Friday usually kills matches!
Match of the round and it has not completed a page
Match of the round and it has not completed a page
The Reality Draft - QF: Theon/MJJ vs harms
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Friday usually kills matches!
Match of the round and it has not completed a page
Well now it has
...... this has been disappointed. harms is winning 8-7 I think.
Agree, it's actually quite impressive how many different formations and positions Totti has played and excelled in. Tremendous footballer
7-7 if you don't count you or harms' vote, EAP only counts as 1 vote
You didn't get my point though - without Elkjaer in the box you can have all the width you want, same as in your last game you were happy to gave the flanks away because you were sure that Solskjaer and I don't remember who, Sanchez?, weren't the threat in the air to your defenders. Neeskens isn't the facial point of my attacks.
Oh, and yes, Blokhin is a tear below - but I do rate Blokhin higher that lot, it seems, he didn't get the credit that he deserved because of the Iron Curtain. Absolutely sublime player. And, what's important, he is going to be up against Rodriguez at times - this is a bigger mismatch than Rivaldo vs Kaltz or vs Forster (either more so if you consider that they were a part of an actual and very successful defensive unit). And he is going to be at his full speed, which is, again, scary - because you left a lot of free space on the flanks, considering that your "defensive" midfielders aren't drifting wide and Rivaldo or Totti won't help defensively.
If you are counting on Elkjaer to provide width, I have to say that Krankl is fit enough to cut inside from wide too, interchanging with Blokhin at times. I won't count on him doing this very often, as he has another duties to attend to, but still. It seems that his importance to this game isn't noted by anyone, but I would say that he is the best finisher on the pitch (and this includes Rivaldo, who is, of course, on another level overall). Scored 29 league goals in 30 matches in his La Liga days - Rivaldo's highest is 24 in 37. He provided much more than that, of course, and was a pure genius, but nobody is appreciating poor Krankl here
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forgot that eap wasn't. a manager.
one thing am.not getting about this discussion is all the talk of width. the team who dominates the middle is gonna win the Match.
yes neeskins and co are better at going wide but if they do cross it in we have four monsters incl. shmikes there to deal with it.
also think that souness and sammer offer more defensively than harms pair and in a tight game the best defense normally wins.
our front four is creative enough to create something out of nothing, totti is better than bwrgkamp and blochini might be from reading anto posts.
if one of them does go wide and the cross fails it gives us a man advantage on the counter attack with our forwards perfectly poised to exploit it.
Heard that already in the last game - but Krankl and Blokhin aren't Solskjaer and this madrid fella. It's laughable to say that you won't be disturbed by my crosses - especially while my delivery from the right is from one of the best crossers in history.
Sammer is, again and again, referred to as a part of a defensive unit. If he is one, how the hell are you going to dominate midfield? I was sure that my team edges it in midfield anyway, but with Sammer's sitting so deep it's just easy-peasy for me. And what "pair" is that that Souness and Sammer offer more defensively? I have three players in the middle, who all are very much capable at defending.
Souness wasn't great at defending - he was good and he was a freaking bully. I would say that he is on the verge of getting sent off here, really, with so many players running around him on the left specifically (his right), he would want to show them that they're not welcome here.
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That's true. He was a very strong bastard - used pure physicality to gain an edge frequently.
In terms of pure finishing skills I'd have Bergkamp above him personally. But Krankl was obviously more prolific, more of a pure goal scorer - and as the latter, he's the most eye catching on the pitch, indeed. The man scored buckets throughout his career.
have you never seen a defensive midfielder go deep when the oppositin is attacking and still make an control midfield? I see bonhorf can play as a box to box or a pure dm depending on the phase of play but sammer can't do the same? alrightee..
no matter how good a crosser you have. crossing as a mean of goals is very much a probability game. if you score a goal out of six/seven crosses you are very lucky.
you Will have two/three strikers(depending on where bergkamp is who isnt that good in the air) against three/four absolute monsters in the air who aren't very likely to lose their man.
plus we can easily start a counter attack from the back using paseralla or sammer when your players are outta position.
souness Will also do the same but since he will be more box to box I didn't mention him in the interest of fairness.
also reducing.him to a bully is doing a great disservice, it was a different era and the definition of tackles was different as well.
the two mid I am talking about were falcao and bonhorf as neeskin is more box to box so Will get caught out.
I wouldn't count Blokhin as a huge aerial threat either. Krankl more so, I suppose. But we're not dealing with players who were specialist headers of the ball, to put it like that. Whereas Passarella certainly was precisely that - and McGrath was great in the air too. So, yes - I reckon you're well equipped to deal with crosses.
