The relative strength of the Premier League

FrankFoot said:
Most of those players have fecked up UCL knockouts for PSG, not sure how that's a good collection of players aside from Di Maria, Verrati and Navas.

PSG defense has always looked shaky as feck in important UCL matches, even in ties they won, like that game tie against Bayern when they got dominated but Bayern couldn't score cause Lewandowski was injured.
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You don't think that a younger Thiago Silva and Marquinos are good players for the CL? They're a better pair than AC or Inter could play when one of them reaches this years final. And Silva literally won it 2 years ago with Chelsea
 
FrankFoot said:
Most of those players have fecked up UCL knockouts for PSG, not sure how that's a good collection of players aside from Di Maria, Verrati and Navas.

PSG defense has always looked shaky as feck in important UCL matches, even in ties they won, like that game tie against Bayern when they got dominated but Bayern couldn't score cause Lewandowski was injured.
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revisionism is on point. Both Marquinos (champions league squad of the season twice) and Thiago Silva (Fifpro world 11 x 3, champions league team of the year x 3, world cup all star x 2, world cup dream team x 2, ) were always rated as 2 of the top CB in Europe so I don't know what you are on about. Donarama is highly rated. Wijnaldum literally started for a dominant Liverpool team in Europe and was a key player, Rabiot always plays for top sides including France and we could do with him here, Nkunku was sort after not long ago, Hakimi was nominated for the Fifpro world 11.

That's an excellent collection of players
 
Libero_of_Yore said:
You don't think that a younger Thiago Silva and Marquinos are good players for the CL? They're a better pair than AC or Inter could play when one of them reaches this years final. And Silva literally won it 2 years ago with Chelsea
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Why do people always refer to Milan as 'AC'? That's like calling an English club 'FC'.
 
Been thinking that the level of turmoil we've seen in the PL over the past two seasons really doesn't reflect that well on the league - or on how it's handling its unprecedented level of financial dominance.

Looking at those two seasons, how many of current PL clubs could presently be described as well-run operations? Newcastle, Manchester City, Brighton, Arsenal, Brentford, maybe Fulham?

Bournemouth - ok, done improbably well to (probably) stay up, but it's hard to see this as a club that's going somewhere.

Serious questions could be asked about all the remaining.

Southampton - Heading down after stagnating and then deteriorating under a manager that was sacked too late, no longer producing much top talent, botched the generational transition this year, sacked two managers after getting Hasenhüttls replacement disastrously wrong.

Crystal Palace - Tried - again - to develop from a simple, direct, chronically lower-half side to something more ambitious, and once again lost their nerve and reverted to form, sacking their manager. Now heading where, exactly?

West Ham: Invested heavily in quality players but haven't been able to integrate them, and are regressing rather than developing. Seems to have reached the end of their cycle under Moyes.

Spurs: Two managers sacked, poor CL showing, collapsing in the league, DoF removed for criminal reasons, Harry Kane probably leaving, no sense of stylistic direction, mixed success in recruitment, recruitment geared to suit managers no longer there and unlikely to tally well with incoming. A complete shambles.

Chelsea: I'm not even going to go into that

Leicester: Just fell apart the last two seasons as recruitment dried up, leaving them with plenty of holes they're ill-equipped to fill, and with a very real possibility they're going down.

Aston Villa: Has been regressing most of the last two seasons, though recent major upswing under Emery provides hope. OK, if not impressive, recruitment.

Wolves: Despite very significant resources, they're stuck on the same limitations they've always had as a PL club, and increased investment over the past two season still leaves them worse than they were 4-5 seasons ago.

Nottingham Forest: Recruited 29 senior players this season, 5 of whom haven't played for them, and look increasingly likely to go right down again.

Everton: If it's not Chelsea or Spurs who's the obvious model case of how to waste tons of money while getting worse, it's Everton. If they go down, which is very possible, there's apparently the possibility the club may not survive.

Liverpool: Have fallen so badly this year that you have to question their previously heralded capacity for well-planned recruitment, and the sustainability of their playing style. Is this still a well-run club?

Manchester United: Well, you all remember where we were as recently as 10 months ago. The international laughing-stock of football.

Leeds: The Bielsa model broke down, The Jesse Marsch model didn't work (just as it hadn't in his previous two jobs), recruitment questionable and also overly geared towards Marsch's requirements. Could go down.



