But again, you are talking purely about money and not player quality. If Sunderland go and spend £20m on mid-table La Liga player they don't become great players all of a sudden, they are still the same players that you'd have dismissed before the transfer as too inexpensive to actually be any good. The difference in quality between English youth and Spanish youth probably means that Premier League teams HAVE to spend hundreds of millions to be on a level playing field. I Jack Rodwell costs £15m.
The relative strength of the Premier League
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But again, you are talking purely about money and not player quality. If Sunderland go and spend £20m on mid-table La Liga player they don't become great players all of a sudden, they are still the same players that you'd have dismissed before the transfer as too inexpensive to actually be any good. The difference in quality between English youth and Spanish youth probably means that Premier League teams HAVE to spend hundreds of millions to be on a level playing field. I Jack Rodwell costs £15m.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Of the players in the Bundesliga who scored 10+ goals in the league last year. Six of them have links to the Premier League. Robben and De Bruyne have shone in both leagues.
Di Santo really struggled at Wigan for a while Okazaki and Son moved to England where they have struggled. Other players from the previous two years to move to the Premier League having scored +10 goals include Firminho, Mame Diouf, Joselu and Schurrle.
Former premier league players who have achieved this fear are Soloman Kalou and Hernandez.
To me that shows that the quality of the player going to England is less than the ones going to Germany. Add in other players like Schwienstiger, Baba at Chelsea and Kagawa here not doing anywhere near as well as they did in Germany and players like Didjolobji, Thorgan Hazard and Lewis Holtby have gone the other way and look vastly superior in the German league.
Even "Flop" Shaqiri has gotten double his current goals for the season in Germany.
Is there any players who don't fit my "did OK in England, vastly improved in Germany" or "great in Germany significantly less great in the Premier League" argument?
Di Santo really struggled at Wigan for a while Okazaki and Son moved to England where they have struggled. Other players from the previous two years to move to the Premier League having scored +10 goals include Firminho, Mame Diouf, Joselu and Schurrle.
Former premier league players who have achieved this fear are Soloman Kalou and Hernandez.
To me that shows that the quality of the player going to England is less than the ones going to Germany. Add in other players like Schwienstiger, Baba at Chelsea and Kagawa here not doing anywhere near as well as they did in Germany and players like Didjolobji, Thorgan Hazard and Lewis Holtby have gone the other way and look vastly superior in the German league.
Even "Flop" Shaqiri has gotten double his current goals for the season in Germany.
Is there any players who don't fit my "did OK in England, vastly improved in Germany" or "great in Germany significantly less great in the Premier League" argument?
Of the players in the Bundesliga who scored 10+ goals in the league last year. Six of them have links to the Premier League. Robben and De Bruyne have shone in both leagues.
Di Santo really struggled at Wigan for a while Okazaki and Son moved to England where they have struggled. Other players from the previous two years to move to the Premier League having scored +10 goals include Firminho, Mame Diouf, Joselu and Schurrle.
Former premier league players who have achieved this fear are Soloman Kalou and Hernandez.
To me that shows that the quality of the player going to England is less than the ones going to Germany. Add in other players like Schwienstiger, Baba at Chelsea and Kagawa here not doing anywhere near as well as they did in Germany and players like Didjolobji, Thorgan Hazard and Lewis Holtby have gone the other way and look vastly superior in the German league.
Even "Flop" Shaqiri has gotten double his current goals for the season in Germany.
Is there any players who don't fit my "did OK in England, vastly improved in Germany" or "great in Germany significantly less great in the Premier League" argument?
Don't go there because a lot of the french players who have lately been successful in England improved their numbers in England, stats means nothing.
Is there any players who don't fit my "did OK in England, vastly improved in Germany" or "great in Germany significantly less great in the Premier League" argument?
Arnautovic for example. Shit for a team that was fighting relegation in BUndesliga, very good in England for a team that gets mentioned by you as an example of a strong team in England.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Arnautovic for example. Shit for a team that was fighting relegation in BUndesliga, very good in England for a team that gets mentioned by you as an example of a strong team in England.
Yeah that's true. He has scored the exact same amount of goals for Stoke as he did at Bremen though (and he's played more for Stoke) so has his level really changed that much?
Nanook
Full Member
But again, you are talking purely about money and not player quality. If Sunderland go and spend £20m on mid-table La Liga player they don't become great players all of a sudden, they are still the same players that you'd have dismissed before the transfer as too inexpensive to actually be any good. The difference in quality between English youth and Spanish youth probably means that Premier League teams HAVE to spend hundreds of millions to be on a level playing field. I Jack Rodwell costs £15m.
There's a very strong link between money and player quality, of course teams get big transfers wrong and players like Mahrez can be bought for nothing but in general the more you spend the better you're likely to be.
I'm not sure Spanish players in La Liga are much better than English players, the best 25/30 obviously are but almost all of them play for 3 clubs in Spain. All the best British players besides Bale play in the PL, there's loads of great Spanish players outside of La Liga, also there's fewer domestic players in the PL so the quality is more concentrated.
Arnautovic, Wollscheid at Stoke, Fuchs at Leicester for example.Is there any players who don't fit my "did OK in England, vastly improved in Germany" or "great in Germany significantly less great in the Premier League" argument?