So they all are in the box? And Carlos, bonhof and Falcao are against Cafu and Souness then and Kaltz can just pass it to them to shoot, for example?
I just don't think that anyone can said that Kaltz-Krankl aren't threatening to them when Kaltz is against Rodriguez, so, can cross without problems. Even if Krankl can win one of five aerial battles, which he is certainly can, it's a clear shot at goal. Passarella is a monster in the air, but Krankl is about 10 cm higher than him and have a brilliant movement and heading - for example
Okay, I'm gone - moving now. don't know how long will it take
You don't have to hit in crosses from wide areas though - different players would be natural doing different things. If you're playing a classic 4-4-2 with touch line hugging wingers then that might be something those players would often look to do.
But Elkjaer for instance isn't going to peel wide and then just hit balls into the box - that's not his style. He was extremely agile and quick with excellent dribbling ability, so I think more often than not once he received it wide he would just turn and dribble centrally - I think he could absolutely get at Ruggeri doing that, who wasn't the most agile of defenders.
I tried to explain some of this in that post,
To me the outcome here depends largely on two things: To what extent do you buy the magic square variation - and to what extent do you buy Bochini.
Both teams are very strong and there's nothing very wrong with the balance of either side as far as I'm concerned. I'm not entirely sold on the Bonhof-Falcao-Neeskens midfield - but then again I'm not entirely sold on Sammer in what has to be a pretty straightforward DM role either. The latter is an undisputed world beater in his libero role - as a DM he's not that special for my money.
Regarding the team as a variation on Brazil's magic square set-up I'm not fully sold on Rivaldo either. The Eder role is ideally played by someone who drifts wide as a foil of sorts for a player who enters the vacated space as a pure attacker - as a direct threat - like Zico did. Bochini isn't on Zico's level in terms of finishing - and Rivaldo is too bloody good for this foil business. Still, I don't want to make too much of this - a variation on a theme is just that, not an effort to replicate.
Lastly there's Souness. I guess he's the third factor determining the outcome. How highly should he be rated? I hated him passionately in his active days - and he's an insufferable twat these days - but he was a very, very good footballer. An absolute beast, in fact - and the role he's given here would suit him perfectly.
Both teams are very strong and there's nothing very wrong with the balance of either side as far as I'm concerned. I'm not entirely sold on the Bonhof-Falcao-Neeskens midfield - but then again I'm not entirely sold on Sammer in what has to be a pretty straightforward DM role either. The latter is an undisputed world beater in his libero role - as a DM he's not that special for my money.
Regarding the team as a variation on Brazil's magic square set-up I'm not fully sold on Rivaldo either. The Eder role is ideally played by someone who drifts wide as a foil of sorts for a player who enters the vacated space as a pure attacker - as a direct threat - like Zico did. Bochini isn't on Zico's level in terms of finishing - and Rivaldo is too bloody good for this foil business. Still, I don't want to make too much of this - a variation on a theme is just that, not an effort to replicate.
Lastly there's Souness. I guess he's the third factor determining the outcome. How highly should he be rated? I hated him passionately in his active days - and he's an insufferable twat these days - but he was a very, very good footballer. An absolute beast, in fact - and the role he's given here would suit him perfectly.
I agree with this. The whole idea of Sammer playing a DM, dropping into the backline to fill in for Passarella is a bit weird. You'd want to free up Sammer to rampage up and down the pitch, he's the one who should be free to put out fires where he sees them and in possession add energy, passing and even goals going forward. I also don't understand how Sammer can take care of Bergkamp here, it basically leaves Souness alone against Neeskens, Falcao and Bonhof? Can't see how Totti and Bochini could offer enough support in defense to free up Sammer to mark Bergkamp here at all.
I've never been a fan of the 4222. I remain of the opinion that it's a way to shoehorn as many number 10s into the team as possible and not a way to maximise the impact of one or maybe two of them. I always prefer the latter. I really like harms' team. I have a bit of a soft spot for Krankl, I think Blokhin will have a better game than any of Theon's attackers in this set-up and I actually like the midfield, I'd probably would have set it up a bit differently though, in a 2-1 way with Bonhof and Falcao behind Neeskens as a sort of hard working, free roaming, attacking CM, but it's a minor issue for me.
Souness should def be rated extremely highly, imo @Chesterlestreet , you're right. An absolute beast of a midfielder and competitor. The Liverpool fans would probably say he was their version of Keane back when they were winning 3 European cups.
