The relative strength of the Premier League

[Kwabs]

I agree with the bulk of the post but think that the bolded doesn't make much sense. Are you saying that you can't feel national pride if you live in a country with a high level of migration? Loads that is good about the UK is due to migration, to the point where one of the things I'm most proud about the UK is that it probably has some of the best south Asian restaurants in Europe!

Creative as that analogy is, I'm not really sure it works (normal people coming to the UK to live and work, often with a view to gaining permanent residence/citizenship is not quite the same as what happens in football) but let's put that aside.

I said 'point of national pride' but it really goes beyond that. It is the whole thing about saying 'we are the best' and everyone else is rubbish (cf the thread on this very site about whether the other top leagues in Europe are closer in quality to the Championship than the Premier League - I know it is a ridiculous assertion, but the fact that the thread exists means that there are at least a minority of people who hold that view or similar). There is a difference between pride (basically saying 'we are worthy, we are good') and arrogance ('we are by far the best').

This is what leads the English media to say that the PL is the best when the PL clubs succeed in Europe and also that the PL is the best when PL clubs fail in Europe, like they did this year. Apparently because the PL is 'so strong' that teams from 'weaker' leagues have an advantage, as their domestic games are so easy.

My point was that, if you're going to have this supercilious mentality, then it doesn't really work if your best managers and players are foreigners. Because then you're taking the top people from other countries and then saying to those same countries 'we're better than you'.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

EPL teams play more games as well as more competitive games than in any other league. So by the time they get to Europe, the players are more knackered than teams in other leagues. European competition is not a great judge of the relative strengths of the leagues in my opinion.

The argument isn't wrong in theory, it just doesn't match reality.

Arsenal beat Palace 5-0, Forest 1-2, Liverpool 3-1, West Ham 0-6, and Burnley 0-5 in their own domestic competition, before going to Porto and losing 1-0.
Then they beat Newcastle 4-1, Sheffield 0-6, and Brentford 2-1 before winning 1-0 against Porto and classifying on penalties.
Then they drew to City 0-0, won against Luton 2-0 and against Brighton 0-3, before drawing to Bayern 2-2, losing to Villa 0-2, and losing to Bayern 1-0.
So that's one defeat and multiple big wins in a long stretch of domestic games, while only getting 1 win in 4 European games.
If the issue were exhaustion you'd expect Arsenal to get weaker results in both competitions, but that's not the case.

 

[Pickle85]

Creative as that analogy is, I'm not really sure it works (normal people coming to the UK to live and work, often with a view to gaining permanent residence/citizenship is not quite the same as what happens in football) but let's put that aside.

I said 'point of national pride' but it really goes beyond that. It is the whole thing about saying 'we are the best' and everyone else is rubbish (cf the thread on this very site about whether the other top leagues in Europe are closer in quality to the Championship than the Premier League - I know it is a ridiculous assertion, but the fact that the thread exists means that there are at least a minority of people who hold that view or similar). There is a difference between pride (basically saying 'we are worthy, we are good') and arrogance ('we are by far the best').

This is what leads the English media to say that the PL is the best when the PL clubs succeed in Europe and also that the PL is the best when PL clubs fail in Europe, like they did this year. Apparently because the PL is 'so strong' that teams from 'weaker' leagues have an advantage, as their domestic games are so easy.

My point was that, if you're going to have this supercilious mentality, then it doesn't really work if your best managers and players are foreigners. Because then you're taking the top people from other countries and then saying to those same countries 'we're better than you'.

But I don't think that's what's happening. People aren't saying the PL is better than other leagues BECAUSE it's British, so it doesn't really matter a damn whether it's comprised of primarily British players or not. The fact is that the league attracts many of the very best around and is one of the best in the world. The percentage of British players competing has absolutely no bearing on this. You're conflating a pride (or arrogance) around the PL being the best league in the world (not saying it is, but just what many say) with a perceived national pride (or arrogance), which doesn't make much sense.

 

[Pickle85]

No, when my team wins I'm happy, delighted, but not proud. I wasn't on the pitch myself. And I'm not from Munich. I'm from Hamburg and lived in Berlin for 10 years. The latter has a great food scene. But am I proud of it? No, I haven't contributed to it, apart from generously financing it.

