The real problem in Europe

Originally posted by Dans:
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Anyways, why have the Arse been so abysmal in Europe then folks?</strong><hr></blockquote>

1) No bottle

2) They started to believe their own hype, e.g. starting to talk about winning the treble in February

3) Poor away form

4) Unlucky with the group
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I thought they played a little like we did : rampant in some games - Depo and Leverkusen at home and almost totally inept in others - the match away at Juve.

It's funny, and probably totally irrelevant, but generally speaking the Arse play well at home and badly away and with us it almost seems to be the other way around, more so when the game is important.
 
So does nobody even remotely subscribe to my initial idea that our teams are "failing" in Europe because of the English style of play that we employ then? (and make no mistake we do, even in Europe - we are all clearly identifiable as English Premiership teams in terms of how we play).
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>I thought they played a little like we did : rampant in some games - Depo and Leverkusen at home and almost totally inept in others - the match away at Juve.

It's funny, and probably totally irrelevant, but generally speaking the Arse play well at home and badly away and with us it almost seems to be the other way around, more so when the game is important.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They were crap away vs Juve, but would have gone out anyway..it was a weird match

Rampant vs Depo?
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>So does nobody even remotely subscribe to my initial idea that our teams are "failing" in Europe because of the English style of play that we employ then? (and make no mistake we do, even in Europe - we are all clearly identifiable as English Premiership teams in terms of how we play).</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't.

It wasn't the style that let us down

It was a mixture of having too many players off form and not winning the midfield battle -&gt; see my comment earlier about second balls.

No matter what system and style you employ, it doesn't help when your passing is bad, key players are playing badly and not winning duels.
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Originally posted by Davo:
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Rampant vs Depo?</strong><hr></blockquote>

In the 2-0 away match we were yes.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>So does nobody even remotely subscribe to my initial idea that our teams are "failing" in Europe because of the English style of play that we employ then? (and make no mistake we do, even in Europe - we are all clearly identifiable as English Premiership teams in terms of how we play).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, but no, english teams have done very well in the CL for the last couple of years. Real play a very similar style of game to us, and Bayer do too. Bayern are probably the only side which doesn't, but thats them for you. I'm glad that Real whipped them.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
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Sorry, but no, english teams have done very well in the CL for the last couple of years. Real play a very similar style of game to us, and Bayer do too. Bayern are probably the only side which doesn't, but thats them for you. I'm glad that Real whipped them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, but clear that up will you please?

English teams have done well in europe for the last couple of years?

You really think so?
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Sorry, but clear that up will you please?

English teams have done well in europe for the last couple of years?

You really think so?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Reasonable well:

This season: 1 semi and 1 quarter final
Last season: 1 semi and 1 quarter final
1999/2000: 2 quarter finals
1998/1999: Winner

I think only Spain, and possibly Germany, can match that.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>I think only Spain, and possibly Germany, can match that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually I think you'll find they better it. That was my whole point, we need to reach their level and be up there with those two. We have the players, but we aren't quite up there, yet we are so close. We can be better than them but we are not at the moment and I don't think it can be blamed on luck.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Sorry, but clear that up will you please?

English teams have done well in europe for the last couple of years?

You really think so?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats why we have 4 teams through each year now. We had 3 teams through to the second phase, equal with spain. Two teams in the quarters, one in the semis. Last year was the same, but with Leeds rather than us in the semi's. Only Spain is comparable.
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Originally posted by Dans:
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Actually I think you'll find they better it. That was my whole point, we need to reach their level and be up there with those two. We have the players, but we aren't quite up there, yet we are so close. We can be better than them but we are not at the moment and I don't think it can be blamed on luck.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's simple, Real have done better than us because they have better players

Bayern have done better than us because they've combined a group of good players with a boring, defensive type of football - I hope we won't copy that!
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
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Thats why we have 4 teams through each year now. We had 3 teams through to the second phase, equal with spain. Two teams in the quarters, one in the semis. Last year was the same, but with Leeds rather than us in the semi's. Only Spain is comparable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Germany is comparable too - it's only as of next year that they are down to 3 places. Funnily enough Italy has 4 places next year although the top two only qualify directly.
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and you should know that liverpool won uefa cup last year (beating barcelona and AS Rome) Arsenal was in the uefa cup final 2000 ; Chelsea won the Cup winners cup 1998. English clubs did very well in the last years in europe. Only Spain was better. (thats why we`ve won the fourth Cl place)
and to call United a failure in europe is laughable.
3 quarterfinals
2 semifinals
1 win
is a very good run. Only Real was better. Bayern was similar successful.
We played very good this season in europe. We missed with becks and keano our best players, but with a little bit of luck (which you need to win the CL like 1999) we would be in the final.