It's always difficult to fairly judge the quality of a player after moving to a different league/country or making a step up to a bigger club. There are so many factors playing a role in it, that might not have anything to do with the individual abilitiy/quality of the player. It's not like players that move up to a bigger club within the Premier League are more likely to be a success either, many struggle as well and that's without the problems that come with the needs to learn a new language and adapt to a different culture.
You're also massively exaggerating some examples, when you talk about 'vastly improved in Germany'. Players are at times played in different roles and therefore have different stats, which doesn't reflect the actual quality of their performances. Son was mostly a 2nd striker/inside forward in the Bundesliga and his managers set up tactics to get him into goalscoring positions. That's completely different to his role at Tottenham from what I've seen of their games.
Well, he has scored this season more goals (and played better) than in any season for Bremen. I don't think it says more about the quality of the leagues, but it says more about his improvement during the years.Yeah that's true. He has scored the exact same amount of goals for Stoke as he did at Bremen though (and he's played more for Stoke) so has his level really changed that much?
It is always a terrible argument to compare the strength of the leagues based on a few transfers. But if you want to do it, is okay. Eredivisie >> Premier League because Suarez, Nistelrooy and Bojan did better in EPL than there. And of course, Championship is better than EPL, otherwise James Vardy wouldn't have been this good in EPL compared to Championship.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Arnautovic, Wollscheid at Stoke, Fuchs at Leicester for example.
It's always difficult to fairly judge the quality of a player after moving to a different league/country or making a step up to a bigger club. There are so many factors playing a role in it, that might not have anything to do with the individual abilitiy/quality of the player. It's not like players that move up to a bigger club within the Premier League are more likely to be a success either, many struggle as well and that's without the problems that come with the needs to learn a new language and adapt to a different culture.
You're also massively exaggerating some examples, when you talk about 'vastly improved in Germany'. Players are at times played in different roles and therefore have different stats, which doesn't reflect the actual quality of their performances. Son was mostly a 2nd striker/inside forward in the Bundesliga and his managers set up tactics to get him into goalscoring positions. That's completely different to his role at Tottenham from what I've seen of their games.
True, you're absolutely not wrong that some players may change positions and roles in the team.
However, I think that when looking at attackers specifically it's fair enough to say that the vast majority of players have performed significantly better in the Bundesliga than the Premier League. And this is sustained with about 10 players.
Di Santo,
Mame Diouf,
Kalou,
Chicarito,
Son,
Okazaki,
Joselu,
Claudio Pizzario
Firminho
Players like Arnoutovic are now mentioned as a way of showing that players can improve the other way around, but he played in the CL while in Germany and scored the same amount of goals in about 15 less games. So his stats show him as becoming poorer in the Prem.
Even a player like Wollschield hasn't looked great at Stoke.
I'm not sure Spanish players in La Liga are much better than English players, the best 25/30 obviously are but almost all of them play for 3 clubs in Spain. All the best British players besides Bale play in the PL, there's loads of great Spanish players outside of La Liga, also there's fewer domestic players in the PL so the quality is more concentrated.
I'm sure they are. You can find lots of good Spanish players who plays for the lesser teams in Spain while in the PL, there's not many good English players who doesn't play for the usual top 8 clubs. A problem here is also that there's actually not that many English player playing generally, because English players generally aren't good enough. In mid week only 64 of the 220 players who started PL matches were English, that's only 29% of the players. At Old Trafford only Rashford, Deeney and Watson started, the remaining 19 players who started was foreign.
A lot of people might have asked this, but are you on WUM?True, you're absolutely not wrong that some players may change positions and roles in the team.
However, I think that when looking at attackers specifically it's fair enough to say that the vast majority of players have performed significantly better in the Bundesliga than the Premier League. And this is sustained with about 10 players.
Di Santo,
Mame Diouf,
Kalou,
Chicarito,
Son,
Okazaki,
Joselu,
Claudio Pizzario
Firminho
Players like Arnoutovic are now mentioned as a way of showing that players can improve the other way around, but he played in the CL while in Germany and scored the same amount of goals in about 15 less games. So his stats show him as becoming poorer in the Prem.
Even a player like Wollschield hasn't looked great at Stoke.
Classical Mechanic
Full Member
The PL will be accepted widely as superior to the BL within two years IMO. The Spanish League, well that is a different matter.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Well, he has scored this season more goals (and played better) than in any season for Bremen. I don't think it says more about the quality of the leagues, but it says more about his improvement during the years.
It is always a terrible argument to compare the strength of the leagues based on a few transfers. But if you want to do it, is okay. Eredivisie >> Premier League because Suarez, Nistelrooy and Bojan did better in EPL than there. And of course, Championship is better than EPL, otherwise James Vardy wouldn't have been this good in EPL compared to Championship.
What I'm saying is that with the Eredivisie and Championship there are numerous players who have arrived and fluctuated in numbers over time. There's a vast difference in those two leagues, so playerslike Suarez and Van Nistelrooy may improve in the prem when they arrive as they are playing at a higher level. Similarly players like Kuyt and Alves score a lot less because they can't make the step up.
I'd say out of recent transfers between Bundesliga and Prem about 90% of the players were seen as doing better in the Bundesliga. Some would be because of age and improvement, but I think looking at the recent transfers as I've done, that's a fair hypothesis to make.
