I had a hard time trying to make it not look so clearly one. The only difference with your previous is there isn't such a big gap between the midfielders and Bergkamp and the three at the base aren't as flat. Functionally, and in terms of what people were meant to be doing it's exactly the same though. If the rule's application depends on design issues it's a crap rule!
The Reality Draft - QF: Theon/MJJ vs harms
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I had a hard time trying to make it not look so clearly one. The only difference with your previous is there isn't such a big gap between the midfielders and Bergkamp and the three at the base aren't as flat. Functionally, and in terms of what people were meant to be doing it's exactly the same though. If the rule's application depends on design issues it's a crap rule!
Will wait for Theon to be back and EAPs take on that rule before making a decision here.
I don't particularly like Sammer in this role. Whenever he drops down, MJJ's defensive line up would be with 4 attacking midfielders/forwards and just one central midfielder in Souness. Sammer is better of as just a midfielder here as when he drops down there is a massive tactical hole. Bonhof, Falcao but especially Neeskens would thrive having so much free space to just step in to and there aren't many better than Neeskens at this.
Quality wise I'd say MJJ/Theon are quite clear winners though. Just never seen a libero being used in a 2 man midfield.
Quality wise I'd say MJJ/Theon are quite clear winners though. Just never seen a libero being used in a 2 man midfield.
I don't see any issue with Sammer in midfield. He won't be the beast of a sweeper/libero he was but will perform well as the more defensive of the pair, leaving Souness to impose himself and make a mark in the game. The problem to me is this ridiculous trading of places between him and Passarella which adds up to much of a muchness and overburdens Souness defensively (as does him having to track Bergkamp and not Neeskens).
El Bocha really has to go here. Campbell and McGrath will clear crosses all game long, Daniel will be given total freedom, the midfield balances itself, and the attack is still very tasty.
El Bocha really has to go here. Campbell and McGrath will clear crosses all game long, Daniel will be given total freedom, the midfield balances itself, and the attack is still very tasty.
Doesn't seem like anyone particularly likes the Sammer role. But it should be pointed out that in terms of transitions, it's not the worst of set-ups: Sammer (regarded as a defender), Passarella and Cafu ain't exactly mugs when it comes to starting an attack.
The way I see it the four attackers can remain up front with relative impunity due to this relatively back heavy set-up. And, again, whether one likes the magic square variation or not - having to deal with those four ain't easy.
The way I see it the four attackers can remain up front with relative impunity due to this relatively back heavy set-up. And, again, whether one likes the magic square variation or not - having to deal with those four ain't easy.
It is 16 votes to Theon/MJJ
and 13 votes to harms with another 4 hours to go
and 13 votes to harms with another 4 hours to go
Absolutely, I have no doubt that side has great players for the transition. The thing is a freed up Passsarella, a Sammer with no covering detail and a Souness not overburdened with defensive work will strengthen the spine and add more to the buildup than Bochini is adding linking them up with the attack. Both Rivaldo and Totti can perform that role centrally and out wide.
I have no issues if Sammer was portrayed as a pure midfielder either, it is the fact that he has an arrow backwards towards a libero like position. Don't see much need either in overcomplicating the Sammer-Passarella thing either. If Passarella wants to push forward you just have to trust him that it is a well chosen opportunity and if you don't want that risk you shouldn't have played Passarella.
After all the libero/CB pushing forward is one of the roles which required most intelligent to perform at a high level and there is a reason Passarella is rated so highly - he made it work. Sammer is better than Passarella in the midfield, so if Sammer drops down every time Passarella moves forward you basically just swap Sammer to CB and Passarella to CM - both to an inferior position.
After all the libero/CB pushing forward is one of the roles which required most intelligent to perform at a high level and there is a reason Passarella is rated so highly - he made it work. Sammer is better than Passarella in the midfield, so if Sammer drops down every time Passarella moves forward you basically just swap Sammer to CB and Passarella to CM - both to an inferior position.
I'm not sure why I'm banging on about this so much, cue being drawn against Theon next... 
Agreed. And it would eliminate the doubt regarding the Sammer role to boot. Plus, as you said above, Bochini probably ain't doing much for Theon/MJJ in terms of votes.
Wow, lots to reply to here. On Sammer I don't see a problem - I love him in this role and think he has a hugely influential part to play, which is what you want to ask of great players. Annah specifically - I dont think a defensive midfield role patrolling that area in front of the defence is much different to a Libero who steps out to that area. I think there's a lot of overlap there, particularly with Sammer who is more comfortable in that position than virtually any other Libero.
