214 reasons to dislike Canelo coming up
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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Joe CalzagheFun exercise for whoever wants to give it a go: rank the super middleweights into a top 10.
Roy Jones
Andre Ward
Joe Calzaghe
Canelo Alvarez
Nigel Benn
Chris Eubank
Steve Collins
James Toney
Mikkel Kessler
Michael Watson
Division is a baby in boxing terms, but I think highly competitive for top 5. Can't see anyone picking over Roy ( @Inter Yer Nan), but I guess there's merit in longevity.
Very curious to see where Ward, Calzaghe, Canelo, Benn and Eubank are placed.
I think Canelo gets battered or outscored by nearly everyone on that list, but that's just me, probably?
Roy Jones Jr
Andre Ward
Canelo
Carl Froch
Steve Collins
James Toney
Chris Eubanks
Nigel Benn
Mikkel Kessler
I honestly believe Andre Ward beats any 168-lber in history head to head, including Roy Jones
Jones is the best fighter on the list, and by quite some distance. But Calzaghe, for his overall body of work in the division is probably the #1. Jones is much better than Joe pound for pound but specifically at 168 I’ll take Joe’s whole career and he deserves the title as GOAT at 168.Fun exercise for whoever wants to give it a go: rank the super middleweights into a top 10.
Roy Jones
Andre Ward
Joe Calzaghe
Canelo Alvarez
Nigel Benn
Chris Eubank
Steve Collins
James Toney
Mikkel Kessler
Michael Watson
Division is a baby in boxing terms, but I think highly competitive for top 5. Can't see anyone picking over Roy ( @Inter Yer Nan
Very curious to see where Ward, Calzaghe, Canelo, Benn and Eubank are placed.
I think Canelo gets battered or outscored by nearly everyone on that list, but that's just me, probably?
Ward would be a tough match for both because of his intelligence and roughness. He’s a frustrating style to deal with but I think they both beat him. James Toney probably beats Ward too but he’d have to be on top of his game. I think that’s the best four. The history of the division isn’t super deep and that’s why maybe Canelo would be in the top 5 or 6 soon, but his run of opponents aren’t anything special. Think about it; Calzaghe got criticized for his opposition so much while Canelo is being put on a pedestal but I honestly think Lacy, Mitchell, Brewer, Woodhall, Reid, Sheika were better than what Canelo’s just run though.
Calzaghe is an interesting one - I don't think he really gets the respect he deserves, particularly so coming just after heavy-hitting war machines who were on their way out as he was rising to the top. He's perceived a bit to be a pitter-patter hands fighter, which for some, lowers his standing. I think for myself, I appreciated him more after he retired than when he was fighting. Can't really give a solid reason why, but he's got a higher esteem now than I'd have said if asked about him 10years ago.
I've got Ward and Jones top 2, but not sure who goes where, given Ward's intelligence and craft would be a leveller against Jones' superior speed and power, I think. But Calzaghe's longevity cannot be denied and I don't think there can be much of an issue if someone put him at #1
Canelo was my prompt to think about asking the question. I think he's fortunate to be boxing in this era where the super middles on this list are not all bunched up together like they have been in the past. Apart from Kessler on that list, I think he'd have a real difficult time navigating the rest, but perhaps I'm doing him a disservice there.
How do you rank Benn, Eubank, Watson and Collins, out of interest? They were huge here for putting on the fights they did, so it'd be interesting to get the take on them from an international perspective (goes for anyone else who's got a view, too!)
Kessler, before his injuries and stuff, would have an excellent chance against Canelo. He was busy and had a great jab. Not much inside game though so Canelo could have success there but he may lose a lot of rounds. I suppose in a Canelo fight that doesn’t matter as hell always get the benefit of the doubt.
Eubank, Benn, Collins, Watson etc; were excellent and in Watson and Benn you had two real crowd pleasers there. Collins peaked a bit later and was fortunate to catch them after they’d all beaten the primes out of each other. Good fighter no doubt. Eubank is a strange one. Stopped Benn against the odds, big wins over Watson, but also so many tepid performances and controversial decisions. All four of those though would have also ran through the division Canelo just did.
