Not overrated at all. Prime Tyson (and you’ve given the rough period there, it basically ended with the Buster Douglas defeat and then the prison term which took him out of the game for four years) is still the greatest heavyweight boxer I’ve ever seen. Ali was before my time. His speed and power was astonishing. Other top fighters at that time were legit afraid of him.
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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Not overrated at all. Prime Tyson (and you’ve given the rough period there, it basically ended with the Buster Douglas defeat and then the prison term which took him out of the game for four years) is still the greatest heavyweight boxer I’ve ever seen. Ali was before my time. His speed and power was astonishing. Other top fighters at that time were legit afraid of him.
Sky is done
The only good thing about it these days is RedZone
The only good thing about it these days is RedZone
Just read Eubanks v Williams is going to be PPV too, who the hell they kidding.
That guy who was doing the changing room interviews was well awkward.
This counts against him being one of the greats. You can't factor what someone could've been into their greatness, you can only factor what actually happened. It's like saying that Edwin Valero is one of the greatest fighters of the recent generation. He might well have been if he hadn't murdered his wife and hung himself. It's stepping into the realm of the counterfactual. There are countless athletes that could've had better careers if things had run better for them in their personal life.
You've also mentioned a couple of myths that are popular with Tyson fans. D'Amato died 4 fights into his pro career. Tyson won 25 fights after the death of D'Amato including all his greatest wins. Tyson was also comprehensively out boxed and knocked out by a non-elite heavyweight James Douglas two years before he entered prison. He was never really on the rails either. He was in all sorts of trouble when he was in D'Amato's troubled boys school. You can actually argue that D'Amato was bad for Tyson on a personal level. Whilst Teddy Atlas has an axe to grind with Tyson his beef seems to stem from D'Amato allowing Tyson to get away with disturbing bad behavior in the troubled boy's school that D'Amato ran. Some of this, at least in Atlas's testimony, was to do with him molesting girls at school (including Atlas's cousin) and being generally manipulative to D'Amato and his family. Atlas accuses Tyson of destroying the spirit of the school because D'Amato was so drunk on the idea of having a heavyweight world champion in his years approaching death that he abandoned the principles that the school was founded on. Tyson was basically held to a much lower behaviour standard than the other boys by D'Amato because of his fighting talent.
Personally I think Tyson is the greatest myth in boxing. Not because he wasn't an elite fighter but because he's held in a far higher esteem by some than his record deserves. He didn't beat an elite heavyweight in their prime, in fact he lost all such fights. The media hype seems to have allowed him be judged on what he might of done rather than what he achieved, which doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. This is reflected by how most credible boxing historians assess his career.
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There’s a lot here, some I agree with and some I vehemently disagree with. But before I get into a discussion about it, did you actually see him fight?
Not live but yes I saw a lot of his fights.
Once again I've gone down the YouTube rabbit hole. Just watched Price Nazeer's best clips and my god what an entertainer, amazing. Also for old-time boxing fans, how good was Lennox Lewis? He seemed to beat pretty much everyone and some legendary names too. Any reason he isn't rated as the greatest heavyweight?
OK, so where would you rank Tyson all time?
Chin made of plexiglass. But a skilled fighter.
How did he get so many wins if his chin was so weak? I mean he beat Tyson and Hollyfield, surely you can't do that without taking a punch but i'd happy to learn more?
This is absolute nonsense. I cannot believe that anyone could have watched his fights against Morrison, Mercer, Briggs, Tua, Holyfield, Bruno, Vitali etc. and concluded that he has a bad chin. It’s pretty laughable.
The guy fought a long tough career in an era with a lot of heavyweights who hit hard and only ever hit the canvas twice. I’ve seen every single fight of his since he won the European title and Lennox had a good chin.
I was exaggerating for comic effect. But it was a reference to the couple of times he was put to sleep by one punch. On the poster’s question of why he’s underrated, I don’t actually know. What do you think?
Not in the top 10 greatest heavyweights and nowhere near the greatest P4P fighter. I only say he's so overrated because some of his fans think he's the greatest P4P fighter of all time.
Bill Caplan had him all the way down as the 17th greatest heavyweight, perhaps a little controversially. I actually think that Tyson Fury is ahead of him in the all time list now as well. If you look at Caplan's criticism of Tyson then Fury is quite the opposite.
Iron Mike, another D’Amato creation, was the world’s greatest front runner. Never once did he walk through fire and win. He never came from behind to win. He never rose from the deck to win. Lack of heart? Lack of character? I don’t know. You tell me.