Anto and a few others - I reckon I must have overcooked the covering for Passarella aspect but that's my fault. Don't blame Sammer. Really this wasn't even about Sammer, it was something I highlighted when I was speaking about Passarella. This was in response to some overboard and incorrect criticism which tried to paint Passarella as some liability defensively who kept charging carelessly down the pitch - that didn't happen. To repeat the basic point Passarella was primarily a rock solid, dominant centre back. He was good on the ball but even as liberos go this was secondary. In terms of Sammer what I was trying to say is that there is fantastic cover for Passarella anyway, should he get caught out. Someone in that defensive midfield position who can fill in at centre back would be a good thing should that need to happen.
So to reiterate, I don't think this arises more than one or two times a game. The reason for that is because Passarella wasn't the headless chicken he's at times being portrayed as - he's just the best defender on the pitch. But for arguments sake, in those one or two times that he might move forward and hypothetically if harms nicks the ball off him or cuts out a pass, what I'm saying is that there is really natural cover there in Sammer.
Anto and a few others - I reckon I must have overcooked the covering for Passarella aspect but that's my fault. Don't blame Sammer
. Really this wasn't even about Sammer, it was something I highlighted when I was speaking about Passarella. This was in response to some overboard and incorrect criticism which tried to paint Passarella as some liability defensively who kept charging carelessly down the pitch - that didn't happen. To repeat the basic point Passarella was primarily a rock solid, dominant centre back. He was good on the ball but even as liberos go this was secondary. In terms of Sammer what I was trying to say is that there is fantastic cover for Passarella anyway, should he get caught out. Someone in that defensive midfield position who can fill in at centre back would be a good thing should that need to happen.So to reiterate, I don't think this arises more than one or two times a game. The reason for that is because Passarella wasn't the headless chicken he's at times being portrayed as - he's just the best defender on the pitch. But for arguments sake, in those one or two times that he might move forward and hypothetically if harms nicks the ball off him or cuts out a pass, what I'm saying is that there is really natural cover there in Sammer.
@Theon, you are focusing so much on defending Passarella and Sammer that you are completely missing the point. Neeskens, right now, is utterly free with Sammer tracking Bergkamp, and Falcão has joined him going box-to-box. Souness can't cope with that, you need one of your lazy AMs to leave and Bochini is the obvious one.
Cheers for the answer. I asked about it earlier but couldn't find any reply which touched it which is why I posted. I changed my vote.(to a draw to make it clear).
Ouch! That's cruel. feck it, I'm voting harms.
I do agree with you on Bochini or Totti needing to leave here, personally for me to add a bit more fluidity to the set-up and free up certain individuals. However, you can't really expect Neeskens and Falcao to be more offensive, leaving Bonhof to handle Totti and Bochini. One of those duo have to be more defensive to help out the defense as Bonhof can't be single-handedly doing it(just like Souness like you've stated) with the plethora of attacking players that Theon's team has.
EDIT: I understand what you are trying to say here. It is going to be harms midfield trio against theon's midfield duo esp with his rather lazy attacking midfielders. However, conversely you also have to acknowledge that Theon's team has 4 supreme attacking players against 2 CBs and Bonhof and they will need a lot of assistance from Neeskens or Falcao. Thus, even though they were phenomenally complete midfielders they won't have as much freedom offensively as you are making out to be.
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Neeskens and Falcão can be offensive, it's not like they will stop paying attention to their duties when they don't have the ball. Theon's problem is different though. He has only two midfielders who do any defending, while harms has three. If Sammer tracks Bergkamp, that leaves Souness to handle both Falcão and Neeskens. It's not going to work. Even if, as you say, one stays defensive, they can choose who goes forward subject to who had to be left unattended by Souness. Against players of this quality, it's mental. Harms is at worst running a risk as possession changes, every team has that sort of risk, all the time, every game.
It's simple, if Theon hands over the midfield battle like that playing four passengers as far as defensive work is concerned he will be under sustained pressure, and under sustained pressure Mani Kaltz' crosses will result in a goal or two, and I fancy one of Bergkamp/Neeskens/Falcão to add another. I can't see him scoring as many at the other end on the break, however much I rate his front four.
18-14 as it stands, with Annah somehow under the illusion he is "voting for a draw" by giving two votes to MJJ/Theon.
Gotta go now, good luck.
Gotta go now, good luck.
Wait, what?18-14 as it stands, with Annah somehow under the illusion he is "voting for a draw" by giving two votes to MJJ/Theon.
Gotta go now, good luck.