Also, please don't get me wrong, I am not taking a shot at you. Perhaps the combination of being German and being proud was simply drummed out of me at school.

I think we're splitting hairs a little here. For you, pride is obviously tethered very closely to personal achievement whereas I feel that there is such a thing as a collective pride, of being a part of a larger whole that achieves something impressive, even if your own contribution is minimal or even non-existent.

 

[kaiser1]

EPL teams play more games as well as more competitive games than in any other league. So by the time they get to Europe, the players are more knackered than teams in other leagues. European competition is not a great judge of the relative strengths of the leagues in my opinion.

When they succeed it's because the tough league makes them battle tested compared to continental teams that have it easy all through the season

 

[Kwabs]

But I don't think that's what's happening. People aren't saying the PL is better than other leagues BECAUSE it's British, so it doesn't really matter a damn whether it's comprised of primarily British players or not. The fact is that the league attracts many of the very best around and is one of the best in the world. The percentage of British players competing has absolutely no bearing on this. You're conflating a pride (or arrogance) around the PL being the best league in the world (not saying it is, but just what many say) with a perceived national pride (or arrogance), which doesn't make much sense.

If you think that, explain why the English media routinely called the Premier League 'the best league in the world' or 'the most exciting league in the world' even before it was full of foreigners? And the first division before that?

 

[Pickle85]

If you think that, explain why the English media routinely called the Premier League 'the best league in the world' or 'the most exciting league in the world' even before it was full of foreigners? And the first division before that?

Because it's a product that it's in their best interests to market as such. During the early 90s I don't think you'd get many fans claiming that the prem was better than serie a with a straight face, for instance.

 

[Hammondo]

Clearly La Liga.

I think strongest league is a stupid idea. How do you compare? Best team Vs best team, top 4, top 10, all of them? What if a league has the best team, but weak 2-5, but strong rest of the league compared to others, what does that mean?

La liga certainty is not stronger. Yes RM beat city but clearly city are better, and most of la liga is poor, a lot poorer than pl teams.

These comparisons are always given using the 1 comparison that suits that argument, it's hollow.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I think strongest league is a stupid idea. How do you compare? Best team Vs best team, top 4, top 10, all of them? What if a league has the best team, but weak 2-5, but strong rest of the league compared to others, what does that mean?

La liga certainty is not stronger. Yes RM beat city but clearly city are better, and most of la liga is poor, a lot poorer than pl teams.

These comparisons are always given using the 1 comparison that suits that argument, it's hollow.

They are poorer I.e having less money, not worse.

The amount of CLs and ELs La Liga clubs have won over the last 15 years is a testament for that. It’s not like English clubs have covered themselves in glory in either. The PL is a better product but the idea that the league is better from a sporting pov falls on its face when a Utd side that finished 2nd or 3rd in the league regularly get stymied by the likes of Villareal and Sevilla.

 

[Hammondo]

They are poorer I.e having less money, not worse.

The amount of CLs and ELs La Liga clubs have won over the last 15 years is a testament for that. It’s not like English clubs have covered themselves in glory in either. The PL is a better product but the idea that the league is better from a sporting pov falls on its face when a Utd side that finished 2nd or 3rd in the league regularly get stymied by the likes of Villareal and Sevilla.

Yea that's a fair argument, but in recent years pl teams have won the most CLs.

But again it's comes down to my point, does RM being dominant mean they are the best, because their cl glory comes down to 2 teams, and one of them has been poor. And EL has been nearly completely down to one team. Do we judge leagues just on those? Pl has done well in the CL in the last 5 years. How far do you wanna go back?

 

[Acheron]

My point was that, if you're going to have this supercilious mentality, then it doesn't really work if your best managers and players are foreigners. Because then you're taking the top people from other countries and then saying to those same countries 'we're better than you'.

Yup, what some people tend to forget is that other leagues keep producing top players and managers and people are also biased towards the overspending of the premier league so they don't rate the players before they move to a PL club for a ridiculous amount of money. For the record I do think the Premier League is the stronger currently but the gap isn't as big as some people make it out to be.