That's 13 out of 20 clubs, including 4 of the big 6. Surely you could expect better results from the exceedingly advantageous financial position EPL clubs are in?
 
Libero_of_Yore said:
You don't think that a younger Thiago Silva and Marquinos are good players for the CL? They're a better pair than AC or Inter could play when one of them reaches this years final. And Silva literally won it 2 years ago with Chelsea
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Thiago and Marquinhos looked shaky as feck in important UCL games.

I'm talking about their PSG stint, defense and midfield has always been the problem with PSG in these big games, they don't control games and are shaky at the back when the pressure hits them.
 
Stacks said:
revisionism is on point. Both Marquinos (champions league squad of the season twice) and Thiago Silva (Fifpro world 11 x 3, champions league team of the year x 3, world cup all star x 2, world cup dream team x 2, ) were always rated as 2 of the top CB in Europe so I don't know what you are on about. Donarama is highly rated. Wijnaldum literally started for a dominant Liverpool team in Europe and was a key player, Rabiot always plays for top sides including France and we could do with him here, Nkunku was sort after not long ago, Hakimi was nominated for the Fifpro world 11.

That's an excellent collection of players
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Donnaruma ruined the tie against Madrid.

Might as well mention Buffon too, when he had 2 blunders against United that costed PSG the tie.

I don't care about names, PSG defense in big games has been a disaster most of the times the got knocked out since Qatar bought them.
 
FrankFoot said:
Donnaruma ruined the tie against Madrid.

Might as well mention Buffon too, when he had 2 blunders against United that costed PSG the tie.

I don't care about names, PSG defense in big games has been a disaster most of the times the got knocked out since Qatar bought them.
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so a few mistakes mean they aren't top players? United won the CL twice in 15 years under SAF so any of our players who made errors to get us beat are not good players. United shipped a hatrick vs Ronaldo at OT and lost 6-5 on aggregate yet we had Ferdinand, Brown and Co. it happens
 
Most of PSG's CL exits have been either self-inflicted or terribly unlucky. I mean, '15 missing half their starters for the first leg then losing Thiago Silva after 20 minutes. '16, self-inflicted, pathetic defeat against City. '17, the 6-1. '18, a ridiculous ref, a late game meltdown then neymar getting injured. '19, self-immolation, '20 lost 1-0 in the final while being the better team on the night, '21 conceding 2 weird goals to city then losing Mbappé for the second leg then conceding another 2 unlucky goals against City, '22 Messi misses a penalty then Donnarumma, '23, no Mbappé most of the first leg, an offside by mm, no Neymar second leg, Vitinha missing an open goal, then another self-inflicted goal
 
Relegation candidates are winning European trophies. The greatest league in the world.
 
Eight english clubs will play an european competition next season thanks to tonight's West Ham win:

UEFA Champions League: Manchester City, Arsenal, Manchester United, Newcastle
UEFA Europa League: West Ham, Liverpool, Brighton
UEFA Conference League: Aston Villa.

The fact you'll watch the likes of Newcastle, Brighton WHU, Aston Villa in Europe next season and not absolute top clubs as Chelsea and Tottenham show, once again, how English Premier League is the most competitive league in the world.
 
Markolan said:
Eight english clubs will play an european competition next season thanks to tonight's West Ham win:

UEFA Champions League: Manchester City, Arsenal, Manchester United, Newcastle
UEFA Europa League: West Ham, Liverpool, Brighton
UEFA Conference League: Aston Villa.

The fact you'll watch the likes of Newcastle, Brighton WHU, Aston Villa in Europe next season and not absolute top clubs as Chelsea and Tottenham show, once again, how English Premier League is the most competitive league in the world.
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Good point

But quality wise this was a poor football coming from West Ham, Fiorentina were the more impressive team (without being that great themselves) but in the end that doesn't matter of course.
The overall quality of teams between Conference and Europa league is quite big though, it effectively feels like Europe's 3rd division.
 
Samid said:
Relegation candidates are winning European trophies. The greatest league in the world.
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Apart from City the league is very average, but yeah still best in the world although lack other elite teams. Think Serie A and La liga are as good.

Seems Serie A on the up and Spain on the down.
 
Markolan said:
Eight english clubs will play an european competition next season thanks to tonight's West Ham win:

UEFA Champions League: Manchester City, Arsenal, Manchester United, Newcastle
UEFA Europa League: West Ham, Liverpool, Brighton
UEFA Conference League: Aston Villa.