I thought that he just withdrawn his vote as he thought that it was a draw@Annahnomoss
Hmm, seems like I can't just withdraw my vote, I have to change it. Weird.
If you really want to unvote and remain neutral, post here. I'll disregard it.
Really think a draw is the right choice here in my mind. Can see Kaltz having another great game here and Neeskens will have one most certainly. But difficult to not see MJJ&Theon score a couple as well considering how offensively minded the entire team is.
@Edgar Allan Pillow Cheers mate, would be brilliant.
EDIT: Can't believe Kaltz of all people has been the decider in two games in a row for harms.
@Edgar Allan Pillow Cheers mate, would be brilliant.
EDIT: Can't believe Kaltz of all people has been the decider in two games in a row for harms.
A 4-4-2 diamond in a typical sense would be a 2 winger 2 midfielder with one of the midfielder in defensive and other playing offensive.
Having checked OP, harms is playing Bergkamp as second striker and not as AM. He has included him in attack and not midfield writeup. So here I'll take it as 4-3-3.
Having checked OP, harms is playing Bergkamp as second striker and not as AM. He has included him in attack and not midfield writeup. So here I'll take it as 4-3-3.
well, not that surprising, two teams in a row has young and unproven left backs without any decent cover. Seriously, I don't know how the youngster in defense hasn't cost Theon a game here. He isn't even the best young left back right now!
Not really, a diamond has three midfielders and then an AM behind two forwards which is exactly what is going on here. United played a diamond at the weekend with fecking Rooney in that deeper role, but yet here with Bergkamp it doesnt qualify!Come on, he isn't just handing over the midfield battle to harms esp with 2 primarily defensive midfielders against 3 midfielders who have to perform both defensive and offensive duties... I generally don't like the player X dealing with player Y business as it seems too simplistic but let me indulge you here. Like you've stated Sammer is going to be busy with Bergkamp likewise Bonhof is going to have his hands full with one of Totti/Bochini.
This naturally could result in two scenarios. In the first scenario, Falcao and Neeskens decide to be more adventurous and offensive with the ball trying to 'gang up' on Souness like you've stated whilst leaving one of Totti/Bochini free reign at the back. Second scenario, one of Falcao and Neeskens decide to be more conservative whilst keeping a constant eye on one of Totti/Bochini. The first scenario is more risky and could be rewarding for harms but you you have to acknowledge the fact that Theon is playing 2 defensive monstrosities in Souness and Sammer who could win the ball and use one of the free Totti/Bochini on the counter to a devastating effect.
He he. That's the second paragraph. Bergkamp is not played as AM here. He is part of 3 strike combo.
So we are handing the midfield battle to him by playing four passengers but those four passengers(who are constantly staying up the pitch according to you) wont be able to counter attack once harms attacks fails? Okay.
Well, I don't think Kaltz will be that influential anyway but lets remember that he has the best attacker on the pitch in his area in Rivaldo.
He would absolutely thrive in that space if Kaltz keeps going forward. And Rivaldo was exceptional - He's more likely to win the game with a moment of magic than anyone else on the pitch.
The way I see it harms will have to unleash his midfield in an attacking sense in order to create any sort of imbalance. And with the required commitment comes the hazard of being exposed as soon as Theon/MJJ win the ball back.
It's more than a common, calculated risk in my opinion. There's a real chance for Theon/MJJ to be able to counter with the four "passengers" already in dangerous positions against a defense that just won't be able withstand such an assault.
It's more than a common, calculated risk in my opinion. There's a real chance for Theon/MJJ to be able to counter with the four "passengers" already in dangerous positions against a defense that just won't be able withstand such an assault.
Theon / MJJ - 14
.
Gio
Raees
Chesterlestreet
.
Jayvin
Cutch
Thisistheone
Rykker_4united
PedroMendez
Invictus
BigDunc9
RobinLFC
.
Annahnomoss (disregarded)
harms - 12
.
antohan
VivaJanuzaj
Skizzo
Joga Bonito
.
manikandan nair
Balu
Edgar Allan Pillow
Fergus' son
.
Gio
Raees
Chesterlestreet
.
Jayvin
Cutch
Thisistheone
Rykker_4united
PedroMendez
Invictus
BigDunc9
RobinLFC
.
Annahnomoss (disregarded)
harms - 12
.
antohan
VivaJanuzaj
Skizzo
Joga Bonito
.
manikandan nair
Balu
Edgar Allan Pillow
Fergus' son
and he is facing Neeskens, Kaltz and Krankl with Passarella at his side. Talk about playing with giants!Gio isnt a manager so shouldnt it be 13-12?