 

[Fobal]

The thing is that the EPL is on the move to actually finally grabbing players that normally would have gone only to Italy, Spain or other Euro Leagues, they never had that constant feeding of players from South American or "smaller" Euro Continental Leagues through history.
In the last years, the EPL has landed some of the best coaches ever, from Mou, to Pep, to Klopp, etc. that brought lots of styles to the mix with their more "Continental" approach to the game.
The financial muscle of their top teams and the League as a whole is every day bigger. The Media is stronger than ever while retaining its classic appeal and original tradition.
Yet like it's said multiple times, the over the top praise and some fans actually believing it, while being perpetuated by the Media and former players it has become tiresome, yet "logical".
If anything, what it's actually great from the EPL is the infraestructure, the Club Culture (that club from hood feeling) and having many of their biggest Clubs, plus some smaller ones with a bigger financial muscle than in other Leagues bringing a more levelleld ground to compete.
This sometimes cloud the analysis, being particulary silly in those Super Barca and Super Real days; people didn't realize that the other teams in La Liga under them were actually great too and many times perfectly capable of compete head to head against any Big English Club, it was just that those two Freaky Clubs and their period teams were extremely good, so in a long term competition it was logical that they would prevail. Not that much in KO stages where like in WCs timing is almost everything, but still treated many times a s "farmer" League, La Liga won multiple titles and big game upsets agains lots of EPL teams constantly.

 

[Kwabs]

Yup, what some people tend to forget is that other leagues keep producing top players and managers and people are also biased towards the overspending of the premier league so they don't rate the players before they move to a PL club for a ridiculous amount of money. For the record I do think the Premier League is the stronger currently but the gap isn't as big as some people make it out to be.

Agree 100% with the bolded, and that's the key. No one is saying that the PL is not a strong league, it's the hyperbole that's annoying.

 

[Pickle85]

Yup, what some people tend to forget is that other leagues keep producing top players and managers and people are also biased towards the overspending of the premier league so they don't rate the players before they move to a PL club for a ridiculous amount of money. For the record I do think the Premier League is the stronger currently but the gap isn't as big as some people make it out to be.

But I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this do they? The poster you're quoting is saying that the PL superiority complex is invalidated by the fact that most of the players aren't British. Which is a bizarre opinion to me.

 

[Acheron]

But I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this do they? The poster you're quoting is saying that the PL superiority complex is invalidated by the fact that most of the players aren't British. Which is a bizarre opinion to me.

Currently England does have a strong national team and when Spanish clubs were dominating European competitions it was also at the time Spain won a World Cup and two Euros. Aside from that I'm not quite sure which league has more foreigners but internationally I'm pretty sure most of the players of PL clubs are internationals for their country and that's a very good standard in my opinion.

 

[Pickle85]

Currently England does have a strong national team and when Spanish clubs were dominating European competitions it was also at the time Spain won a World Cup and two Euros. Aside from that I'm not quite sure which league has more foreigners but internationally I'm pretty sure most of the players of PL clubs are internationals for their country and that's a very good standard in my opinion.

Agreed!

 

[Kwabs]

Because it's a product that it's in their best interests to market as such. During the early 90s I don't think you'd get many fans claiming that the prem was better than serie a with a straight face, for instance.

And do you think that the media of other major nations routinely and historically market their leagues as 'the best in the world'?

 

[Pickle85]

And do you think that the media of other major nations routinely and historically market their leagues as 'the best in the world'?

I have no idea, quite honestly. But the media clearly have a vested interest in playing the league up as such.

It seems as though you're intent on perpetuating the 'arrogant English folks' trope, regardless of whether or not it makes sense in this context, so I think we've probably reached the end of this conversation.

 

[Kwabs]

I have no idea, quite honestly. But the media clearly have a vested interest in playing the league up as such.

It seems as though you're intent on perpetuating the 'arrogant English folks' trope, regardless of whether or not it makes sense in this context, so I think we've probably reached the end of this conversation.

Since you have no idea, I'll tell you. The answer, for the most part, is 'no they don't'. And I'm not perpetuating anything, you responded to me and I was explaining my thinking. And it makes perfect sense, it's just that you don't happen to agree. Which is fine.