Sammyjunn
New Member
This discussion is so agenda driven, you just pick the stats that suit your agenda and ignore those that dont.
I'm going to give the answer, the PL and La Liga are almost as strong but the best spanish teams are better. The football is different so extrapolated stats are useless, the money spent is irrelevant because they don't live in the same market.
True, you're absolutely not wrong that some players may change positions and roles in the team.
However, I think that when looking at attackers specifically it's fair enough to say that the vast majority of players have performed significantly better in the Bundesliga than the Premier League. And this is sustained with about 10 players.
Di Santo,
Mame Diouf,
Kalou,
Chicarito,
Son,
Okazaki,
Joselu,
Claudio Pizzario
Firminho
Players like Arnoutovic are now mentioned as a way of showing that players can improve the other way around, but he played in the CL while in Germany and scored the same amount of goals in about 15 less games. So his stats show him as becoming poorer in the Prem.
Even a player like Wollschield hasn't looked great at Stoke.
Claudio feckin Pizarro, seriously? A player who moved to Chelsea for a sub role at like 34?
As for Arnautovic argument well, Kalou played in CL and scored goals in Premier League, he is only playing for a mid-table team in Germany. Clearly shows he has become poorer outside PL. Diouf played for a title winning team in PL and only managed to play for mid-table team in Bundesliga. Okazaki played for a weak German team and now he's competing for the title in England. Quite clearly when you move from Bundesliga to PL you go to a higher placed team than you'd get to play in Germany.
Massive Spanner
The Football Wrench
You can't tell me to not be stupid and then make these claims based on something your friend said.Would they win it? Probably.
Would they do it the exact same way? Don't be stupid. I have a friend, an American who has never followed football until last year. He spent all last year watching German, Spanish and English football deciding which team he would support. He eventually fell on Arsenal (I KNOW LOL). His observations on the top leagues are as follows.
The Premier League is a harder league to win, not because the teams are better, but because the teams play not to lose, they don't play to win. He also believes that from his observations, that PL league teams build around this premise, play not to lose, and as such care less about technical players and more about athletes who can play fast direct football so that they can excel in the park the bus and hit on the counter style that just about every team in the PL outside the top few teams play. They don't play like that in Germany, and they don't play like that in Spain. In both Germany and Spain they play very open positive football, even the relegation battling teams tend to play that way.
This allows teams like Barcelona and Real Madrid and Bayern play much easier matches on average. They are not playing teams built around athleticism to defend and hit on the counter week in and week out, which is what the Prem has turned into in the last 5 years or so.
I think it is quite likely that it will happen, but until then we have to accept that the leagues are of similar quality, while their best team there is miles better than any club in England.The PL will be accepted widely as superior to the BL within two years IMO. The Spanish League, well that is a different matter.
La Liga is a different beast altogether. It is way ahead of EPL in pretty much any aspect but the money spent.
Kostur
海尔的老板
Right, it's Sunday morning, I suppose that it is the high time we consider the strength of Ekstraklasa SA which is, as everybody knows, Polish premier league.
6 years ago Lech Poznań (who's currently and comfortably 6th in the league) played Manchester City (who's comfortably 4th in EPL) and Juventus (who's comfortably 1st in Serie A) in Europa League. I would like to highlight two matches taht were very, very important.
First one is 3-3 match against Juventus away. Juventus squad:
Juventus: Alexander Manninger - Zdenek Grygera, Nicola Legrottaglie, Giorgo Chiellini, Paolo De Ceglie (45. Marco Motta) - Davide Lanzafame (55. Simone Pepe), Mohammed Sissoko, Felipe Melo, Milos Krasić - Alessandro Del Piero, Vincenzo Iaquinta (78. Claudio Marchisio)
Lech: Krzysztof Kotorowski - Grzegorz Wojtkowiak, Ivan Djurdjević, Manuel Arboleda, Luis Henriquez - Marcin Kikut (81. Jakub Wilk), Sergei Krivets, Dimitrije Injac, Sławomir Peszko (73. Artur Wichniarek)- Semir Stilic (80. Joel Tshibamba) - Artjoms Rudnevs
So Lech Poznań got a point in Europa League (which later then let them advance to the next round at expense of the Italians) in away match against current champions of Serie A. At home, they drew 1-1 against them. I think it is fair to say that players like Peszko, Wojtkowiak or Djurdjević would tear it up in Serie A. Now, we have to take into consideration that Juventus was last year's CL finalist, this year they beat City in CL over two legs so it's fair to say that Lech Poznań (6th in the league!!!) is comfortably better than Manchester City (4th in the league).
What is more, the same season Lech Poznań beat 3-1 Manchester City at home. Away game is irrelevant, I think we should look at the squads:
City: S. Given - P. Zabaleta, M. Richards, D. Boyata, J. Lescott - A. Johnson P. Vieira, W. Bridge (70. Kolarov), S. Wright-Phillips (45. D. Silva) - J. Milner (77. Kompany), E. Adebayor
Lech: J. Buric - M. Kikut, B. Bosacki, M. Arboleda, L. Henriquez - S. Peszko (73. Wilk), D. Injac (57. Kiełb), I. Djurdjevic, S. Krivets - S. Stilic (62. Możdżeń) - A. Rudnevs.