Froch, although I’m far from a fan of, I think may have had what it takes to defeat Canelo. I’d view that as an even matchup.
He’s a very talented fighter but I’m not sold that he’s the best in the world or a great fighter. I think the state of boxing and lack of stars is causing overhype. You get clueless/biased people already comparing him to Chavez like those are the two best Mexicans. Nonsense. He’s not in the top 10 or 12
I believe he lost clearly to Lara and twice vs. an aging GGG. These aren’t just my views these are the views of the majority. He’s failed drugs tests and has now moved up, gained speed, strength, power, and stamina while showing all signs (acne, roid rage, leaving the fight announcements late as possible despite knowing the opponent and training which is a huge sign of cycling, the physique, going from an average puncher at 154 to a guy breaking faces now), he also abuses the A side stuff, needs re-hydration clauses etc; and this is not done to make a “fair fight” it’s to handicap the opponent. So I think there’s just a lot of smoke and mirrors around the guy where he’s not on a level playing field.
I’m not as blown away by his competition as others. Like I said, lost to the three best guys he fought, I think Kovalev was fighting with handcuffs on (wouldn’t be surprised if there was a no knockout clause), throwing pitty Pat only and this was a shot version of Kovalev only weeks after a tough fight where he was nearly KO’d by a novice and also with a re-hydration clause so I tend to not put any stock into that or this extremely weak division he went through. 18 months ago he had “no interest” of 168 and Benavidez then all of a sudden they strip Benavidez and it’s a “history making goal”? Why didn’t he continue at middle? He didn’t seem to want to fight GGG again, Charlo or Andrade, who’s style I think he doesn’t fancy. After all he said he couldn’t even get up to middleweight as a reason not to fight GGG in 2016 now he can’t make it? He’s an opportunist.
As a fighter, he’s got a good chin, excellent counter puncher, good shot selection and is very well skilled. I just can’t take the bullshit around him and that’s why I’ve only watched one of his last four fights.
What are we making of Canelo moving up to cruiser weight, did not see that one coming. Still baffles me how he had little power at welterweight but now he’s taking on fights at cruiser, just crazy, I hope he gets properly drug’s tested this time.
Finally fighting at his natural weight hehe
I agree with the majority of this post, he also had a controversial fight against Trout from memory.
Don’t think GGG (now)/Charlo/Andrade present him with any problems to be honest, he’s moved up to take on Makabu who is probably the most attainable at cruiserweight, missing Beterbiev/Bivol who are much harder fights.
Knocked out Kovalev at Light Heavy don't forget. Was near the limit for that weight class too.
Hell never be fairly tested again. They’ve seen his fanatics don’t care and casual fans are clueless so they figure, why bother? Boxing is just a vehicle for Canelo to feck around with. This latest “title fight” is an example. I honestly wouldn’t even watch him fight Bivol or Beterbiev because he’ll have every PED known to man in his system and only have to go 12 to “win.” Where’s the fun?
Even Trout, they wouldn’t fight him unless Trout agreed to open scoring. The fight was being scored incorrectly so Trout, a defensive fighter, had to change his style, which was working, to claw back a pre-determined deficit. Even before then he was given BS titles like a Matthew Hatton fight at a made up catch fight he didn’t make but they still let him win the title.
It’s funny, he still cries about Mayweather not fighting the best, complains Mayweather won’t fight the top guys at their best, how he made Canelo fight at a catch weight with a re-hydration clause. It’s true of course. Floyd did all that stuff but Canelo was already doing it before he lost to Mayweather and now he’s done it so much more. He’s like Mayweather on steroids in that regard. Never has the sport seen a more opportunistic cherry picker who pulls the wool over the public’s eyes with his trinket collecting. I’m ashamed he’s a part of my sport and how the sport enables him.
Appreciate your posts buddy, very interesting and informative. What are your thoughts on Bud crawford vs Shawn Porter this weekend?
Agreed.