 

[giorno]

And do you think that the media of other major nations routinely and historically market their leagues as 'the best in the world'?

Yes. Whenever they can they do. Italy spent 2 decades at it. Spain as well. Some of it at the same time too(Spain were right)

 

[JPRouve]

I'm pretty sure that it's Skysports that marketed it as the best league in the World which makes perfect sense since the goal was sell broadcasts globally. It would be misguided to target the PL for something that comes from the broadcaster.

 

[Kwabs]

Yes. Whenever they can they do. Italy spent 2 decades at it. Spain as well. Some of it at the same time too(Spain were right)

I've lived in England, Spain and Germany and I do not recall anything like the self-aggrandisement in the latter 2 countries. I cannot speak for Italy, however.

 

[Wumminator]

The op was proved wrong on this bullshit statement in 2015 and people are still trying to use it now

proven wrong?
This thread has consistently proven me right.

 

[Woziak]

Currently let’s be honest here, irrespective of the relative failure this season in Europe, Man City115 are an elite team on the pitch, LiVARpool are at times breathtaking, Arsenal maybe the best team in the PL this season?

Yet all 3 of the top teams are not vintage, City, Liverpool or Arsenal teams, they don’t have the aura of invincibility and they don’t seem to be able to race through the gears in games to obliterate the opposition!

Villa are very well run unit possibly over achieving however if you watched the Lille game, they were very lucky to win that tie, United beating them twice this year tells you that they have a long way to go to be CL regulars and next seasons increase in fixtures will seriously derail them, this applies to spurs as well but they have far more resources to improve and become a decent CL team, as for Newcastle, I think they will comfortably finish 6th qualify for Europa and improve steadily but they are still 4 or 5 players minimum from being a truly elite team.

United and Chelsea, words fail me they are pale shadows of the teams that once stuck fear into Europes Elite teams. West Ham are distinctly average, drunk on their own self importance on playing the West Ham way who have a few decent players, Fulham blow hot and cold more than any team I’ve ever seen.

Wolves, Palace, Bournemouth are all riding the wave of new manager bounce, let’s see what their like next season, Brighton and Brentford are stable PL teams but they have not been as good this year as they were in the last 2 or 3, maybe the bubbles burst and one might be a surprise relegation candidate next season.

Finally Luton, Everton, Burnley, Forrest and Sheffield United are probably the 5 worst bottom teams I’ve ever seen in this league where you would say with some confidence that the Top 5 in the championship are all superior to them.
Right now the PL is the 4th best League in Europe behind Spain, Italy and Germany so let’s stop kidding ourselves.

Some of this might be down to one team dominating in the last 4/5 years but more likely the other teams not striving to become a better footballing side like Girona, Bayern Leverkusen or Bologna.

The PL needs a huge improvement next year from United and Chelsea, Three teams that come up that want to stay up and compete, maybe like Leicester, Leeds and Ipswich but more importantly it needs fresh ideas and coaches that want to win, play attractive wining football and don’t use the constant rant of players being injured and the PL fixtures do not give them a chance to succeed in European competition to mask their own tactical deficiencies and failures!

 

[Pickle85]

Since you have no idea, I'll tell you. The answer, for the most part, is 'no they don't'. And I'm not perpetuating anything, you responded to me and I was explaining my thinking. And it makes perfect sense, it's just that you don't happen to agree. Which is fine.

People more knowledgeable than me disagree with this assertion but you obviously won't be told otherwise. I think the way that the PL is marketed bothers you and you've overreached and used that to characterize an historic national attitude towards the PL (and you even said division one, which is total rubbish) as the best in the world. It's a nonsense position.

 

[giorno]

I've lived in England, Spain and Germany and I do not recall anything like the self-aggrandisement in the latter 2 countries. I cannot speak for Italy, however.

Spain self-aggrandizes right now still. Not nearly to the level they did a decade ago, of course, because it's evidently no longer true, but they do. Every chance they get. Italy were still bigging up Serie A against the other leagues in the years following calciopoli...