Now, take a look at that. You've got Patrick Vieira who's touted as 'the best midfielder in EPL history' by many, Kolarov, Richards, Zabaleta, Boyata, David Silva (probably the best #10 in the world???) who are still playing for Manchester City. SWP is Manchester City's legend, Lescott, Milner, Adebayor, Given are still playing in the EPL with success and then there's Wayne Bridge and Adam 'u16' Johnson who are both gentlemen of questionable character. They've all been absolutely destroyed by Lech Poznań who're 6th (sixth) in Polish Ekstraklasa. Lech Poznań advanced from this group with the same amount of points as Manchester City by the way.
I'd say that those two games prove easily that Polish Ekstraklasa is as strong if not stronger than EPL. Teams like United, City or Arsenal wouldn't catch a breath in Polish Ekstraklasa because we don't play just two rounds of games, no, we play three rounds of games. After two rounds the league is split in two and you have to play everybody in your group once more. Crazy, isn't it? I seriously can't see United or Arsenal managing to rotate enough given the injury crises there.
Now, I'm being incredibly gentle by not quoting the famous 2-2 between Barcelona and Lechia Gdanśk (Barcelona - best team in the world, CL, La Liga winners who absolutely trashed Arsenal as of late) where Messi, Neymar and Sanchez (who's tearing it up in the EPL and was incredibly ineffective against, e.g., Jarosław Bieniuk) all featured, so it wasn't just a shitty game that you witness sometimes in EPL. This would embarrass EPL even further.
I hope you gentlemen have a fine day and please keep in mind that you've all been proven that Ekstraklasa > 'English' (Welsh teams play there) Premier League.
PS. Oh, and in Poland we play with 11 players, not 12 like in Spain or Germany as suggested by Twigginater so you guys just know that it's a lot harder in here as well.
6 years ago Lech Poznań (who's currently and comfortably 6th in the league) played Manchester City (who's comfortably 4th in EPL) and Juventus (who's comfortably 1st in Serie A) in Europa League. I would like to highlight two matches taht were very, very important.
First one is 3-3 match against Juventus away. Juventus squad:
Juventus: Alexander Manninger - Zdenek Grygera, Nicola Legrottaglie, Giorgo Chiellini, Paolo De Ceglie (45. Marco Motta) - Davide Lanzafame (55. Simone Pepe), Mohammed Sissoko, Felipe Melo, Milos Krasić - Alessandro Del Piero, Vincenzo Iaquinta (78. Claudio Marchisio)
Lech: Krzysztof Kotorowski - Grzegorz Wojtkowiak, Ivan Djurdjević, Manuel Arboleda, Luis Henriquez - Marcin Kikut (81. Jakub Wilk), Sergei Krivets, Dimitrije Injac, Sławomir Peszko (73. Artur Wichniarek)- Semir Stilic (80. Joel Tshibamba) - Artjoms Rudnevs
So Lech Poznań got a point in Europa League (which later then let them advance to the next round at expense of the Italians) in away match against current champions of Serie A. At home, they drew 1-1 against them. I think it is fair to say that players like Peszko, Wojtkowiak or Djurdjević would tear it up in Serie A. Now, we have to take into consideration that Juventus was last year's CL finalist, this year they beat City in CL over two legs so it's fair to say that Lech Poznań (6th in the league!!!) is comfortably better than Manchester City (4th in the league).
What is more, the same season Lech Poznań beat 3-1 Manchester City at home. Away game is irrelevant, I think we should look at the squads:
City: S. Given - P. Zabaleta, M. Richards, D. Boyata, J. Lescott - A. Johnson P. Vieira, W. Bridge (70. Kolarov), S. Wright-Phillips (45. D. Silva) - J. Milner (77. Kompany), E. Adebayor
Lech: J. Buric - M. Kikut, B. Bosacki, M. Arboleda, L. Henriquez - S. Peszko (73. Wilk), D. Injac (57. Kiełb), I. Djurdjevic, S. Krivets - S. Stilic (62. Możdżeń) - A. Rudnevs.
Now, take a look at that. You've got Patrick Vieira who's touted as 'the best midfielder in EPL history' by many, Kolarov, Richards, Zabaleta, Boyata, David Silva (probably the best #10 in the world???) who are still playing for Manchester City. SWP is Manchester City's legend, Lescott, Milner, Adebayor, Given are still playing in the EPL with success and then there's Wayne Bridge and Adam 'u16' Johnson who are both gentlemen of questionable character. They've all been absolutely destroyed by Lech Poznań who're 6th (sixth) in Polish Ekstraklasa. Lech Poznań advanced from this group with the same amount of points as Manchester City by the way.
I'd say that those two games prove easily that Polish Ekstraklasa is as strong if not stronger than EPL. Teams like United, City or Arsenal wouldn't catch a breath in Polish Ekstraklasa because we don't play just two rounds of games, no, we play three rounds of games. After two rounds the league is split in two and you have to play everybody in your group once more. Crazy, isn't it? I seriously can't see United or Arsenal managing to rotate enough given the injury crises there.
Now, I'm being incredibly gentle by not quoting the famous 2-2 between Barcelona and Lechia Gdanśk (Barcelona - best team in the world, CL, La Liga winners who absolutely trashed Arsenal as of late) where Messi, Neymar and Sanchez (who's tearing it up in the EPL and was incredibly ineffective against, e.g., Jarosław Bieniuk) all featured, so it wasn't just a shitty game that you witness sometimes in EPL. This would embarrass EPL even further.