The fact you'll watch the likes of Newcastle, Brighton WHU, Aston Villa in Europe next season and not absolute top clubs as Chelsea and Tottenham show, once again, how English Premier League is the most competitive league in the world.
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8 Bundesliga teams went this season
11th placed Frankfurt won Europa
 
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I think West Ham did what Spanish and Italian clubs are often good at. Just getting the thing over the line. Not very impressive football, probably outplayed for long periods, but they won the big moments. It's a final at the end of the day, not a demonstration of technical ability. The result really is all that matters.

You wouldn't look at that and say there is a huge point to be made about leagues that we don't already know with the money the PL has relative to Serie A. It was two competitive sides. In another year West Ham should be doing a lot better in the league anyway.
 
The top four or five in the premiership has been pretty poor half the last four seasons considering the financial strength and it was poor this season.

But then European football has been poor during that period as well I feel, Bayern, Barcelona, Juventus have all slipped.

Where I do think the league is stronger than any others is from the middle down to the bottom, the quality there is rising season on season during the same four years.

We say this every year, but this summer is massive for the whole of Europe, not just the premiership
 
Andrade said:
Why do people always refer to Milan as 'AC'? That's like calling an English club 'FC'.
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Just saw this post for the first time. I was Milan a few months ago and the taxi driver made it very clear that it’s just “Milan”, never “AC Milan”.
 
lex talionis said:
Just saw this post for the first time. I was Milan a few months ago and the taxi driver made it very clear that it’s just “Milan”, never “AC Milan”.
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Yes, AC Milan is 'Milan' and Inter Milan is 'Inter'. That's what I thought it was.
 
utdalltheway said:
I didn’t know they did. I thought it was usually ‘Meelan’.
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Hear people all the time calling them 'AC'. Maybe it's an English thing. It's funny, when I travelled to other countries back in the day, I would often hear people refer to United as just 'Manchester'. There was no need for any elaboration, probably because that was the only club they knew from that city. This may be changing now....
 
It's hard to compete with City both in the PL and in Europe, but with Brighton, Newcastle and possibly Aston Villa knocking on the door to become regulars in the fight for UEL and UCL spots, leaving clubs like Spurs and Chelsea without European cup play, plus West Ham qualifying for UEL through Conference lague, it's hard to argue against the width and strength of the league. It's never been better compared to the rest of the world.
 
troylocker said:
It's hard to compete with City both in the PL and in Europe, but with Brighton, Newcastle and possibly Aston Villa knocking on the door to become regulars in the fight for UEL and UCL spots, leaving clubs like Spurs and Chelsea without European cup play, plus West Ham qualifying for UEL through Conference lague, it's hard to argue against the width and strength of the league. It's never been better compared to the rest of the world.
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This is true.

I do think that level of spending means United should be competing for the title, though. No team barring City can have expectations of winning it, but there are a number of teams who have invested enough to at least challenge.
 
The caf when an English top team fails to secure top 6: "The English league is so strong, even weaker teams can finish ahead of a top team"

The caf when a Spanish/Italian/German top team fails to secure top 6: "This league is a mess, they can't even finish ahead of the weaker teams"
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Its steadily heading to what peak serie A was in the mid 80s to mid 90s
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Definitely, but what PL is lacking is to have the best player in the world like Serie A did with Platini,Maradona, Zidane, R9, and Van Basten.

I think Haaland is the best chance PL has, but his playstyle will probably let him down a little bit to get that recognition unless he breaks all the goal scoring records.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Its steadily heading to what peak serie A was in the mid 80s to mid 90s
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There was far more variation of winners in that era though rather than City, I'd also say maybe the quality peaked a few years ago, I see some very good sides 7-10 in the table but the bottom half there's a lot of mediocrity as the Saudis are picking off a lot of talent that would have filled those teams.
 
Daydreamer said:
This is true.

I do think that level of spending means United should be competing for the title, though. No team barring City can have expectations of winning it, but there are a number of teams who have invested enough to at least challenge.
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My friend, talking about United's spending is absolutely pointless when you take into account the crap footballing structure behind the club. Scouts, director of football, Glazers - all of this is totally shambolic/incompetent.

I think your team has what it takes to truly compete with that oil monstrosity for the league this season(finally you have some solid depth), similar to what Klopp did with Liverpool for a few years. Good luck.
 