So just like rooney in our 4-4-2 diamond with falcao and RVP?
Righteo antohan, sorry for not responding sooner but I'll address some of your points. Firstly there is nothing inherently wrong with a 4-2-2-2. People have raised the same concerns about the diamond and the 3-5-2 in these drafts and as always, if you have the correct players there is never an issue.
I personally love this formation and it's capable of playing the exact type of football that I would want to watch, particulalry with wonderful passers like Bochini and Totti at the heart of it. In certain situations it lacks width but with Rivaldo, Totti, Cafu and Elkjaer there are numerous players capable of moving wide - most of those have done exactly this in narrow systems throughout their career.
I completely disagree with you on Bochini needing to go - I don't think it's a bad idea, but I don't think it's necessary either. Both work fine, this works fine. Defensively I think there is already enough there. In Passarella and McGrath we have quite comfortably the better centre back pairing and then in front of those are two midfield monstrosities in Sammer and Souness.
In Passarella and Sammer we have the two best defensive players on the pitch. Both have a huge role to play which is what you want to ask of great players - I remember you saying this yourself. I just don't see a problem anyway - Bergkamp is Harm's most creative player and I think Sammer will do a far better job limiting his influence in that area than Bonhof will do to Totti or Bochini.
I think some of the views you have put forward are not at all balanced. As has been pointed out by a few people, Falcao and Neeskens charging forward is going to leave gaps for that front four of Rivaldo-Totti-Bochini-Elkjaer. And that is a fantastic front four. It offers more threat in attack than Harms does the other way. It would leave Harm's completely exposed to the counter and there are numerous issues there - not least the fact that in Passarella and Sammer there is excellent distribution from the back. Both of those can immediately instigate attacks from deep.
You're just offering an imbalanced account. Highlighting the threat of midfield runners and then completely ignoring the space that leaves going the other way. Totti only needs a second before splitting a defence with a pass, I've already mentioned how Elkjaer would be a nightmare running at Ruggeri, and then most of all Rivaldo pulling into that space abandoned by Kaltz is guaranteed to create chances.
I personally love this formation and it's capable of playing the exact type of football that I would want to watch, particulalry with wonderful passers like Bochini and Totti at the heart of it. In certain situations it lacks width but with Rivaldo, Totti, Cafu and Elkjaer there are numerous players capable of moving wide - most of those have done exactly this in narrow systems throughout their career.
I completely disagree with you on Bochini needing to go - I don't think it's a bad idea, but I don't think it's necessary either. Both work fine, this works fine. Defensively I think there is already enough there. In Passarella and McGrath we have quite comfortably the better centre back pairing and then in front of those are two midfield monstrosities in Sammer and Souness.
In Passarella and Sammer we have the two best defensive players on the pitch. Both have a huge role to play which is what you want to ask of great players - I remember you saying this yourself. I just don't see a problem anyway - Bergkamp is Harm's most creative player and I think Sammer will do a far better job limiting his influence in that area than Bonhof will do to Totti or Bochini.
I think some of the views you have put forward are not at all balanced. As has been pointed out by a few people, Falcao and Neeskens charging forward is going to leave gaps for that front four of Rivaldo-Totti-Bochini-Elkjaer. And that is a fantastic front four. It offers more threat in attack than Harms does the other way. It would leave Harm's completely exposed to the counter and there are numerous issues there - not least the fact that in Passarella and Sammer there is excellent distribution from the back. Both of those can immediately instigate attacks from deep.
You're just offering an imbalanced account. Highlighting the threat of midfield runners and then completely ignoring the space that leaves going the other way. Totti only needs a second before splitting a defence with a pass, I've already mentioned how Elkjaer would be a nightmare running at Ruggeri, and then most of all Rivaldo pulling into that space abandoned by Kaltz is guaranteed to create chances.
It's complete nonsense, but c'est la vie.
Well, Rooney is expected to drop deep and create, making him a #10. More on the role he plays not his favourite position, imo.
Bergkamp isnt part of a diamond because he isnt expected to drop deep? So I can play zidane there and say he is staying up making it a 4-3-3?
Makes no sense at all.
I know it probably kills the game, which is a shame, but come on. It doesn't matter if you call the number 10 a forward or a midfielder, it's a fecking diamond. He could have played a flat midfield 3 with Bergkamp slightly to the right in a sort of christmas tree formation, then you could have argued against it. But the way harms set up the midfield and the 3 attackers makes it a diamond. It's never in a million years a 433, because a 433 needs two wingers.
Formation changed to midfield diamond!