Really looking forward to it. Porter’s style isn’t my cup of tea, but his mentality and character is. He’s a tough fight for anyone. I think he’ll give Crawford looks he’s not seen before but I think Crawford will defeat him handily. Possibly even stoppage and wouldn’t that be a major statement?
Yeah i can't wait either. Like you say Porter has a somewhat awkward style and it'll be fascinating to see how Crawford adjusts to it and picks his spots/finds the openings. I can't see a stoppage personally but it would be a major statement if he puts him away. I do think Crawford wins a very tight battle.
Canelo officially moves up to Cruiserweight and is set to fight Makabu for a world title in 2022.
Love him or loathe him, this guy keeps himself active and puts boxing on the back pages. Can't wait to see how he acquits himself.
Love him or loathe him, this guy keeps himself active and puts boxing on the back pages. Can't wait to see how he acquits himself.
Anyone watching Andrade vs Quigley?
I've always had slight misgivings about Joe as potentially the best ever.
To me camping out on Wales for 90% of his career in uninteresting fights has to go against him. He was incredibly frustrating to follow because we knew he had the ability but it didn't translate to a great career for so long. I think that on retirement you kind of just remember the 0 and the good nights (Lacy, Kessler) but he did my nut in as you cannot really say he pushed the boat out in his career.
He did pull it back at the end, but is it really any better than Andre Ward? I would argue that the win over Froch as another potential top 10 is a pretty strong differentiating factor.
On ability, I'm not sure either. I don't think it matters as much as record as I think it starts to get into overall greatness and not achievement at the weight. But if we go down that line it's hard to go against Roy Jones as the best as he was just an utter freak, I don't see how anyone beats him.
Then I think Calzaghe struggles with Toney as well, if you look at how he struggled with an aged Hopkins - it's hard to imagine he beats a prime version and Toney was of this old school, unflappable ilk where he can make Joe miss and hit him with the better punches. Ward is clearly a tough fight too because usually Joe was good up close but Ward was a master, I see him landing the eye catching shots - can Joe outwork him? It's a question.
To me camping out on Wales for 90% of his career in uninteresting fights has to go against him. He was incredibly frustrating to follow because we knew he had the ability but it didn't translate to a great career for so long. I think that on retirement you kind of just remember the 0 and the good nights (Lacy, Kessler) but he did my nut in as you cannot really say he pushed the boat out in his career.
He did pull it back at the end, but is it really any better than Andre Ward? I would argue that the win over Froch as another potential top 10 is a pretty strong differentiating factor.
On ability, I'm not sure either. I don't think it matters as much as record as I think it starts to get into overall greatness and not achievement at the weight. But if we go down that line it's hard to go against Roy Jones as the best as he was just an utter freak, I don't see how anyone beats him.
Then I think Calzaghe struggles with Toney as well, if you look at how he struggled with an aged Hopkins - it's hard to imagine he beats a prime version and Toney was of this old school, unflappable ilk where he can make Joe miss and hit him with the better punches. Ward is clearly a tough fight too because usually Joe was good up close but Ward was a master, I see him landing the eye catching shots - can Joe outwork him? It's a question.
It's interesting but it does feel like a nicely picked opponent. Short for a cruiser, straight forward style. It mainly becomes about adjusting to the weight because it's not as if he's fighting a man that poses many questions technically. It's just about size and physicality and handling cruiserweight power but Canelo is an extremely tough man. Plus on the roids he'll bulk up nicely.
Basically I think they've very neatly picked a guy that's the right sort of package in the way Roy Jones did when he handpicked John Ruiz at heavy.
I was rather hoping he'd fight Beterbiev as I think that asks a lot more of Canelo but you can see the appeal of another title in another weight division.
By the same token that Joe stayed in the UK, Ward would not leave America. At least Joe left to go fight Hopkins in America whereas Ward never left and if you look at fights like Kessler, Kovalev I & II, benefitted from pro-US officiating. Calzaghe never used that or relied on it.
The money at 168 at that time was in the UK. He’d have been foolish to go to Germany to fight Ottke, much like Jones didn’t want to fight outside of America too despite big bucks in Germany for a Michelscewski fight.
