The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[DannyCAFC]

Usyk would have struggled against Riddick Bowe who would have been too big, prime Foreman and Prime Larry Holmes, even Leon Spinks would have given him huge problems, a top fighter like Ray Mercer would have given him huge problems, this era is just pretty average and that’s an honest opinion.

Interestingly I actually think right now Parker and a Focused Ruiz would give him problems too.

Leon Spinks is an enigma who is ultimately only known for beating an absolutely washed Ali and being a wasted talent, I'm not really sure what we can take of this. He probably could have given most great HW's some problems if he stayed on the right path and boxed to his best, don't think that's peak-for-peak better than Usyk though.

You also mention Mercer would cause him problems hypothetically... he also literally did this to Lewis and Holyfield who are regarded as 2 of the best HW's ever, so this would be nothing new. Again, I'd pick Usyk to win H2H.

Of course the era is somewhat lacking but you have to respect the achievements, going undisputed at CW and then moving up and beating the 2 other top guys in the era who are both legit super-heavies and never being beaten (for now anyway) is pretty remarkable.

I don't think we're necessarily talking about Usyk as a top HW of all-time in H2H stakes, but these days when you're discussing the HWs it's almost like a P4P discussion in itself given you've got a mix of guys who are natural cruiserweights vs 6'6, 250lb monsters.

The same arguments you are making here you could make against Holyfield, Joe Louis, Marciano - all 3 of whom are regarded as top 10 HW's of all-time (with Louis generally a lot higher than that).

If Usyk beats Fury again in the rematch and maybe defends 2-3 more times retiring undefeated, I do think he deserves to be in that conversation.

 

[VorZakone]

Real HW GOAT is Ike Ibeabuchi.

 

[Jam]

Come on behave he’s a great fighter in an average era, but prime Holyfield and Tyson basically 15’10 stone fast heavyweights with great technical ability and far more destructive power would have been too much for him. As for big heavyweights like Foreman, Lewis or Riddick Bowe he would have had huge problems.

But mentioning him in the same breath as Ali is absurd, Remember Artur Beterbiev beat him in the Amateurs, he’s not unbeatable. I actually think the rematch could easily end up in Tyson Favour, Great Boxer yes, Hall of Fame yes, Top 10 of all time?
No.

He needs to clean up the division first?
Parker, Ruiz, Wilder, Hergovic, Zhang,
J Anderson, and probably needs to beat Fury again then we can start talking about potentially top 3/5 of all time!

This is the take.

Usyk is undoubtably a great P4P boxer, and as things stand a good heavyweight as he’s held his own in that division. But he needs to clean it up with the variety of fighters active in the division.

I think that’s what holds current HWs back from previous eras - they seem to get to the top just want to “stay” there without proving their continued worth. Older HWs seemed to have a hunger where getting the title was just the start - you then had to beat everyone and stay there to be considered great.

Usyk has done his climb, and he doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone, but for him to be considered in a wider conversation he needs to stay there. Otherwise he’s just a top fighter of the moment.

Also cross-generational comparisons are always hard. Imagine Ali with modern sport science, less political controversy and today’s sport audience and **** of personality? If you thought of-his-time Ali was great and larger than life….

Also also single boxer fans make me laugh. Spend the entire build up calling Fury a bum / washed / bad boxer, and then acting as if Usyk dismantled him completely and then acting as if it’s worth something! Any reasonable person will tell you that was a good close fight between the best two in the division and ultimately the best on the night won.

OMG FURY IS TERRIBLE. OMG USYK WON HES THE GOATTTTT FR FR.

 

[Woziak]

This is the take.

Usyk is undoubtably a great P4P boxer, and as things stand a good heavyweight as he’s held his own in that division. But he needs to clean it up with the variety of fighters active in the division.

I think that’s what holds current HWs back from previous eras - they seem to get to the top just want to “stay” there without proving their continued worth. Older HWs seemed to have a hunger where getting the title was just the start - you then had to beat everyone and stay there to be considered great.