Two strong teams but i went for Theon/MJJ. Not sure if Elkjaer is under-rated but i think he'd thrive in this side. With Bochini, Rivaldo and Totti behind, Cafu being Cafu down the right, Sammer and Souness - even Passarella controlling things from deep, it just feels too much for hams' team to cope for 90 minutes and outscore them.
McGrath at his absolute peak was a monster as well. The definition of a brick wall. There's the right mix of technical ability and dogged determination and hard-man, winners mentality in there to see it out.
Two strong teams but i went for Theon/MJJ. Not sure if Elkjaer is under-rated but i think he'd thrive in this side. With Bochini, Rivaldo and Totti behind, Cafu being Cafu down the right, Sammer and Souness - even Passarella controlling things from deep, it just feels too much for hams' team to cope for 90 minutes and outscore them.
McGrath at his absolute peak was a monster as well. The definition of a brick wall. There's the right mix of technical ability and dogged determination and hard-man, winners mentality in there to see it out.
Too bad that they're playing against the pub team, it could've been an exiting game if they were to face their equals
I'm not really sure what you mean mate - That's exactly what Sammer is doing. Hence the tactical arrows showing his movement both forwards and backwards.
And I'm surprised you have that view now when I remember you explaining things quite differently when you had Sammer in a previous draft https://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafe-sheep-draft-balu-vs-polaroid.385702/
I'm not too sure, how his role in this team - pushing ahead of the backline, joining the midfield battle and patrolling the area of Harm's most creative player in Bergkamp, is very different to your team when you had him in a similar position with instructions to limit Zidane.
Sammer has the exact same free role - in your own words, he is where he's needed. And in this team he is needed to watch the area in front of the centre backs.
As for the covering for Passarella point I made three or four long posts on that situation where I explained that it does not happen very often - You can watch the games and see that it doesn't happen much, so no Sammer would not be constantly filling in for Passarella.
What I have said is that on the odd occassions it does happen to come about then Sammer is perfect cover for him. I can only think of Rijkaard since the 50's who could offer the same seamless protection.
Too bad that they're playing against the pub team, it could've been an exiting game if they were to face their equals
Sorry mate! I did say these are two strong teams. Just explaining why I voted for MJJ/Theon.
I do like your side but in these drafts it's always knit picking to try and find a winner.
No worries, just having fun here
I had two more CMs though and wasn't up against another 3 great CMs after limiting Zidane's influence. I played an overall defensive line-up with only 3 attackers, all 3 of them contributing defensively with 2 additional CMs to Sammer's libero role, both comfortable to play a temporarily holding role and 2 centerbacks staying deep all the time. Sammer had a lot more freedom in my set-up than he has in yours.
If Pol played with only 3 attacking players back then, I would have argued differently and it would have influenced Sammer's role quite a bit. I've still no idea how you're going to defend against Neeskens and Falcao when Sammer is on Bergkamp, which is in my opinion a bad idea.
I don't think any of that changes the fact that Sammer was effectively operating in very similar positions for both teams - I've posted some of your quotes and there were more which explained it very clearly. You made some excellent points in fact, that in certain situations a libero pushing forward is very similar to a modern defensive midfielder. But anyway, in both this team and your team Sammer was moving ahead of the centre backs with instructions to keep an eye on the most creative player of the other team.
There is a difference in that Sammer had more freedom to get forward in your team - but I don't see this as even a small issue. Sammer has a tougher job defensively here with lots of movement to cover against, Bergkamp to limit, Neeskens arriving late. More is asked of him defensively in this team. I can't see how this is a bad thing, Sammer's talents are primarily defensive and not offensive - in his peak years at Dortmund he only scored 13 goals in four seasons. Totti and Bochini offer more offensively than Sammer ever would. I don't see it as a problem that one of the best defensive players of the last 20 years is being asked to focus on defense.
The arrows were put on Sammer to specifically show a free role in which he can move around the pitch as and where he is needed. Despite the responsibility defensively there is no question that he will get on the ball here to initiate attacks and at times push up. Great players can do that - Keane for instance. Souness was better as a box to box player but he is perfectly capable of covering Sammer and in Passarella and Paul McGrath there is rock solid protection in behind.
Thing is that it's a bit hard to see harms' midfield in full attacking flow here without him taking considerable risks: His defense is lighter than his opponent's to begin with and they're up against four very tricky attackers. How will his fullbacks* behave when Falcao and Neeskens join the attack?
You don't want a breakdown situation where that attacking quartet find themselves in an outright contest with two CBs plus Bonhof. That won't end well.