And Real is despite what you think not the unbeatable super team. They`ve lost the spanish league and cup. They were only once in the last 5 years Spanish champions.
And were incredible lucky against barcelona in the first leg. They were totally outplayed as you would call it ( barcelona should have been 3-0 up at time)
So I don`t understand the whole fuss. United was the best team in england in the last years and together with Bayern the second best in Europe. I don`t think this is bad.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
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Germany is comparable too - it's only as of next year that they are down to 3 places. Funnily enough Italy has 4 places next year although the top two only qualify directly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but Germany haven't done as well in reaching the second phase and quarter finals and semis as England have for the last few seasons. This year obviously they had only two in the second phase, two in the qf's, one in the semi's and one in the final. Italy did piss poor, one in the second phase and none any further than that. Spain are the best, but not by that much more than us.
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Originally posted by scorpion_boy_01:
<strong>and you should know that liverpool won uefa cup last year (beating barcelona and AS Rome) Arsenal was in the uefa cup final 2000 ; Chelsea won the Cup winners cup 1998. English clubs did very well in the last years in europe. Only Spain was better. (thats why we`ve won the fourth Cl place)
and to call United a failure in europe is laughable.
3 quarterfinals
2 semifinals
1 win
is a very good run. Only Real was better. Bayern was similar successful.
We played very good this season in europe. We missed with becks and keano our best players, but with a little bit of luck (which you need to win the CL like 1999) we would be in the final.

And Real is despite what you think not the unbeatable super team. They`ve lost the spanish league and cup. They were only once in the last 5 years Spanish champions.
And were incredible lucky against barcelona in the first leg. They were totally outplayed as you would call it ( barcelona should have been 3-0 up at time)
So I don`t understand the whole fuss. United was the best team in england in the last years and together with Bayern the second best in Europe. I don`t think this is bad.</strong><hr></blockquote>
very true
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"Germany is comparable too - it's only as of next year that they are down to 3 places"

nonsense like your whole post. England had more points in the uefa ranking than germany in the last 3 years. In fact they lose less points (the 5 years old) than germany and italy next season. So England will be second behind spain in the 5 year ranking at the start of the next season. Source uefa.com if you don´t believe.
 
Another point: You think that the reason for the failure of english clubs is the typical english style. As I wrote I don`t agree that english clubs were poor in europe in the last years.
But for your argument: In fact united, liverpool and arsenal have all very different styles and you could easily name arsenal a half french team (with a french manager and many french players but hardly an english player in midfield or offensive.)
 
great topic.

Something I find curious, since Dans is talking about the English style of play and tactics and adaptability of both and how they don't fit in with being successful in Europe, why then have Italy done utterly crap in recent years?

I think we'll all agree that Serie A is the most tactically and technically accomplished league with possibly the best spread of world class players in europe yet they have totally struggled in the Champions' League after years of dominating.

Why? Is their style of play suddenly unsuitable for european football despite their recent domination or are all their teams just going through a really unlucky phase? ;)
 
That baffles me too Niall. I wonder how much it might be to do wit ego, expectation, reputations to live up too etc etc


Scorpian Boy - chill out. No need to get angry and start throwing your toys out of your pram. We're having a discussion. Simple.
 
I take that back scorpian boy although I'm not sure I was speaking nonsense. You make good points and I agree with what you're saying. My initial post and this thread was perhaps inspired somewhat by Keano's outburst but also by what I see as somewhat predictable play by United. I think that teams are finding us out. It started in Europe and now IMO the Arse and the Scouse have too. We haven't done well against them nor the very best in Europe for a while. I'm not saying we have had anything other than a good run in Europe in recent years and neither did I term our record a failure - I used the word in context. Now my point is ultimately, we have the players to do well, we have arguably one of the strongets teams in the world on paper. Now I know matches aren't won on paper but why can we not make it count when it matters in the latter rounds of the CL? My point is, that ity isn't purely down to bad luck. Some posters have mentioned bad performance and I agree but I suspect there is an element of the English style to blame. Arsenal and Liverpool both have their mass of foreigners, but generally play, as they have to, in an English style - Liverpool perhaps less so than us or the arse. But it can't be good having to face teams whose style of play is vastly different from that which we face on a week in week out basis in the Premiership. By that I mean we lack somewhat as a result of playing in the premiership week in week out against the hit and hope merchants - the wimbledons of the premiership for example.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
[QB]That baffles me too Niall. I wonder how much it might be to do wit[QB]<hr></blockquote>

I never knew a sense of humour was a requirement for success in europe, arf arf arf!

Complacency has perhaps set in temporarily in Italy. They were so far ahead of the other top leagues, winning the majority of european trophies and suddenly thanks to mostly TV money the other leagues have caught up, competing for the best players, while Serie A has sort of stood still and even lost some of its best players to their rival leagues - Zidane, Veron....Boksic! ;)

I don't really keep tabs on Serie A these days, but they must be going through a serious period of self analysis over there because their performances in europe have been nothing short of brutal!