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FrankFoot said:
Definitely, but what PL is lacking is to have the best player in the world like Serie A did with Platini,Maradona, Zidane, R9, and Van Basten.

I think Haaland is the best chance PL has, but his playstyle will probably let him down a little bit to get that recognition unless he breaks all the goal scoring records.
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That's because supporters have allowed and accepted system coaches, whereby its harder for modern players to express there talents.
 
troylocker said:
It's hard to compete with City both in the PL and in Europe, but with Brighton, Newcastle and possibly Aston Villa knocking on the door to become regulars in the fight for UEL and UCL spots, leaving clubs like Spurs and Chelsea without European cup play, plus West Ham qualifying for UEL through Conference lague, it's hard to argue against the width and strength of the league. It's never been better compared to the rest of the world.
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Only because of the amount of money in the PL. It's not strong because great managers have put together great teams for the most part, it's because teams are spunking record fees left, right, and centre.
 
MO_Football92 said:
That's because supporters have allowed and accepted system coaches, whereby its harder for modern players to express there talents.
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Just no. The PL has arguably been the slowest league to start signing "system coaches" and one of the most clear system coaches (Pep) made Messi shine at Barca.

A system coach can and will tactically optimize his system to get the best out of his players.
 
stefan92 said:
Just no. The PL has arguably been the slowest league to start signing "system coaches" and one of the most clear system coaches (Pep) made Messi shine at Barca.

A system coach can and will tactically optimize his system to get the best out of his players.
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Peps system wasn't as structured at Barca as it is now. There's no comparison. The likes of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi had more freedom.

Nowadays, seems system coaches are more concerned about space and positional play. Hence why we don't have the stars of previous eras like Henry, Okocha, Bergkamp, Hazard etc
 
MO_Football92 said:
Peps system wasn't as structured at Barca as it is now. There's no comparison. The likes of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi had more freedom.

Nowadays, seems system coaches are more concerned about space and positional play. Hence why we don't have the stars of previous eras like Henry, Okocha, Bergkamp, Hazard etc
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Sorry but this is bollocks. There are quotes by Guardiola and his stuff that even Messi had to play in the positions he was played in up until the final third. Henry once reminisced in an interview how Pep signed him off at halftime although he had scored - the reason being that before he scored, he left his position.
 
Zen86 said:
Only because of the amount of money in the PL. It's not strong because great managers have put together great teams for the most part, it's because teams are spunking record fees left, right, and centre.
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True that money is the reason. The EPL has done a better job than the rest selling their product the last couple of decades.
 
troylocker said:
True that money is the reason. The EPL has done a better job than the rest selling their product the last couple of decades.
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A part of it is marketing, but probably more due to prevalence of the English-language and our Government's eagerness to sell pretty much anything if you have enough money. Most of these wealthy owners aren't buying clubs for the craic, they're doing it for influence, property, and other opportunities.
 
Zen86 said:
A part of it is marketing, but probably more due to prevalence of the English-language and our Government's eagerness to sell pretty much anything if you have enough money. Most of these wealthy owners aren't buying clubs for the craic, they're doing it for influence, property, and other opportunities.
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That alone doesn't explain the difference. The Bundesliga e. g. generates ~€200m annually from foreign TV rights, the EPL ~€2bn. Language barriers are a pretty weak argument in todays world, IMO. I'd say English clubs think bigger in the corporate sense in general than German clubs which tend to be pretty provincial and groudned in their commercial approach.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
There was far more variation of winners in that era though rather than City, I'd also say maybe the quality peaked a few years ago, I see some very good sides 7-10 in the table but the bottom half there's a lot of mediocrity as the Saudis are picking off a lot of talent that would have filled those teams.
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The advantage City has had is all their rivals have been caught in a rebuild cycle and they have Pep. When Pep leaves , assuming the rest fulfill their potential with this round of rebuild. It will become a proper dogfight to get a league title
 
Zehner said:
That alone doesn't explain the difference. The Bundesliga e. g. generates ~€200m annually from foreign TV rights, the EPL ~€2bn. Language barriers are a pretty weak argument in todays world, IMO. I'd say English clubs think bigger in the corporate sense in general than German clubs which tend to be pretty provincial and groudned in their commercial approach.
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The PL simply was the first league to truly embrace global marketing and it has leveraged that head start quite well.

And part of that is a much fairer distribution than in other countries to keep the league interesting.
 
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