Usyk has done his climb, and he doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone, but for him to be considered in a wider conversation he needs to stay there. Otherwise he’s just a top fighter of the moment.

Also cross-generational comparisons are always hard. Imagine Ali with modern sport science, less political controversy and today’s sport audience and **** of personality? If you thought of-his-time Ali was great and larger than life….

Also also single boxer fans make me laugh. Spend the entire build up calling Fury a bum / washed / bad boxer, and then acting as if Usyk dismantled him completely and then acting as if it’s worth something! Any reasonable person will tell you that was a good close fight between the best two in the division and ultimately the best on the night won.

OMG FURY IS TERRIBLE. OMG USYK WON HES THE GOATTTTT FR FR.

Exactly and if their is a rematch there is no guarantee Usyk wins that fight, Fury makes slight adjustments, stops showboating comes in about 7lbs heavier and go after Usyk early, plus he throws the check hook which would have had huge success last night.

 

[Red the Bear]

I agree, but it will be hard for Usyk to turn down the commercial opportunities and Saudi money. He hasn’t had the same financial returns so far that other lesser boxers have, having always fought on the road. The money is not just about him and his family either. It is one thing to turn down money for yourself, but another when your country is at war and there is so much good you can do with the funds.

He's THE man now though, I'm sure he could get a few filler fights for decent money in Saudi while not having to risk it too much.

 

[Dan_F]

Come on behave he’s a great fighter in an average era, but prime Holyfield and Tyson basically 15’10 stone fast heavyweights with great technical ability and far more destructive power would have been too much for him. As for big heavyweights like Foreman, Lewis or Riddick Bowe he would have had huge problems.

But mentioning him in the same breath as Ali is absurd, Remember Artur Beterbiev beat him in the Amateurs, he’s not unbeatable. I actually think the rematch could easily end up in Tyson Favour, Great Boxer yes, Hall of Fame yes, Top 10 of all time?
No.

He needs to clean up the division first?
Parker, Ruiz, Wilder, Hergovic, Zhang,
J Anderson, and probably needs to beat Fury again then we can start talking about potentially top 3/5 of all time!

Nah, he’s 37. Fighting Ruiz etc do nothing for his legacy. He’s already beaten better heavyweights than the others on that list. I don’t think we can really rank him with the all time heavyweights but P4P he’s up there.

 

[Woziak]

Nah, he’s 37. Fighting Ruiz etc do nothing for his legacy. He’s already beaten better heavyweights than the others on that list. I don’t think we can really rank him with the all time heavyweights but P4P he’s up there.

And that’s my point fantastic p4p fighter but he’s had 6 heavyweight fights?

 

[Dan_F]

And that’s my point fantastic p4p fighter but he’s had 6 heavyweight fights?

I’d like to see him fight Fury again and retire. I’d already put him as the best heavyweight of this era after six fights, he doesn’t need to beat the likes of Ruiz to prove that, nor will that help his all time ranking against the best heavyweights. He’s beaten the best two of the last decade despite giving up so much size, what else should he need to prove.

 

[Glorio]

Nah, I reckon he was shitting bricks, Geebs. He looked nervous in the pre match showdown.

Usyk to Tyson (after the Furys' antics to try and intimidate him and his team): "Do not be afraid, I will never leave you alone in that ring"

Tyson:

 

[Abraxas]

He should have stuck with Ben Davison; Sugarhill doesn’t seem very tactically astute and and a bit entitled due to the Kronk link. Fury’s not a big enough puncher to fight the style he wants him to.

I think Fury will kick himself when he watches it back that he wasn’t more aggressive and should have pushed forward after rounds 5 & 6, Usyk looked a bit deflated at that time and Fury seemed less open when he was being aggressive with the right hand.

Bit inconsistent here, first you're saying he doesn't have the punch to fight like a Kronk fighter then you want him going forward and being aggressive!