I hope you gentlemen have a fine day and please keep in mind that you've all been proven that Ekstraklasa > 'English' (Welsh teams play there) Premier League.
PS. Oh, and in Poland we play with 11 players, not 12 like in Spain or Germany as suggested by Twigginater so you guys just know that it's a lot harder in here as well.
That's a weird list though. I mean, Joselu was an average forward in the Bundesliga, overall scored 22 goals in 79 games and played last season for a team that finished 2 points above relagion. He was rated by kicker magazine as the worst player of all of Hannover's regular starters last season. Why would you even believe he played well in the Bundesliga?However, I think that when looking at attackers specifically it's fair enough to say that the vast majority of players have performed significantly better in the Bundesliga than the Premier League. And this is sustained with about 10 players.
Di Santo,
Mame Diouf,
Kalou,
Chicarito,
Son,
Okazaki,
Joselu,
Claudio Pizzario
Firminho
Di Santo has been truely awful at Schalke this season and rarely gets to play, not a single start for him so far in 2016 and only 2 goals in 22 games. He hit a purple patch for half a season at Bremen in a team fighting relegation in the Bundesliga, but has overall so far hardly been impressive in any way.
Kalou has been a valuable role player for an elite team in the Premier League for 6 years and now has done well in a significantly smaller club in the Bundesliga. Hertha are playing a surprisingly great season, but similarly to how Vardy stepped it up for Leicester in the PL, Kalou has surprised this season for Hertha. And it's not like 18 goals in 49 Bundesliga games overall is some sort of sensational form for Kalou.
I've already told you that Chicharito's goal/minute ratio in the Bundesliga isn't much different to his form in 3 years under Fergie. He's clearly a talented goalscorer, who's now for the first time used as a regular starter in a club below the elite. He'd score as many playing for Tottenham or Arsenal as a regular starter as well, just like he scored on a similar rate when he was allowed to start at United. You're just ignoring the reality and cherrypick things without looking at the greater picture.
Firmino struggled for a few months but right now is playing on the same level he played at Hoffenheim. Again, such a weird comparison. He had 38 goals in 140 Bundesliga games, a goal every 288 minutes. He already has 7 in 24 for Liverpool, a goal every 212 minutes, so his stats have actually already improved on his overall time in the Bundesliga.
I give you Pizarro, but then, he was arguably already past his peak at 29/30 when he moved and clearly an excellent striker for most of his career. He just happened to struggle in his one year stint at Chelsea as a sub player. Shit happens. There can be so many reasons for a player struggling in his first year in a different country and not feeling comfortable in that environment for personal reasons might be the biggest factor in it.
I talked about Son before.
The other names on that list were all rather unimportant players, who moved between midtable/bottom half clubs with different results, some did slightly better, some worse, whatever. Their performance level varied between their Bundesliga seasons as much as it did compared to seasons in other leagues.
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Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Right, it's Sunday morning, I suppose that it is the high time we consider the strength of Ekstraklasa SA which is, as everybody knows, Polish premier league.
6 years ago Lech Poznań (who's currently and comfortably 6th in the league) played Manchester City (who's comfortably 4th in EPL) and Juventus (who's comfortably 1st in Serie A) in Europa League. I would like to highlight two matches taht were very, very important.
First one is 3-3 match against Juventus away. Juventus squad:
Juventus: Alexander Manninger - Zdenek Grygera, Nicola Legrottaglie, Giorgo Chiellini, Paolo De Ceglie (45. Marco Motta) - Davide Lanzafame (55. Simone Pepe), Mohammed Sissoko, Felipe Melo, Milos Krasić - Alessandro Del Piero, Vincenzo Iaquinta (78. Claudio Marchisio)
Lech: Krzysztof Kotorowski - Grzegorz Wojtkowiak, Ivan Djurdjević, Manuel Arboleda, Luis Henriquez - Marcin Kikut (81. Jakub Wilk), Sergei Krivets, Dimitrije Injac, Sławomir Peszko (73. Artur Wichniarek)- Semir Stilic (80. Joel Tshibamba) - Artjoms Rudnevs
So Lech Poznań got a point in Europa League (which later then let them advance to the next round at expense of the Italians) in away match against current champions of Serie A. At home, they drew 1-1 against them. I think it is fair to say that players like Peszko, Wojtkowiak or Djurdjević would tear it up in Serie A. Now, we have to take into consideration that Juventus was last year's CL finalist, this year they beat City in CL over two legs so it's fair to say that Lech Poznań (6th in the league!!!) is comfortably better than Manchester City (4th in the league).
What is more, the same season Lech Poznań beat 3-1 Manchester City at home. Away game is irrelevant, I think we should look at the squads:
City: S. Given - P. Zabaleta, M. Richards, D. Boyata, J. Lescott - A. Johnson P. Vieira, W. Bridge (70. Kolarov), S. Wright-Phillips (45. D. Silva) - J. Milner (77. Kompany), E. Adebayor
Lech: J. Buric - M. Kikut, B. Bosacki, M. Arboleda, L. Henriquez - S. Peszko (73. Wilk), D. Injac (57. Kiełb), I. Djurdjevic, S. Krivets - S. Stilic (62. Możdżeń) - A. Rudnevs.