A lot of what makes a fighter great is how they come back from adversity. In the case of Lennox Lewis it's generally cited that his two knockout wins over the guys that knocked him out is a big contributor to his legacy as a great. Tyson for all his talent couldn't handle adversity.
https://www.ringtv.com/410833-bill-caplans-20-greatest-heavyweights/
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You think Tyson Fury is ahead of Mike Tyson now? Come on man, that is a ridiculous claim, with all due respect to Fury.
You can argue about whether Tyson is top 10 or top 20. There’s been a lot of great heavyweights in history. Most would put Louis one and Ali second or vice versa. Then there’s Foreman, Frazier, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Marciano, etc. These fighters can all credibly be ranked above Tyson.
But for you to claim Fury is now ahead?! Mike Tyson was the youngest ever to win the HW title, the first to unify the belts, and he beat 13 world champions in his career. Fury has to date (at age 33) beaten what? Two? Three? His best wins are against a guy with zero boxing skill who started in the sport in his twenties and a near 40 year old Wlad Klitschko. That doesn’t qualify you to be one of the top ten or twenty HWs in my book.
Have you confused him with Prince Naseem?
You think Naseem had a suspect chin?
That's a fair point. Most of his resume is largely underwhelming at this point. He needs more signature wins.
Well he was knocked down a lot in his career to be honest
I think he’s a good fighter but who is there to beat these days? I don’t rate Joshua either and Usyk has ability but he’s a cruiserweight. Who else? Whyte? It’s a bad time for the HW division.
I don't think Lennox is underrated because I mean, most people would rate him in the top 10 heavyweights of all time. For me he was a brilliant boxer... amazing jab which was beautiful when he used to double it up. Fantastic uppercut and a brilliantly accurate combination puncher when he used to let his hands go.
He obviously has those two blemishes on his record. It was a huge shot he took from McCall early in their first fight but I also agree with Lennox that the referee stopped it too soon. Perhaps a bit of inexperience on Lewis' part in that he bounced back to his feet too fast and was clearly on unsteady legs but I don't think the referee should have ended it as quickly as he did. I think the champ deserved a chance to recover even if it's likely he gets stopped shortly after. This is one thing Fury does very well in that when he gets knocked down... he doesn't rush back to his feet and gives himself a moment to get his senses back.
The first fight against Rahman he just didn't look good at all... poor preparation maybe and flying out late when fighting at high altitude probably didn't help - not enough time to acclimatise.
Yeah the Rahman knockout was awful. I think he’s one of the few fighters though who managed to avenge all his defeats.
He was easy to hit due to his style and as he fought better fighters towards the end of his career he suffered more flash knockdowns but you rarely saw him hurt and he was never stopped in his career, losing once on points
If anything I'd suggest he had a fantastic chin and he needed it because he'd leave it hanging out all the time!
What a fighter though
When you're constantly off balance and fighting in such an unorthodox way, it's easy to be dropped via momentum that hasn't really got anything to do with your chin - you can tell from how quickly the fighter gets up and how he continues whether it's his chin or simply unconventional angles and collisions creating a perfect storm. Nas rarely got caught flush; his punch resistance was rarely challenged. He's not someone I'd consider having a weak chin, personally.
Lewis and Holyfield would not have lasted one round with a peak Tyson let's get serious here. Tyson would have them knocked out inside 90 seconds.
Bowe who knows? Tyson has always said he would never fight with Bowe because they grew up together and were too friendly.
Bowe who knows? Tyson has always said he would never fight with Bowe because they grew up together and were too friendly.
Excellent post and I agree with all of this.
The myth of peak Tyson is still strong I see. Peak Tyson went to decisions with Mitch Green and James Bonecrusher Smith, he also went to a decision to Ruddock a few years later, the same Ruddock that Lewis smoked in two rounds.Tyson would never of beaten Holyfield or Lewis.
Styles makes fights. Prime Tyson would be to quick and would just swarm all over Lewis it wouldnt last a round.
Evander would be foolish enough to stand and trade with Tyson similar story. If Bert Cooper rocked him early then Tyson would knock him out.
I would pick Lewis over Bowe but Bowe's size and style would trouble Tyson but I'd still expect Tyson to prevail.
Thinking Lewis and Holyfield are better because they beat an over the hill Tyson is just being foolish
I think if a young Tyson faced a young Lewis then Tyson would smoke him whereas if an older Tyson faced an older Lewis then Lewis would smoke him (as we saw).
Lewis has even said he has aged like a fine wine.