I agree though, he should have been pushing Usyk back more because there is a vulnerability to Usyk. He's just very good at managing that vulnerability with his movement and he hides it well. The problem is I just don't think Fury has that in him now, not sure if it's mental or physical or both. But he kind of seems to have used that physicality and intensity up against Wilder. I don't think we're going to see that again, he hasn't shown it in either of his last two fights. Part of it is probably that Wilder was not very dangerous on the backfoot whereas these guys are.

 

[Glorio]

I think both these fellas would struggle with Kabayal. He's fresh, younger, brings a lot of pressure, Usyk would struggle to the body big time.

I'd call it a day if I was them because there's nothing they're gonna do that will enhance their standing. Well, Fury could rematch Usyk, that's his only option but I don't think he'll win. For Usyk there's nothing whatsoever to prove.

But it won't happen with the Saudi money in town, they'll probably keep going back to the well.

Come on ... There are levels in this sport and Kabayal is nowhere near these two

 

[Abraxas]

Come on ... There are levels in this sport and Kabayal is nowhere near these two

Nobody's at the level until they reach the level. Thats how it is in any combat sport. Both guys are showing big vulnerabilities which is normal because they're getting on now. Matter of time until the torch is passed.

 

[Glorio]

Out of interest while Usyk was rocking Fury, couldn't he have just taken a knee and give away the knockdown rather than take the damage and risk the fight getting ended?

I don't think his brain could compute anything while he was flopping round the ring like a catfish is a barrel - pure primal flight response at that point.

 

[Glorio]

Nobody's at the level until they reach the level. Thats how it is in any combat sport. Both guys are showing big vulnerabilities which is normal because they're getting on now. Matter of time until the torch is passed.

By your argument, you could mention any rando and say these two won't be able to handle him.

There are so many fighters between the level of opponents Kabayel has fought and these 2. He will have to prove he's worthy of stepping into a ring with them by beating those guys. In my opinion, both these fighters have way superior footwork, engines, and general ring craft, they'll dance rings round him.

 

[Abraxas]

By your argument, you could mention any rando and say these two won't be able to handle him.

There are so many fighters between the level of opponents Kabayel has fought and these 2. He will have to prove he's worthy of stepping into a ring with them by beating those guys. In my opinion, both these fighters have way superior footwork, engines, and general ring craft, they'll dance rings round him.

Nah, that's a straw man - Kabayal isn't a random. He's beaten a couple of decent names of late, undefeated guys, punchers, not guys you'd be queuing your prospect up to face- particularly last night was a good scalp for him. There's a reason he was on the bill, he isn't far off getting into contention for a title shot by merit so using this idea of a random is silly.

Of course it's a huge step but anyone that ever makes it to title level against an elite name takes it. What he needs is to face a Joseph Parker level fighter. Or Dillian Whyte would be ideal for him as Dillian is vulnerable at the moment but still a name. He's one or two fights away at most.

I think Fury might be close to done. Last night wasn't a bad performance by any means but again he's nearly finished and this time against a moderate puncher. That's twice in a row he's been on his last legs against two guys there isn't reason to be. One fight he's scraped by against an MMA guy and one he's fairly convincingly lost. Every sign is there now, it will be no surprise if he loses badly next time as he's got further difficult miles on the clock.

 

[SambaBoy]

Thought it was a very entertaining fight - not much clinching or hiding.

Also thought it was very close but Usyk 7-5 to me and also had a knockdown.

 

[Jam]

There’s a hierarchical pyramid to the sport - of course there’s younger promising fighters who are looking the biscuit and will eventually be at the top of the pyramid.

But you throw someone young and promising into the ring with Fury or Usyk and they get rocked, and lose some legitimacy.

There’s always a pool of “gatekeepers” in the HW division. People who aren’t champions but seem to float just below the belt holders. There’s plenty who aren’t just fight fodder for champions, they’re good fighters but don’t have that next level in them. That’s who the young lads should be chomping to get a fight with when ready.

Don’t run before you walk. Yeah eventually these young lads will be top, but eventually isn’t now.