Now, take a look at that. You've got Patrick Vieira who's touted as 'the best midfielder in EPL history' by many, Kolarov, Richards, Zabaleta, Boyata, David Silva (probably the best #10 in the world???) who are still playing for Manchester City. SWP is Manchester City's legend, Lescott, Milner, Adebayor, Given are still playing in the EPL with success and then there's Wayne Bridge and Adam 'u16' Johnson who are both gentlemen of questionable character. They've all been absolutely destroyed by Lech Poznań who're 6th (sixth) in Polish Ekstraklasa. Lech Poznań advanced from this group with the same amount of points as Manchester City by the way.
I'd say that those two games prove easily that Polish Ekstraklasa is as strong if not stronger than EPL. Teams like United, City or Arsenal wouldn't catch a breath in Polish Ekstraklasa because we don't play just two rounds of games, no, we play three rounds of games. After two rounds the league is split in two and you have to play everybody in your group once more. Crazy, isn't it? I seriously can't see United or Arsenal managing to rotate enough given the injury crises there.
Now, I'm being incredibly gentle by not quoting the famous 2-2 between Barcelona and Lechia Gdanśk (Barcelona - best team in the world, CL, La Liga winners who absolutely trashed Arsenal as of late) where Messi, Neymar and Sanchez (who's tearing it up in the EPL and was incredibly ineffective against, e.g., Jarosław Bieniuk) all featured, so it wasn't just a shitty game that you witness sometimes in EPL. This would embarrass EPL even further.
I hope you gentlemen have a fine day and please keep in mind that you've all been proven that Ekstraklasa > 'English' (Welsh teams play there) Premier League.
Right thanks for this. I think it puts for bed once and for all the notion that performance in European leagues is a significant way to measure competence of a league. Freak results like this happen and it seems obvious this doesn't correlate to actual quality. Good post.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Claudio feckin Pizarro, seriously? A player who moved to Chelsea for a sub role at like 34?
As for Arnautovic argument well, Kalou played in CL and scored goals in Premier League, he is only playing for a mid-table team in Germany. Clearly shows he has become poorer outside PL. Diouf played for a title winning team in PL and only managed to play for mid-table team in Bundesliga. Okazaki played for a weak German team and now he's competing for the title in England. Quite clearly when you move from Bundesliga to PL you go to a higher placed team than you'd get to play in Germany.
Pizarro moved to Chelsea aged 29, scored 2 in 21 league games and has recently at 37 scored 11 in 22 in the Bundesliga.
Kostur
海尔的老板
Right thanks for this. I think it puts for bed once and for all the notion that performance in European leagues is a significant way to measure competence of a league. Freak results like this happen and it seems obvious this doesn't correlate to actual quality. Good post.
Please don't quote my posts, Cina, can you delete Twigginater's reply?
That's a weird list though. I mean, Joselu was an average forward in the Bundesliga, overall scored 22 goals in 79 games and played last season for a team that finished 2 points above relagion. He was rated by kicker magazine as the worst player of all of Hannover's regular starters last season. Why would you even believe he played well in the Bundesliga?
.
Why would he not? He doesn't watch other leagues. He cannot know.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
That's a weird list though. I mean, Joselu was an average forward in the Bundesliga, overall scored 22 goals in 79 games and played last season for a team that finished 2 points above relagion. He was rated by kicker magazine as the worst player of all of Hannover's regular starters last season. Why would you even believe he played well in the Bundesliga?
Di Santo has been truely awful at Schalke this season and rarely gets to play, not a single start for him so far in 2016 and only 2 goals in 22 games. He hit a purple patch for half a season at Bremen in a team fighting relegation in the Bundesliga, but has overall so far hardly been impressive in any way.
Kalou has been a valuable role player for an elite team in the Premier League for 6 years and now has done well in a significantly smaller club in the Bundesliga. Hertha are playing a surprisingly great season, but similarly to how Vardy stepped it up for Leicester in the PL, Kalou has surprised this season for Hertha. And it's not like 18 goals in 49 Bundesliga games overall is some sort of sensational form for Kalou.
I've already told you that Chicharito's goal/minute ratio in the Bundesliga isn't much different to his form in 3 years under Fergie. He's clearly a talented goalscorer, who's now for the first time used as a regular starter in a club below the elite. He'd score as many playing for Tottenham or Arsenal as a regular starter as well, just like he scored on a similar rate when he was allowed to start at United. You're just ignoring the reality and cherrypick things without looking at the greater picture.
Firmino struggled for a few months but right now is playing on the same level he played at Hoffenheim. Again, such a weird comparison. He had 38 goals in 140 Bundesliga games, a goal every 288 minutes. He already has 7 in 24 for Liverpool, a goal every 212 minutes, so his stats have actually already improved on his overall time in the Bundesliga.
I give you Pizarro, but then, he was arguably already past his peak at 29/30 when he moved and clearly an excellent striker for most of his career. He just happened to struggle in his one year stint at Chelsea as a sub player. Shit happens. There can be so many reasons for a player struggling in his first year in a different country and not feeling comfortable in that environment for personal reasons might be the biggest factor in it.