* Both of whom are decidedly offensive by nature, needless to say.
You don't want a breakdown situation where that attacking quartet find themselves in an outright contest with two CBs plus Bonhof. That won't end well.
* Both of whom are decidedly offensive by nature, needless to say.
Fair enough. You kinda lose that 'it seems like he's everywhere, almost like you're playing with 12 men' - thing which always was part of the Sammer experience when I watched him at his peak. I do agree that you put him to work in defense, hell of a job you ask of him here and he's probably one of very few players who could pull it off.
He doesn't need both Falcao and Neeskens to join the attack, one of them is enough with the other one spraying balls from a deeper position, it'll cause more problems up front than problems at the back in my opinion. I agree though that there's a lot of room to exploit on the wings, with runs in behind the fullbacks, but I'd say that's a problem for both teams.
Only just had time to catch up and try wrap my head around this.
A few points:
@harms I still don't get the Falcão positioning, it doesn't sit right with me at all. The simple fact is I can see that defence holding its own against your attack, the only clear danger coming from Kaltz' crosses, but both Passarella and McGrath were terrific int he air and Peter Schmeichel is in goal. I know you've explained the way you see Bonhof playing differently, but I don't get the logic of not just sticking him there except to bring a playmaker deeper. The teamsheet doesn't tell me the same story as various clarifications and it really puts me off tbh. You need Falcao clearly unshackled, which he isn't here.
@Theon what strikes me is your offence should be able to get the better of harms' defence more than him yours. I wouldn't worry about width. On the right Cafú is the better player relative to Carlos and, while Rodríguez is no worldie Rivaldo sure is. What makes harms very competitive here is his midfield, where he has an additional body most of the time (if badly positioned IMO). For all my love of Bochini, it is very likely he isn't doing it for you at all votes-wise and, personally, I think you are a bit top heavy in players who contribute little to recovery. I think you need to drop him really and add Campbell to the defence so that Sammer is permanently a midfielder and Passarella can push up at will and deal with Bergkamp instead. It's straight-forward and it will probably let Souness be more expansive than currently.
Something like this:
@Edgar Allan Pillow , isn't harms effectively playing a 4-4-2 diamond? How does all that shit work really? There's four at the back, a midfield trio with an advanced playmaker ahead and two strikers. 4-4-2 diamond if I ever saw one.
A few points:
@harms I still don't get the Falcão positioning, it doesn't sit right with me at all. The simple fact is I can see that defence holding its own against your attack, the only clear danger coming from Kaltz' crosses, but both Passarella and McGrath were terrific int he air and Peter Schmeichel is in goal. I know you've explained the way you see Bonhof playing differently, but I don't get the logic of not just sticking him there except to bring a playmaker deeper. The teamsheet doesn't tell me the same story as various clarifications and it really puts me off tbh. You need Falcao clearly unshackled, which he isn't here.
@Theon what strikes me is your offence should be able to get the better of harms' defence more than him yours. I wouldn't worry about width. On the right Cafú is the better player relative to Carlos and, while Rodríguez is no worldie Rivaldo sure is. What makes harms very competitive here is his midfield, where he has an additional body most of the time (if badly positioned IMO). For all my love of Bochini, it is very likely he isn't doing it for you at all votes-wise and, personally, I think you are a bit top heavy in players who contribute little to recovery. I think you need to drop him really and add Campbell to the defence so that Sammer is permanently a midfielder and Passarella can push up at will and deal with Bergkamp instead. It's straight-forward and it will probably let Souness be more expansive than currently.
Something like this:
@Edgar Allan Pillow , isn't harms effectively playing a 4-4-2 diamond? How does all that shit work really? There's four at the back, a midfield trio with an advanced playmaker ahead and two strikers. 4-4-2 diamond if I ever saw one.
@antohan isnt it kinda similar though? Instead of having paseralla push up, we have upgraded our defense(replacing campbell) and sammer has more defensive responsibilities so at the end of the game the average position of all will almost be the same.
While souness does have a bit more defensive responsibility in our line up, that is offset by having sammer bochini in front of him.
I like the front trio behind our striker as all three of them are very comfortable retaining possession and wont get harried off the ball, which I feel is crucial in this match. With two strong teams and two strong midfields its vital not to lose the ball. As it is, I feel our midfield offers more protection and if the front three can retain possession while creating chances we should win this one.
While souness does have a bit more defensive responsibility in our line up, that is offset by having sammer bochini in front of him.
