the last 16 winning this award. As you may have discerned from the length of this entry, he's something of a favourite


First thought for harms team was I quite didn't understand Forster getting dropped for Shesternyov, found the German a lot more natural in that side CB role as a marker/stopper with excellent credibility in similar assignments.
There are two reasons. One is named Andreas Brehme, the other is named Bernd Schuster.
 
I think Indnyc should have just lined up in a 4-2-3-1 with Charlton in the hole. Obviously that’s how it’ll play anyway, but I think the staggered Edwards / Keane combination doesn’t quite look right (particularly Keane’s role as he was never a pure anchor-man, he was actually a lot more than that).

That said, it’s a really brilliant team by Indnyc imo, tactically coherent and filled with some great partnerships. Against this opposition the Edwards pick works better than Scholes would imo and those flanks are absolutely outrageous.

Its an interesting tactical battle against a 3-5-2 as 2 vs 1 wing combinations can really be that systems downfall at times - and in terms of quality Nilton Santos / Giggs and Cafu / Georgie Best doesn’t get much better.

On the other hand, Maradona always takes some stopping and you’d need Roy Keane at his very best here to try and limit him.
 
Its an interesting tactical battle against a 3-5-2 as 2 vs 1 wing combinations can really be that systems downfall at times - and in terms of quality Nilton Santos / Giggs and Cafu / Georgie Best doesn’t get much better.
As does Brehme-Maldini with Davids and Figueroa in mind though.

Shesternyov is a great it for those particular opponents as well. Not only he has a history of facing Law, he is also one of the fastest defenders in history — he was a Moscow state 100 meter champion in his youth and ran 100 meters in 11 seconds at his peak, which will help with Giggs if (when) he'll beat Amoros.
 
Nationality limit @Theon @2mufc0
Ah fair enough, i'm just a bit disappointed as that back 3 in the last game is one of my favourite setups I've seen on here. Maybe could have shifted Amoros to LB and picked up a RB from elsewhere?
 
I think Indnyc should have just lined up in a 4-2-3-1 with Charlton in the hole. Obviously that’s how it’ll play anyway, but I think the staggered Edwards / Keane combination doesn’t quite look right (particularly Keane’s role as he was never a pure anchor-man, he was actually a lot more than that).

That said, it’s a really brilliant team by Indnyc imo, tactically coherent and filled with some great partnerships. Against this opposition the Edwards pick works better than Scholes would imo and those flanks are absolutely outrageous.

Its an interesting tactical battle against a 3-5-2 as 2 vs 1 wing combinations can really be that systems downfall at times - and in terms of quality Nilton Santos / Giggs and Cafu / Georgie Best doesn’t get much better.

On the other hand, Maradona always takes some stopping and you’d need Roy Keane at his very best here to try and limit him.

Thanks.. As you rightly said it will play out as a 4-2-3-1 most times

The reason I lined up Keane slightly behind was because some voters like to see a dedicated DM when you have Maradona as opposition
 
I can't see how Indnyc's system is limiting Maradona to be fair, a 4-2-3-1 with 2 defensively astute box-to-box midfielders is not enough to limit his influence (especially considering the support in Davids and Schuster). It will take more than superhuman Juventus performance from Keane to neutralise peak Maradona. I mean he beat the likes of Sacchi's Milan with Rijkaard, Baresi, Maldini and Costacurta pretty much by himself — and that's a much better defensive set up that Indnyc have here.



I don't even mention Blokhin and Elkjær — Maradona never played with better partners, both in quality and in terms of stylistic fit. Blokhin had 10 seasons of scoring 20+ goals, including a 1975, where he managed to won Ballon d'Or ahead of Beckenbauer and Cruyff (scoring 3 goals over 2 legs against Maier/Beckenbauer/Schwarzenbeck). Elkjær is better known around here, and his 3 years peak is pretty much amazing.


 
Ah fair enough, i'm just a bit disappointed as that back 3 in the last game is one of my favourite setups I've seen on here. Maybe could have shifted Amoros to LB and picked up a RB from elsewhere?
No, Brehme was always part of the original plan. The surprising results from the first round shifted my strategy a bit, but hopefully I'll have a chance of building the team that I want to :)
 
Good job by @Indnyc with this United theme, upgraded probably the weakest positions in United's history (full backs) but not sold on the centre back partnership. Tbh i think McGrath is over rated on here and due to lack of footage we can't really rate Nassazi fully.
 