A young Tyson vs an older Lewis would be quite a sight but personally I think Lewis would outbox him.
It would be a 50/50 though but I lean towards Lewis even though Tyson was incredible as a 20yr old and at that age it will be hard for anybody to surpass him age wise.
Lewis has even said he has aged like a fine wine.
A young Tyson vs an older Lewis would be quite a sight but personally I think Lewis would outbox him.
It would be a 50/50 though but I lean towards Lewis even though Tyson was incredible as a 20yr old and at that age it will be hard for anybody to surpass him age wise.
No version of Tyson defeats a peak Lewis. More skilled, taller, bigger, longer jab. Tyson doesn’t get near.
I love Tyson but most of his wins came against bums and boxers who were retiring.
I think that peak Tyson might have done better against Holyfield, but then again, I would have had Holyfield as favorite.
On a side note just been reading that Bowe was actually due to fight again in some celebrity boxing thing but thankfully has been pulled out after footage of him training.
That could have been tragic and you wonder who is advising him into even thinking about fighting again.
I did see an interview recently where he looked in better shape and sounding better than he has recently but should be nowhere near a boxing ring.
Lewis deserves a lot of credit for retiring and staying retired
That could have been tragic and you wonder who is advising him into even thinking about fighting again.
I did see an interview recently where he looked in better shape and sounding better than he has recently but should be nowhere near a boxing ring.
Lewis deserves a lot of credit for retiring and staying retired
Lewis lost against much more inferior fighters though and i just don't see him even at his best keeping Tyson off him. Once Tyson gets through it would be over
In heavyweight, everyone has a chance against everyone, one punch could be all it takes. Lewis lost those two fights like that (in both cases, being massively underprepared), but a fully focused Lewis beats Tyson 7 or 8 times out of 10.
If you count against Lewis those two fights (which he avenged), then you have to count Douglas Buster against Mike.
Lewis was knocked out cold though. You really believe Lewis would be able to stop Tyson landing one punch on his chin?
I dont see it Lewis as much as i rate him i doubt he would be able to frustrate Tyson like Tucker and Bonecrusher although he may be better than both those he doesn't have their style to be able to do that his defences even at his best were not good he held his hands too low and was good enough to get away mostly
The best he could hope for is just try and evade for as long as he could. Add that to even in his prime Lewis struggled with his stamina and had difficulty fighting for three minutes every round.
Against Tyson with his intensity that's trouble
A focused Douglas however would always trouble Tyson as with Bowe i doubt he would be able to win but it wouldn't be easy for Mike.
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Annoyed that the Whyte fight has been cancelled.
Yeah it's a shame as it was an eliminator wasn't it? Having been the number one contender for so long without a shot he must be thinking he will never get another crack at the title.
Yesterday was a surreal experience. Went to Sugar Ray Leonard’s incredible home and witnessed Eder Jofre, Sugar Ray Leonard and Michael Nunn having an awesome time. Leonard was such a gentleman. To invite us into his home and welcome us the way he did was out of this world. He was so impressed by Eder and treated myself and his family with such class. A classy fighter and classy person all the way.
I will be writing a very big article on my experience this past week with Eder Jofre. Today I took him and his kids to the airport and bid them farewell. I am planning to bring them back here to LA next year where they were a big hit and felt the warmth of the people here. I also plan to take them to New York and Canastota. We accomplished a lot in this last week and topping it off with a visit to Leonard was perfect. We also FaceTimed with Harada for Japanese news and TV, spent absolute quality time with Carlos Zarate and family and Michael Nunn and his fiancée. To say the Nunns and Jofres got along well would be a massive understatement.
https://www.ringtv.com/628890-eder-...ized-61-years-after-he-first-became-champion/
I will be writing a very big article on my experience this past week with Eder Jofre. Today I took him and his kids to the airport and bid them farewell. I am planning to bring them back here to LA next year where they were a big hit and felt the warmth of the people here. I also plan to take them to New York and Canastota. We accomplished a lot in this last week and topping it off with a visit to Leonard was perfect. We also FaceTimed with Harada for Japanese news and TV, spent absolute quality time with Carlos Zarate and family and Michael Nunn and his fiancée. To say the Nunns and Jofres got along well would be a massive understatement.
https://www.ringtv.com/628890-eder-...ized-61-years-after-he-first-became-champion/
Is Michael Nunn out of prison? Good for him. I remember the Nunn v Toney fight. He had serious talent bar the strongest chin perhaps
Yes he is out now. He moved back to Southern California.
Awesome.