Amazing how things seem to go in cycles isn't it! Italy are where England were about 5-10 years ago.
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Originally posted by Niall:
<strong>great topic.

Something I find curious, since Dans is talking about the English style of play and tactics and adaptability of both and how they don't fit in with being successful in Europe, why then have Italy done utterly crap in recent years?

I think we'll all agree that Serie A is the most tactically and technically accomplished league with possibly the best spread of world class players in europe yet they have totally struggled in the Champions' League after years of dominating.

Why? Is their style of play suddenly unsuitable for european football despite their recent domination or are all their teams just going through a really unlucky phase? ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

And the Italian clubs who've done well the last 10-12 years, AC Milan and Juve played in a typical English style. Especially AC Milan; 4-4-2, high pressure, zonal defence...
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Originally posted by Niall:
<strong>

I never knew a sense of humour was a requirement for success in europe, arf arf arf!

Complacency has perhaps set in temporarily in Italy. They were so far ahead of the other top leagues, winning the majority of european trophies and suddenly thanks to mostly TV money the other leagues have caught up, competing for the best players, while Serie A has sort of stood still and even lost some of its best players to their rival leagues - Zidane, Veron....Boksic! ;)

I don't really keep tabs on Serie A these days, but they must be going through a serious period of self analysis over there because their performances in europe have been nothing short of brutal!

Amazing how things seem to go in cycles isn't it! Italy are where England were about 5-10 years ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Italian teams don't have any consistency, each year it seems to be a new manager, new backroom, half the first team changed - whereas us, and Bayern, have had very little destabilisation to our clubs each year - apart from this year perhaps, which would explain why both sides didn't do so well. If you can call quarters and semis not so well. Some clubs (Leeds) would love to be in our situation.

There is also a tactical element to this, and that is the fact that high-pressure, high-tempo, closing down fast game negates the Italian slow cerebral game, just not giving it enough time to think. This is what made United so good, the speed of thought, the one touch pass and move game. Arsenal this season have imo been better at that than us, but they were complacent and arrogant at the last hurdle. Hopefully that is how it will prove tonight! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
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Neil, complacency and arrogance should never be allowed on the playing field. If both are evident then surely the manager is to blame?
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Neil, complacency and arrogance should never be allowed on the playing field. If both are evident then surely the manager is to blame?</strong><hr></blockquote>
:D Alex might not want to give the press that story, but I don't mind mentioning it. His comments in the last few days have been extremely arrogant - football is a funny old game as they say, and stranger things have happened before. I never really expected Spurs to do Arsenal a favour by beating Liverpool, so Everton could do the same by a strange twist of fate.
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hate to burst your bubble Neil, but we haven't even played let alone beaten the gooners yet!! Worry about Everton throwing a spanner in their works if and when we do, not before.

I'd be more concerned with the fact that we could very well see the arse celebrating winning the league title in Old Trafford tonight! :eek:

A gut wrenching, sickening thought if ever there was one....
 
Originally posted by Niall:
<strong>hate to burst your bubble Neil, but we haven't even played let alone beaten the gooners yet!! Worry about Everton throwing a spanner in their works if and when we do, not before.

I'd be more concerned with the fact that we could very well see the arse celebrating winning the league title in Old Trafford tonight! :eek:

A gut wrenching, sickening thought if ever there was one....</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know, I know... I was trying not to think about it! :mad:

But its arrogant all the same to assume that neither us nor everton could deny them the points they need.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
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I know, I know... I was trying not to think about it! :mad:

But its arrogant all the same to assume that neither us nor everton could deny them the points they need.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's actually common sense to think that Everton won't deny them the points.
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Originally posted by Dans:
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It's actually common sense to think that Everton won't deny them the points.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its one thing acknowledging the form guide, and rivalries, and relative ability of teams, but if that was the case then the Football Pools would be easy. I didn't expect us to lose to the lower teams that we did this season but football has a habit of being unpredictable.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Keep dreaming Neil ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>
It is possible, albeit highly unfeckinglikely. :( I am very worried that they'll get the draw tonight, or worse, a win. I think they have the psychological advantage, better spirit in their team at the moment. Then again, we often play better when we're pissed off.
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>It's highly unlikely, but I did put £50 on us winning the title yesterday ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>
What odds did you get?
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Originally posted by Dans:
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Bayern are very frugal when it comes to spending money. Why do they do so well?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You brought up an interesting point.

Bayern has done very well in building their squad through a combination of bargain buys (mostly) and snapping up youngsters with potential.

This is something lacking with our current buying policy - I don't think we are doing enough with the bargain-hunting especially given the fact that we are on a restricted budget.
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Originally posted by lchk:
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I don't think we are doing enough with the bargain-hunting especially given the fact that we are on a restricted budget.</strong><hr></blockquote>


How many BARGAINS do you think could have improved our team..?
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