 

[Dobba]

Watching the fight again with the spectacle side of things to one side and my biggest takeaway was that a prime Lennox Lewis vs Usyk would have been an all-timer fight.

feck AI, invent something that lets that happen.

 

[youngrell]

Great fight, very competitive and I feared the fix was in when the cards were read. Very glad to see the right guy got the decision. As close and competitive as it was, I just can’t see how Fury won 7 rounds. I think, aside from R9, Fury’s round wins were probably clearer, but there was only 2-3 of them.

Fury seemed to have made the right adjustments around R3 and was causing Usyk huge problems, but Tyson simply couldn’t sustain his attacks to get close to getting him out of there, and that was his downfall. Usyk always had another gear that Fury simply didn’t.

I also think the ref probably should have stopped it in R9, if it were the other way around with the big guy knocking the little guy around the ring he almost certainly would have. He also give him a few additional moments after the 8 count to steady himself and Fury was very groggy. Seen fighters stopped for much less.

 

[Dominos]

Thought it was a very entertaining fight - not much clinching or hiding.

This was Fury's biggest mistake surely. He's not there to put on a show for the fans, he's there to win. Every time Usyk gets close he should be tying him up and hitting him in the clinch and push the rules to the absolute limits and push the referee's leniency to the absolute limit.

He was over-confident that he could sit on the ropes like he does to his inferior opponents but has overlooked Usyk can actually land shots in situations where inferior boxers would usually be hitting air. And it cost Fury many close rounds.

The jab, uppercut and body shots were effective in Fury's best rounds but he just wasn't consistent enough in his actions across the 12 rounds. Every time he hit Usyk on the beltline he either winced or complained to the ref that it was low, or both. I'll have to rewatch but it felt like he took a few rounds to start implementing his most effective weapons, and from round 8 onwards he completely got away even attempting what was bringing him success earlier.

Part of it is mental fatigue I'm sure from as Usyk's pressure is insane but if he comes in with the right mentality of avoiding the ropes, clinching, and consistent use of his most effective weapons then he still has a chance of sneaking a decision next time.

 

[DannyCAFC]

Nah, that's a straw man - Kabayal isn't a random. He's beaten a couple of decent names of late, undefeated guys, punchers, not guys you'd be queuing your prospect up to face- particularly last night was a good scalp for him. There's a reason he was on the bill, he isn't far off getting into contention for a title shot by merit so using this idea of a random is silly.

Of course it's a huge step but anyone that ever makes it to title level against an elite name takes it. What he needs is to face a Joseph Parker level fighter. Or Dillian Whyte would be ideal for him as Dillian is vulnerable at the moment but still a name. He's one or two fights away at most.

I think Fury might be close to done. Last night wasn't a bad performance by any means but again he's nearly finished and this time against a moderate puncher. That's twice in a row he's been on his last legs against two guys there isn't reason to be. One fight he's scraped by against an MMA guy and one he's fairly convincingly lost. Every sign is there now, it will be no surprise if he loses badly next time as he's got further difficult miles on the clock.

Kabayal is decent but based on some of these posts, most definitely being over-rated a little based. 2 very good performances and he's done himself no harm, but never of these men had proven themselves to be contenders. And as Lewis pointed out on the broadcast - there's a good chance Sanchez shouldn't really have been in there with the obvious knee issue.

Let's see him step-up again before we start talking about him in with the likes of Usyk, Fury, AJ - none of whom I'd expect to have major issues with him.

Bakole would be good. Not sure it makes sense from a rankings standpoint as this was a WBC eliminator, though he should be high up with the WBA now as well (where Bakole is #1).

 

[Rams]

Kabayal is decent but based on some of these posts, most definitely being over-rated a little based. 2 very good performances and he's done himself no harm, but never of these men had proven themselves to be contenders. And as Lewis pointed out on the broadcast - there's a good chance Sanchez shouldn't really have been in there with the obvious knee issue.

Let's see him step-up again before we start talking about him in with the likes of Usyk, Fury, AJ - none of whom I'd expect to have major issues with him.