Good luck @harms

I’ll comment on the game in a bit.. Have come out for some errands
 
As does Brehme-Maldini with Davids and Figueroa in mind though.

That’s the beauty of the Holy Trinity though, that Cafu / Best flank is just one third of it and world-class offensive threat comes from literally all areas of the pitch. Figuero can’t afford to help out with Best / Cafu as that leaves Law and Sir Bobby with free reign on Shesternyov which is obviously asking for trouble (to put it lightly).

I think mostly it has to be Brehme / Maldini, and whilst I agree with you on the quality of those two I think as a partnership Cafu / Best is too good to shut out for an entire match (or even the majority of it).
 
Think this would be a game too much for maradona, as the transition play of indnyc side is probably the best in the draft, it can attack pretty much every way a team can attack thanks to that midfield 3, which if you put all their best attributes together would probably create an undoubted GOAT midfielder
 

Something like that.


Care to elaborate? It's actually one of the weakest points of his team.


Thanks for the video.

Not sure if transition means the same to you, but it’s definitely not a weak part of the team. There’s ball winners, hard workers, width, great passers and almost unlimited stamina on the wings. Soon as his team win the ball back, there are so many different options available to hurt you and I just don’t see your side doing anything other than playing through maradona (obviously not a bad thing)
 
Midfield and attack comprised of United legends + two of the best Brazilian fullbacks. This Indnyc side is irresistible really. An upgrade at CB and it's perfect.

I'm curious about the Blokhin, Elkjaer, Maradona dynamic though. Will the other two work well with Maradona?
 
I just don’t see your side doing anything other than playing through maradona (obviously not a bad thing)
Yeah, because I don't have a players like Schuster:


Or Blokhin and Elkjær, who were used to single-handedly win games for their teams against the toughest of oppositions (I also put a goal against Beckenbauer's Bayern in the previous post). Or Brehme, who was equally good at crossing and playmaking from that left side.

What's funny is that you complained about your defence not getting enough credit in the last game, and yet you vote against a side with Yashin, Figueroa, Maldini and Brehme :)
 
Midfield and attack comprised of United legends + two of the best Brazilian fullbacks. This Indnyc side is irresistible really. An upgrade at CB and it's perfect.

I'm curious about the Blokhin, Elkjaer, Maradona dynamic though. Will the other two work well with Maradona?
I think I've provided enough info on them? There are hardly a more dynamic, selfless and yet immensely talented front two in the whole draft. They have the skill to do everything on their own (like Elkjær's most famous goal against Scirea's Juventus, or Blokhin's goal when he beat what, 6 Bayern's player on his way to the goal?), discipline and ability to peel out wide to give Maradona space or to finish the countless chances that he's going to create for them.



 
Yeah, because I don't have a players like Schuster:


Or Blokhin and Elkjær, who were used to single-handedly win games for their teams against the toughest of oppositions (I also put a goal against Beckenbauer's Bayern in the previous post). Or Brehme, who was equally good at crossing and playmaking from that left side.

What's funny is that you complained about your defence not getting enough credit in the last game, and yet you vote against a side with Yashin, Figueroa, Maldini and Brehme :)


I think your defence is up against an attack that most logical people would say works. The holy trinity + ryan Giggs.
 
@harms

From what I know and what I can see, your front two are both brilliant.

What would be the reasons they didn’t go to big clubs? I know it was less common back then, just wondering if there were any articles etc that touch on the subject.
 
Good job by @Indnyc with this United theme, upgraded probably the weakest positions in United's history (full backs) but not sold on the centre back partnership. Tbh i think McGrath is over rated on here and due to lack of footage we can't really rate Nassazi fully.

I would agree that my center backs are the weakest link in my team given the quality everywhere else. For the game itself though, i think they work well as a combination with 2 solid defensive midfielders in front to protect them well.
 
Good luck @Indnyc. As I said in the write up, it's pretty much impossible to criticise a team full of United legends, all of whom I rate extremely high. Still, when we compare our defensive units, I think that I'm better equipped to handle his attack that he is to deal with mine.

In Yashin, Figueroa, Maldini and Brehme I have the all-time standouts in their respective position. I have a feeling that only Figueroa from that very elite tier of center backs (Figueroa, Moore, Scirea) could've potentially rivalled Baresi for the top spot if there were more available footage of him. Not only he was voted South American Footballer of the Year 3 times, there are multiple reports of him being voted as best player in the World by FIFA in 1975 and 1976. Even with how it is, Figueroa is arguably the most complete center back of all-time, considering his elite aerial ability.