The other names on that list were all rather unimportant players, who moved between midtable/bottom half clubs with different results, some did slightly better, some worse, whatever. They're performance level varied between their Bundesliga seasons as much as it did compared to seasons in other leagues.
Thanks for the reply Balu. I like that you've gone into detail.
Joselu admittedly wasn't seen as a great player for Hannover. I'm not saying he was. However he was obviously significantly more important at the two German clubs he played for than he has been at Stoke. At Stoke he's managed 3 goals, for German teams he got 10 and 14 the two seasons prior to this. As a relatively young player you would expect his goals to improve, but so far this hasn't happened. I think it's fair to say that his performance levels were higher in Bundesliga.
Di Santo went through a purple patch. Fair enough. It happens, players all over the world do well for a while and then disappear. However in over 100 games in the Premier League he scored 13 goals. He matched that last year in the Bundesliga in 25 games. Even if he is not a first team starter it shows that he was able to score easier in the Bundesliga.
Kalou played at Chelsea up until the age of 25. While he was there he was seen as a squad option and hit double figures for the league once (10 in 2010/11). He has then dropped down in quality of team and started scoring more frequently. He's scored more goals already this term than he ever did at Chelsea. Again his scoring record is significantly better in the Bundesliga.
For Firminio we're going to have to give it more time. Considering he had more goals and assists than most players in the Bundesliga and he's been on the bench for a significant period of time at Liverpool, we'll see over the long term.
Diouf, Son and Okazaki all moved clubs and have all scored much less goals in the Prem. I think that's quite significant.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Please don't quote my posts, Cina, can you delete Twigginater's reply?
Why would Cina delete my reply?
Even by his standards using Joselu is just weird. He came to Hoffenheim, but wasn't good enough and loaned out to Frankfurt. He struggled to start regularly at Frankfurt and was sold to Hannover. There he was one of their worst players, but still was sold for a new club record of 8m Euro into the Premier League. It's the perfect example for what's wrong with Premier League clubs. What a spectacular waste of money.Why would he not? He doesn't watch other leagues. He cannot know.
Massive Spanner
The Football Wrench
I'd delete your account if I could.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
I'd delete your account if I could.
You love me posting here Cina.
It's seriously disturbing if you think that discussing average players like these (mostly taken out of context and the gap of their performance level highly exaggerated) tells you anything about the strength of both leagues.Thanks for the reply Balu. I like that you've gone into detail.
Joselu admittedly wasn't seen as a great player for Hannover. I'm not saying he was. However he was obviously significantly more important at the two German clubs he played for than he has been at Stoke. At Stoke he's managed 3 goals, for German teams he got 10 and 14 the two seasons prior to this. As a relatively young player you would expect his goals to improve, but so far this hasn't happened. I think it's fair to say that his performance levels were higher in Bundesliga.
Di Santo went through a purple patch. Fair enough. It happens, players all over the world do well for a while and then disappear. However in over 100 games in the Premier League he scored 13 goals. He matched that last year in the Bundesliga in 25 games. Even if he is not a first team starter it shows that he was able to score easier in the Bundesliga.
Kalou played at Chelsea up until the age of 25. While he was there he was seen as a squad option and hit double figures for the league once (10 in 2010/11). He has then dropped down in quality of team and started scoring more frequently. He's scored more goals already this term than he ever did at Chelsea. Again his scoring record is significantly better in the Bundesliga.
For Firminio we're going to have to give it more time. Considering he had more goals and assists than most players in the Bundesliga and he's been on the bench for a significant period of time at Liverpool, we'll see over the long term.
Diouf, Son and Okazaki all moved clubs and have all scored much less goals in the Prem. I think that's quite significant.
Even by his standards using Joselu is just weird. He came to Hoffenheim, but wasn't good enough and loaned out to Frankfurt. He struggled to start regularly at Frankfurt and was sold to Hannover. There he was one of their worst players, but still was sold for a new club record of 8m Euro into the Premier League. It's the perfect example for what's wrong with Premier League clubs. What a spectacular waste of money.
Reading this thread made me realize something, Ayew and Joselu are both poor strikers but two english clubs paid a lot of money for them, why? Because they scored goals, I don't know Hannover but in the case of Lorient it's not surprising the entire team play for the striker which inflate the stats, the stats don't change the fact that Ayew is a poor player like Moukandjo is a poor player.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
It's seriously disturbing if you think that discussing average players like these (mostly taken out of context and the gap of their performance level highly exaggerated) tells you anything about the strength of both leagues.
Is it disturbing?
Is it really?