It is true though that Skysports marketing of the PL as "the best league in the world" goes well beyond what broadcasters did in Spain and Italy(though LaLiga is actially doing something similar right now)

 

[devaneios]

If you think that Angs are bad, be thankful you don't have to deal with Args. They have British self-delusion, Spanish behavior in stadiums and the referees of Madrid and Barcelona in their continental cups games.

 

[Fobal]

If you think that Angs are bad, be thankful you don't have to deal with Args. They have British self-delusion, Spanish behavior in stadiums and the referees of Madrid and Barcelona in their continental cups games.

Yeah Mr Objective from Objective land...

The reality is that due to the Rise of Social Media, the traditional Media has been mimicking the worst aspects of it and lost many of the good aspects that they at least fake in the past.

 

[devaneios]

If you think that Angs are bad, be thankful you don't have to deal with Args. They have British self-delusion, Spanish behavior in stadiums and the referees of Madrid and Barcelona in their continental cups games.

Also, all of them play like Cholo's Atleti.

 

[Fobal]

Spain self-aggrandizes right now still. Not nearly to the level they did a decade ago, of course, because it's evidently no longer true, but they do. Every chance they get. Italy were still bigging up Serie A against the other leagues in the years following calciopoli...

It is true though that Skysports marketing of the PL as "the best league in the world" goes well beyond what broadcasters did in Spain and Italy(though LaLiga is actially doing something similar right now)

The English media vastly superior appeal has some basic logic behind, it has a wider reach for multiple reasons. Yet that it's not sthg to be much bothered about, we as mere fans buying that a very good player from a traditional League (many times called ina very silly way farmers league) would instantly not cope with EPL, just for the sake of how great the EPL is (no matter how great it actually is), that it's the real issue.

Like I've said tons of times, every Traditional League in their best financial periods and bonanza would praise itself to the max and over the top, in this current Social Media World, even more. The thing that historically makes a bit of a diff it's that the players involved in Serie A and La Liga were trully a step above what normally England would imported due also to very diff reasons, so at the end of the day, EPL is some how going from behind historically. Yet the future looks more prone to at some point reach those levels of multiple trully off the chart players playing their trait for a long period in EPL than otherwise. Right now EPL is grabbing more foreginers from all over the world more easily than in the past, the thing that doesn't help to reach Serie A level of the 80's or 90's is that we are also in a generational transition in the game as a whole, many of us also nostalgic of a certain type of players or styles that isn't that predominant so it's also a game of perception, of mere personal taste.
Also many things are just not there, it's almos imposible that a Zico would end in Udinese, Socrates and Passarella in Fiore, Maradona in Napoli while having the best Euro exponents like Platini in Juve. That is a world that has other rules, that does not exist anymore.

 

[Fobal]

Also, all of them play like Cholo's Atleti.

Não me encha o saco garoto, the worse thing to loose in life it's the mirror and not look at our own issues.

 

[Lebo]

Premier league is the best league in the world. I do think people expect way too much and then point out failures as a way to argue otherwise.
You can look at it like this. For the past 20yrs this is how English teams faired.
Premier league
1.Liverpool 2 + 2 final
2 Chelsea 2 + 1 final
3. United 1 + 2 final
4. City 1 + 1 final
5. Arsenal 0+ 1 final
6 Tottenham 0+ 1 final
It goes without saying that they fall shot of Madrid and Barcelona during that period but they still did better than everyone else. Bayern is on par with Liverpool.

 

[devaneios]

Não me encha o saco garoto, the worse thing to loose in life it's the mirror and not look at our own issues.

I thought Liverpool were from Uruguay.

 

[Fobal]

I thought Liverpool were from Uruguay.

Actually I dunno why it says Liverpool in my Profile, I'm not a Pool fan. I might did sthg. wrong (among the many thinsg I usually do wrong). I have to ask Invictus how to fix it.

 

[Kwabs]

People more knowledgeable than me disagree with this assertion but you obviously won't be told otherwise. I think the way that the PL is marketed bothers you and you've overreached and used that to characterize an historic national attitude towards the PL (and you even said division one, which is total rubbish) as the best in the world. It's a nonsense position.