I’ve never been able to agree with that angle. My question is, who should Calzaghe have fought in America?
Toney at his best could beat Joe but it’s a legitimately difficult task for him. Let’s not forget, Toney was beaten by Tiberi (one of the worst decisions ever), outhustled by Griffin, even though I felt he earned one of those decisions, beaten by Thadzi, and in an either way type fight with Johnson. Great fighter but not always consistent and two things that bothered him were volume guys with speed and movement.
It's not so much that he stayed in Wales, I was referring to that as fact rather than any great criticism - because I don't think it matters in modern boxing. We all accept they fight where the money is rather than based on absolute challenge. It's the competition. It was woeful for years and years. That's my problem with his record and supposed greatness because I think a certain amount of credit is due for those that challenge themselves throughout.
Joe could have done many things. He could have fought some of the Americans closer to their peak. He could have moved up in weight earlier and sought out competition there. He could have gone to America to press fighters from middleweight to think about the fight too. Pretty much anything except fighting nothing opponents for years. Fighters that have weak divisions can still strive for greatness. I don't think Joe ever did, he kind of milked the title for years and then realised at the end that to make massive money and get some kind of legacy he should step it up. Which he did so that's why he deserves to be in contention.
I don't really agree with the Ward reading. Ward dominated those fighters. The ref is a soft excuse, it's boxing, it's about getting it done within whatever you can get away with in my opinion. If there's the odd head going in, some holding - it's nothing new within boxing. It was just the cherry on top, I don't think it won him the fights but he realised he could rough these guys up physically, outbox them, fiddle them on the inside - it's why he's a conundrum to face, there isn't a weakness to target.
Ward got a total gift in the first Kovalev fight. One of the worst I’ve ever seen live. Even the rematch, he hooks up with Victor Conte, has some new acne on his body and even then, he finished the fight with blatant low blows. Even when he stunned Kovalev before that it was a blatant head butt which set it up and Ward’s career suggests it was no accident. The Kessler fight was a farce. He got away with something close to 80-90 fouls.
I think you're overegging it. There have been far worse decisions, this is boxing we're talking about, there was probably a worse one last week. I remember seeing it by a couple to Kovalev but nothing this dramatic.
This was when Kovalev was good anyway, and also at light heavy so more relevant to overall greatness than super middleweight rankings. And he still got it done in the rematch which to me is what it's about - you can have the odd close or even lost fight as a great but if you dominate the return, it punctuates that particular story.
Also, a lot of excuse making. Kessler fought soft in that fight. I actually think Mikkel was a bit overrated at the time. He showed his limitations, he wasn't an adapter. Straight up and down, if he can't land the jab he's out of the fight which is a weakness of that traditional style.
Ward simply exploited him, he couldn't fight on the inside, didn't like a physical fight and wasn't prepared to change tact. That's what you're supposed to do as a fighter, exploit your opponent. Mikkel fought as though it was an amateur fight when he was in there with a real dog of a fighter. The reffing is neither here nor there for me because I don't think it made a difference, it's a fight and he wasn't good enough at any point, but if I'm Andre Ward and can exploit a few loopholes to press the advantage then why not..
Jesus, felt that!
Nobody else about for Crawford v Porter?
That was a rough clash of heads
What’s the deal with Big E being involved with boxing introductions in the last few months
Should be a great fight Porter/Crawford
These ring walks needs to be shortened ffs!
Have Porter 3 up after 3, this cut don’t look good could.
Great fight so far. I've already given up trying to score it as there's so many close rounds.
Have it 4-2 Porter at the midway point could easily be 5-1..
5-4 now very close fight, Crawford getting better.
Wow.
Crawford ends it with double knockdown, the man’s some fighter.
Felt the corner could let it go a little longer but fair enough.
Felt the corner could let it go a little longer but fair enough.
Jumped the gun with that stoppage.
Yeah Spence clearly had seen enough
Crawford so good
Kenny Porter has to be one of the worst guys in boxing
Kenny Porter has to be one of the worst guys in boxing