I like the front trio behind our striker as all three of them are very comfortable retaining possession and wont get harried off the ball, which I feel is crucial in this match. With two strong teams and two strong midfields its vital not to lose the ball. As it is, I feel our midfield offers more protection and if the front three can retain possession while creating chances we should win this one.
@Theon, the whole concept of Sammer covering Passarella is completely spastic. A big part of the libero's advantage is adding a man in midfiield and confusing the markers (drop Sammer or let Passarella roam freely?). The moment one goes up and the other down you've lost that and it becomes a bit ridiculous to have them going up and down when a pass and each staying where he is would suffice.
It's odd, I don't like the whole Brazil magic square theme either, not sure what the obsession is with it. Look at the clip in the previous page and you see a lot of how terribly fragil it was when it failed and was dealt with properly.
I still think harms would have a real hard time scoring here, but had I seen Falcão rampaging forward with Neeskens with Bonhof as DM my lote would be long gone there.
It's odd, I don't like the whole Brazil magic square theme either, not sure what the obsession is with it. Look at the clip in the previous page and you see a lot of how terribly fragil it was when it failed and was dealt with properly.
I still think harms would have a real hard time scoring here, but had I seen Falcão rampaging forward with Neeskens with Bonhof as DM my lote would be long gone there.
I don't get it either. There's no real tactical concept behind it, it's all about shoehorning more creative players than you need into the team and hoping that individual class prevails.
How can it possibly be the same? You have an entire additional defender, you no longer need Sammer to drop as cover, which makes zero sense, Passarella can really push up and go all the way to the box as libero if he wants, he can also pick up Bergkamp meaning Sammer is on Neeskens (Neeskens currently looks completely on the loose to me).
The difference is massive, absolutely massive. I would then have confidence that 1. you won't concede, 2. you will have far more control in midfield (as in, won't be run over), 3. will still score.
It's a no-brainer really.
If you can change falcao and bonhof and post it here, I would change my formation - can't do it from the phone.
I don't see it as a diamond though, I have three midfielders and three forwards, all interchangeable, it's 4-3-3 for my money. Eap should be the judge of it anyway
I don't see it as a diamond though, I have three midfielders and three forwards, all interchangeable, it's 4-3-3 for my money. Eap should be the judge of it anyway
BTW, the change of tone is the first post with the teamsheet was written eight hours ago, before I fell asleep on my laptop. Busy day yesterday. Wake up and see nothing has changed
Will do.
It's four men at the back, with uber-attacking fullbacks providing width. A deep-sitting playmaker, two CMs who push out to the flanks as well, a link-up player ahead of them and two forwards clearly assigned to attack Kaltz' balls in the box.
If Blokhin's slightly wide positioning and arrow makes this different from 4-4-2 diamond the bonus rule should be dropped altogether.
Could you please elaborate on this? Just curious as to why you aren't convinced by that midfield.
I'm not too convinced about playing Sammer and Souness in a more defensive role rather than their more usual dynamic role. They are great defensively but you aren't fully utilizing their talents in a relatively more static and more disciplined roles. You'd probably get up to 70% of what they have to offer. Esp with 4 offensive players who aren't going to contribute defensively. I would suggest dropping one of Totti/Bochini tbh. The antohan suggestion seems good to me. Free up Pasarella, Sammer and Souness whilst adding a bit more fluidity to your set-up.
Personally don't buy statements that you don't have enough width. If a team with feckin Cafu, Rodriguez, Rivaldo and a younger more mobile Totti is struggling for effective players in wider areas, then I don't know what to say.
Thanks! @Edgar Allan Pillow change my formation please when the picture will be in the tgread
I can see your point here. I do still think that Bergkamp is in a more forward position, but, again, it's for EAP to decide, I won't protest if he would decide that this is a diamond
Looks okay, thanks. Now this is a diamond though, if I ever saw one
Oh, I'm loosing anyway. Don't really understand why, feel sorry for Moyes now
Basically what anto has said - I don't like the roles and Bonhof's in particular just strikes me as too elaborate. The proposed change - in which Bonhof becomes a designated DM, pure and simple - is a clear improvement.
My other problem with it, in the context of this particular match, is that defensively it is light-ish, what with a back four featuring two highly offensive fullbacks. The magic square may not be to everyone's taste, but like it or not Theon/MJJ have four attackers up there who will be more than a handful for harms' defense proper.
Theon/MJJ field offensive fullbacks too - but their CB pairing is stronger and they have Sammer in front of them (one may question his role, as I have done myself, but his defensive prowess is certainly not in question).
EDIT Having read your post again, I get the impression you address me as the manager of the team. Which I was, sort of, at one point - but not anymore!