Bakole would be good. Not sure it makes sense from a rankings standpoint as this was a WBC eliminator, though he should be high up with the WBA now as well (where Bakole is #1).

Watching Itaume and then Kabayal… there’s only one future unified HW champ and it ain’t Kabayal or Bakole..

 

[Red the Bear]

Out of curiosity, who are considered the p4p GOATs in boxing?

Sugar Ray Robinson is universally acknowledged as the greatest but after him the list can get muddy and to be honest pretty dependent on how well you still rate the old timers from bygone times.

You'd got the likes of duran from the more modern times and say someone like Joe gans from way back whom I believe we don't have much footage if at all so you get the gist.

Foreman was at 218lbs vs Ali, so lighter than Usyk yesterday. And they are the same height.

Bowe was at 240 vs Holyfield, just 7lbs than Usyk yesterday.

Lewis at 246lbs.

I think people miss how big the heavyweights are nowadays, that what are considered historical bigs are essentially same weight/height as Usyk, and quite a bit smaller than Fury.

I think he defeats everyone you mentioned in this era. Parker and Ruiz are significantly worse than him and do not have any height advantage (Ruiz has fat advantage though). Wilder is finished. Hergovic and Zhang might be interested but I think Usyk has too much skill for them, would easily outpoint Zhang.

The weight difference and how much lighter the 70s boxers were could be pretty much attributed to the different outlook on training and endurance, they knew it could go to 15 rounds and prepared accordingly, so someone like foreman had he been around currently would be much heavier and as we saw when he made his comeback in the 90s would have absolutely no problem flooring guys left and right again.

Also another thing to mention is that I'm pretty sure all the top guys from 80s onwards were juiced to the gills.

 

[Parma Dewol]

If the only reason you’re still standing is because the ropes are holding you up it’s ruled a knockdown, which is why the referee intervened instead of letting him continue to be pummelled. So essentially he got a count as if he was knocked down, because by the rules he was.

That explains it, thanks. Makes sense, I just don’t recall seeing it happen before. The ref probably could have stopped it there, but I wonder if Fury’s prior powers of recovery factored into his decision to give him the count.

 

[Gringo]

I'm surprised people wanted it to be stop there. The ref saw the knockdown (ropes holding him up) and gave him a count, albeit slow one. I believe there was less than 10 seconds anyway in the round ? I and the boxers im sure don't want a legacy defining unification fight decided by a referee intervening. Fury was hurt yes but i don't think overly dangerously so.

 

[Redstain]

I'm surprised people wanted it to be stop there. The ref saw the knockdown (ropes holding him up) and gave him a count, albeit slow one. I believe there was less than 10 seconds anyway in the round ? I and the boxers im sure don't want a legacy defining unification fight decided by a referee intervening. Fury was hurt yes but i don't think overly dangerously so.

Those calls surprised me too, I feel like a ref needs to step in when a fighter is showing signs of being incapacitated or unable to defend themselves.

Fury got rocked and lost his equilibrium that's a vast difference. Came out well (by comparison) the following round which points towards him being dazed more than anything else.

 

[youngrell]

I'm surprised people wanted it to be stop there. The ref saw the knockdown (ropes holding him up) and gave him a count, albeit slow one. I believe there was less than 10 seconds anyway in the round ? I and the boxers im sure don't want a legacy defining unification fight decided by a referee intervening. Fury was hurt yes but i don't think overly dangerously so.

Those calls surprised me too, I feel like a ref needs to step in when a fighter is showing signs of being incapacitated or unable to defend themselves.

Fury got rocked and lost his equilibrium that's a vast difference. Came out well (by comparison) the following round which points towards him being dazed more than anything else.

He was all over the place with his hands down, it was probably only his sheer size and the fact he was falling over that prevented Usyk from getting a very good final connection. I’m not saying it was a certain stoppage, but we have seen fights stopped for far less.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7IRPbmPa2z/?igsh=dmd6YWtnZ29obGk4

 

[LDUred]

He was all over the place with his hands down, it was probably only his sheer size and the fact he was falling over that prevented Usyk from getting a very good final connection. I’m not saying it was a certain stoppage, but we have seen fights stopped for far less.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7IRPbmPa2z/?igsh=dmd6YWtnZ29obGk4

I think that's the original point, though, the magnitude of the fight was key. It was between two undefeated fighters. The refs MO was to keep it going as long as possible (within reason).