I just said out of the last ten or so strikers to move from Germany to England in the last few yesrs, the players have all scored significantly more goals in the Bundesliga. I think that's a fair point to make as now we have seen that is true when looking at
Di Santo
Diouf
Arnoutovic
Okazaki
Pizarro
Hernandez
Firminio
Kalou
Son
9 of the most recent striker transfer and all scored more goals in bundesliga. All of them. To me that is quite significant not disturbing
Yeah. Those are perfect example of incredibly poor scouting. In general, the myth that strikers will always score more goals once they move to bigger clubs is crazy. It's often the opposite, because teams defend deeper against the better sides and the forwards have to be better allround footballers. I remember how I argued that City was stupid to pay so much money in January for Bony and that it was crazy over the top and is one of the transfers that will hold them back, but most people disagreed because he was one of the most productive forwards in the league over the previous seasons for Swansea. I just doesn't work like that. In well drilled small teams, average forwards can do surprisingly well, because they get many chances to score on the counter in open space, which is so much easier.Reading this thread made me realize something, Ayew and Joselu are both poor strikers but two english clubs paid a lot of money for them, why? Because they scored goals, I don't know Hannover but in the case of Lorient it's not surprising the entire team play for the striker which inflate the stats, the stats don't change the fact that Ayew is a poor player like Moukandjo is a poor player.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
Yeah. Those are perfect example of incredibly poor scouting. In general, the myth that strikers will always score more goals once they move to bigger clubs is crazy. It's often the opposite, because teams defend deeper against the better sides and the forwards have to be better allround footballers. I remember how I argued that City was stupid to pay so much money in January for Bony and that it was crazy over the top and is one of the transfers that will hold them back, but most people disagreed because he was one of the most productive forwards in the league over the previous seasons for Swansea. I just doesn't work like that. In well drilled small teams, average forwards can do surprisingly well, because they get many chances to score on the counter in open space, which is so much easier.
Is it poor scouting? Stoke City are competing with teams in the Prem who can blow them out of the water. They spent a fraction of what they make on a player who had scored at a relatively good rate in Bundesliga and was still young. Stoke needed a striker this summer and had to think outside the box.
Is it disturbing?
Is it really?
I just said out of the last ten or so strikers to move from Germany to England in the last few yesrs, the players have all scored significantly more goals in the Bundesliga. I think that's a fair point to make as now we have seen that is true when looking at
Di Santo
Diouf
Arnoutovic
Okazaki
Pizarro
Hernandez
Firminio
Kalou
Son
9 of the most recent striker transfer and all scored more goals in bundesliga. All of them. To me that is quite significant not disturbing
If I recall correctly:
Okazaki was playing like a poacher for Mainz now he is a second striker for the best team in the league.
Hernandez has the same stats than he had with Fergie.
Firmino has better stats and just moved.
Son is playing on the wing instead of playing as a second striker.
Arnautovic was playing upfront with Werder, now he plays on the wings.
You make it sound as if for example Arnautovic played better in the Bundesliga than he does in the Premier League when the exact opposite is true. Arnautovic also never scored more than 6 goals in the Bundesliga, but is already on 9 this season in the Premier League. That's exactly how you argued in most of these cases against the Bundesliga.Is it disturbing?
Is it really?
I just said out of the last ten or so strikers to move from Germany to England in the last few yesrs, the players have all scored significantly more goals in the Bundesliga. I think that's a fair point to make as now we have seen that is true when looking at
Di Santo
Diouf
Arnoutovic
Okazaki
Pizarro
Hernandez
Firminio
Kalou
Son
9 of the most recent striker transfer and all scored more goals in bundesliga. All of them. To me that is quite significant not disturbing
It is disturbing, because you're not even interested in comparing the performance level and even your stats-based approach (taken completely out of context) is simply false for some of the names on that list.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
You make it sound as if for example Arnautovic played better in the Bundesliga than he does in the Premier League when the exact opposite is true. Arnautovic also never scored more than 6 goals in the Bundesliga, but is already on 9 this season in the Premier League. That's exactly how you argued in most of these cases against the Bundesliga.
It is disturbing, because you're not even interested in comparing the performance level and even your stats-based approach (taken completely out of context) is simply false for some of the names on that list.
I can't possibly begin to comment on the performance level as I don't watch enough of any of these teams to comment (I don't think many other people here do either). I've gone on just simple facts to prove (IMO) that it is easier to score goals in the Bundesliga.
Nanook
Full Member
I'm sure they are. You can find lots of good Spanish players who plays for the lesser teams in Spain while in the PL, there's not many good English players who doesn't play for the usual top 8 clubs. A problem here is also that there's actually not that many English player playing generally, because English players generally aren't good enough. In mid week only 64 of the 220 players who started PL matches were English, that's only 29% of the players. At Old Trafford only Rashford, Deeney and Watson started, the remaining 19 players who started was foreign.
English teams can afford to buy players from other countries, some teams in Spain, France, Germany and Italy don't have that option so are forced to play domestic players. Counting Welsh, N.Irish and Scottish players as foreign is a bit misleading too.
My point was because there's very few English players in the PL and because all of the good ones play in England, the average player is actually pretty good. Spain clearly has a greater talent pool overall but La Liga's loses many great domestic players to other leagues and there's more Spanish players in La Liga so that affects the average. Like I said Spain has a larger talent pool but I don't think it's so large that the average Spanish player in La Liga is much better than the average English player in the PL.
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I hope Premier League clubs continue to think outside the box like that. It's awesome for the rest of Europe, if English clubs continue to piss their financial advantage in the wind.Is it poor scouting? Stoke City are competing with teams in the Prem who can blow them out of the water. They spent a fraction of what they make on a player who had scored at a relatively good rate in Bundesliga and was still young. Stoke needed a striker this summer and had to think outside the box.
Wumminator
The Qatar Pounder
I hope Premier League clubs continue to think outside the box like that. It's awesome for the rest of Europe, if English clubs continue to piss their financial advantage in the wind.
It's awesome for the rest of Europe?
Are you going to deny now that the Bundesliga isn't worried about losing it's top talents? That seems pretty obvious to me.
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