Again, it isn't a nonsense position, you just don't agree with it. Please try and understand the difference. You don't see how a country that invented, codified and exported the game to everyone else, has the oldest association, clubs and competitions, refused to take part in the first three World Cups because they thought they were above it, refused to take part in the first European Cup because they thought they were above it (and nearly didn't take part in the second but for the intelligence and foresight of Sir Matt Busby) - might have a somewhat inflated sense of self when it comes to every aspect of its football and its flagship league, even today? OK, sure. For me, history always informs the attitudes of the present.

By the way, the 'best in the world' thing is not just the PL marketing g itself or just Sky Sports, it's every single pundit and ex-pro on every single TV and radio outlet. A bit excessive, in my opinion. And the average fan, like a Pavlovian dog swallows it whole and regurgitates it without stopping to think for a second - 'hold on - what is the actual evidence for this stated superiority?'

But it seems that we differ on this, so best to leave it there, as you suggested previously. Otherwise I'll have to start describing opinions you hold as 'nonsense' just because I have a different view.

 

[Pickle85]

Again, it isn't a nonsense position, you just don't agree with it. Please try and understand the difference. You don't see how a country that invented, codified and exported the game to everyone else, has the oldest association, clubs and competitions, refused to take part in the first three World Cups because they thought they were above it, refused to take part in the first European Cup because they thought they were above it (and nearly didn't take part in the second but for the intelligence and foresight of Sir Matt Busby) - might have a somewhat inflated sense of self when it comes to every aspect of its football and its flagship league, even today? OK, sure. For me, history always informs the attitudes of the present.

By the way, the 'best in the world' thing is not just the PL marketing g itself or just Sky Sports, it's every single pundit and ex-pro on every single TV and radio outlet. A bit excessive, in my opinion. And the average fan, like a Pavlovian dog swallows it whole and regurgitates it without stopping to think for a second - 'hold on - what is the actual evidence for this stated superiority?'

But it seems that we differ on this, so best to leave it there, as you suggested previously. Otherwise I'll have to start describing opinions you hold as 'nonsense' just because I have a different view.

Yawn. That chip on your shoulder sure seems heavy. I'm sorry that the media pushing the PL so aggressively bothers you and appreciate the fascinating history lesson. It's interesting to see what forms the bedrock of your conjecture.

 

[Kwabs]

Yawn. That chip on your shoulder sure seems heavy. I'm sorry that the media pushing the PL so aggressively bothers you and appreciate the fascinating history lesson. It's interesting to see what forms the bedrock of your conjecture.

I gave you facts. Specious and speculative ad hominems won't help your case, I'm afraid. Have a good day.

 

[Pickle85]

I gave you facts. Specious and speculative ad hominems won't help your case, I'm afraid. Have a good day.

You gave historical events and then extrapolated from that the attitude of an entire nation. It's an opinion founded on extremely shaky grounds but one from which you won't budge.

 

[Kwabs]

You gave historical events and then extrapolated from that the attitude of an entire nation. It's an opinion founded on extremely shaky grounds but one from which you won't budge.

But you haven't shown why you think it is founded on shaky grounds, merely resorted to ad hominems. If you want to demonstrate why, I'm all ears. Maybe I'll even 'budge'. Otherwise, I think it's fair to call out the arrogance, especially as the flip side of relentlessly bigging up your own league is disparaging and disrespecting other nations and leagues (cf Jamie Carragher, never the brightest bulb but someone with a lot of influence who should know better, describing La Liga as a 'joke' league).

 

[Pickle85]

But you haven't shown why you think it is founded on shaky grounds, merely resorted to ad hominems. If you want to demonstrate why, I'm all ears. Maybe I'll even 'budge'. Otherwise, I think it's fair to call out the arrogance, especially as the flip side of relentlessly bigging up your own league is disparaging and disrespecting other nations and leagues (cf Jamie Carragher, never the brightest bulb but someone with a lot of influence who should know better, describing La Liga as a 'joke' league).

It's founded on shaky grounds as you're painting the attitude of an entire country a certain way based on the fact that UK football's governing body refused to participate in world cups seventy or eighty years ago, along with some anecdotal evidence of Jamie Carragher calling La Liga a joke league (again, he's paid to have opinions that get people riled up, or at least talking). Surely you can see how nonsensical that is?