I love McGrath to bits, but his defensive unit is still not quite up to my ridiculous standard. The additional point would be that he doesn't have an elite passer from the back, even though he has a few competent ones — and with Blokhin and Elkjær up front it can be costly. I mean Blokhin managed to create problems even for Beckenbauer, by definition the most press-resistant defender in history, on multiple occasions, with his constant running and pressing. Same is true for Elkjær — a perpetual motion machine and one of the best possible fits for Maradona

I would say McGrath is a pretty good passer to be fair and i don't need someone to dictate the play from the back.. Essentially my strategy is to stretch the pitch as much as possible and go wide.. Keane and Edwards can do a great job in ensuring that we build from the back.

The midfield battle between Edwards/Keane/Charlton vs. Davids/Schuster/Maradona imo is what would define the match
 
@harms

From what I know and what I can see, your front two are both brilliant.

What would be the reasons they didn’t go to big clubs? I know it was less common back then, just wondering if there were any articles etc that touch on the subject.
Blokhin didn't go to a big club (although he won 2 European trophies with Dynamo and regularly got to the last stages of European Cup) because no Soviet player was allowed to at the moment. Especially the best Soviet player.

Elkjær's peak was relatively short — I'd say from 1982 to 1986. He signed for Verona and won them Scudetto (their first and only) against the Juventus side that included Platini, Scirea, Boniek, Tardelli, Cabrini and Rossi. It was the time when the World's best players were equally spread throughout the league — Zico, Souness, Falcao, Socrates, Junior, Passarella, Rummenigge, because of the foreign limit; and yet he won Verona the title.

He was 3rd in 1984, 2nd in 1985 and 4th in 1986 in Ballon d'Or votes, and won 1986 World Cup's Bronze Ball despite his team crashing out from the first play off round.
 
I would say McGrath is a pretty good passer to be fair and i don't need someone to dictate the play from the back.. Essentially my strategy is to stretch the pitch as much as possible and go wide.. Keane and Edwards can do a great job in ensuring that we build from the back.
As I've said, Blokhin made Beckenbauer uncomfortable (especially in their European Cup game in 1976/77, where Dynamo pressed Bayern out of the pitch) and Elkjær did the same for lots of defenders, including Scirea. They either used the good old hoof the ball tactic or had to risk losing the ball near their own penalty area. McGrath was pretty comfortable on the ball, but he wasn't even close to their level.
 
As I've said, Blokhin made Beckenbauer uncomfortable (especially in their European Cup game in 1976/77, where Dynamo pressed Bayern out of the pitch) and Elkjær did the same for lots of defenders, including Scirea. They either used the good old hoof the ball tactic or had to risk losing the ball near their own penalty area. McGrath was pretty comfortable on the ball, but he wasn't even close to their level.
I don't need to play from the back through my center backs though.. Neither McGrath nor Nasazzi have the same style as Beckenbauer to attempt bringing the ball out from defense.. Short passes to Keane/Edwards who can then push it wide to Santos/Cafu/Giggs/Charlton/Best
 
I don't need to play from the back through my center backs though.. Neither McGrath nor Nasazzi have the same style as Beckenbauer to attempt bringing the ball out from defense.. Short passes to Keane/Edwards who can then push it wide to Santos/Cafu/Giggs/Charlton/Best
It's not that easy to make that short pass though. I think we're all watching the same game at the moment that illustrates this point perfectly.

I've already commented on Blokhin and Elkjær, but Maradona was also a consistent threat with his attitude and engine, constantly catching opposing defenders with his movements:
 
Both brilliant sides and really hard to differentiate between the two.

For indy's side, I dont like nasazzi and ditto with shersternov for harms.
 
It's not that easy to make that short pass though. I think we're all watching the same game at the moment that illustrates this point perfectly.

I've already commented on Blokhin and Elkjær, but Maradona was also a consistent threat with his attitude and engine, constantly catching opposing defenders with his movements:


Right but the same can be said about Keane, Edwards and Charlton.. And i would think Charlton would offer more in a defensive phase than Maradona

 
Both brilliant sides and really hard to differentiate between the two.

For indy's side, I dont like nasazzi and ditto with shersternov for harms.
I can understand your scepticism regarding Shesternyov, but I don't think you can argue with the fact that he has a much better cover comparing to Nasazzi. Not to mention a clean record against Law (it's only one game, but he was absolutely immense in it and didn't allow Law & co, that just beat England 3:2 at Wembley and were in top form, anything).

His pace is also a nice option, considering Giggs on his side.