Fury was clearly hurt but was also using the ropes strategically to absorb any punches until he got caught clean again. It was good reffing in my view.

In any case, he was on steady legs by the next round so it was the right decision.

 

[SambaBoy]

And that’s my point fantastic p4p fighter but he’s had 6 heavyweight fights?

When you break it down though - those who are considered as ATG in the heavyweight division - how many of there fights are considered really impressive?

Normally in an ATG career, you'd probably have 4-8 fights that are the real making of a fighter. The rest are just building up to that, moving through the levels etc. Usyk has had 3 of them fights at HW - and numerous ones at cruiserweight.

He rose through the cruiserweight rankings as quickly as he could, entered the WBSS and won it convincingly in only his 15th pro fight - compare that to most people's resume and it's very impressive. The whole Gassiev v Usyk fight was billed as a 50/50 fight and Usyk dominated throughout. There was nothing else for him to achieve at cruiserweight so he made the decision to step up.

Many people questioned it in terms of his height/power. He faced criticism even at cruiser for his lack of punch power - hence why people were favouring Gassiev in the lead up to that fight. I think if you look at his career so far, I don't think he could have taken any different steps to be more impressive than he has been.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Thrilled Usyk won. Couldn't watch it as I was alcohol deep at a stag-do.

Absolutely loved Usyk ever since seeing him in early cruiserweight days.
Hope people finally put some respect on his name.

 

[Revan]

When you break it down though - those who are considered as ATG in the heavyweight division - how many of there fights are considered really impressive?

Normally in an ATG career, you'd probably have 4-8 fights that are the real making of a fighter. The rest are just building up to that, moving through the levels etc. Usyk has had 3 of them fights at HW - and numerous ones at cruiserweight.

He rose through the cruiserweight rankings as quickly as he could, entered the WBSS and won it convincingly in only his 15th pro fight - compare that to most people's resume and it's very impressive. The whole Gassiev v Usyk fight was billed as a 50/50 fight and Usyk dominated throughout. There was nothing else for him to achieve at cruiserweight so he made the decision to step up.

Many people questioned it in terms of his height/power. He faced criticism even at cruiser for his lack of punch power - hence why people were favouring Gassiev in the lead up to that fight. I think if you look at his career so far, I don't think he could have taken any different steps to be more impressive than he has been.

For example, the heavyweight GOAT, Ali in his peak fought Fraizer (3 times), Foreman, Liston (twice), Patterson (twice), Spinks (twice), Norton (3 times), Moore. These guys were all champions or previous champions and most of them rank high in all-time lists. Most of them rank higher than Fury, let alone Joshua.

I think that Usyk is the best heavyweight since Lewis though.

 

[Glorio]

For example, the heavyweight GOAT, Ali in his peak fought Fraizer (3 times), Foreman, Liston (twice), Patterson (twice), Spinks (twice), Norton (3 times), Moore. These guys were all champions or previous champions and most of them rank high in all-time lists. Most of them rank higher than Fury, let alone Joshua.

I think that Usyk is the best heavyweight since Lewis though.

Can't really blame Usyk for the nature of the boxing "business" today though. He's one fighter that has entertained all takers and beaten them all convincingly.

I don't think it's in his nature to duck anyone. A lot of boxing is about footwork and when you look at Usyk's, you've got to say, he's up there with some of the best we've seen.

It's pointless comparing fighters from different eras, but my word, the man is quality.
Fury is a giant and a very technical heavyweight, considered the absolute best of the bunch by many and yet I was pretty sure Usyk (who was a cruiserweight not too long ago) would win.

 

[Rajma]

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[Redlambs]

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[V.O.]

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[VorZakone]