The real problem in Europe

[Dans]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
We need to be more organised and disciplined, which requires good coaching. I hope we get someone like Peter Taylor.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This suggests that the failing lies with Ferguson then?

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

In the second leg we had by far the higher number of chances.

So they were lucky.</strong><hr></blockquote>ALthough I fully share your frustration JSV, you cannot afford to concede 2 at home and always expect to score away.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

I agree. I really feel tactics have been our downfall this season.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Isn't that what Dans was on about in his first post?

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by sunny:
<strong>DOes that mean that f*** Bosnich had a point?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, because he said Fergie was tactically inept which is Bollox. Noone's perfect though...

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

In the second leg we had by far the higher number of chances.

So they were lucky.</strong><hr></blockquote>


How?

For having defenders on the line?

You were lucky that OGS's corner flag shot took a wicked deflection in the first leg...

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Isn't that what Dans was on about in his first post?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, Dans feels we have not adapted to the pace and style (or adaptibility) of the continental game.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

In the second leg we had by far the higher number of chances.

So they were lucky.</strong><hr></blockquote>

With whatever respect I have for you jsv ( ), I think this is a somewhat blind view of the games with Leverkusen. They deserved their vistory no doubt. There's no point in clinging on to chances that were cleared of the line. The argument that each of those chances was poorly finished would apply too.

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


How?

For having defenders on the line?

You were lucky that OGS's corner flag shot took a wicked deflection in the first leg...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but that doesn't take away the fact that in the second leg we were far more unluckier not to score from the 4 shots that could so easily have gone in and sent us through.

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

With whatever respect I have for you jsv ( ), I think this is a somewhat blind view of the games with Leverkusen. They deserved their vistory no doubt. There's no point in clinging on to chances that were cleared of the line. The argument that each of those chances was poorly finished would apply too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Get rid of it you silly cnut (whatever respect you have for me), but I think we had the better chances over the two legs whereas they had the most possession. I can't see any flaws in our ability to adapt to the European game, and in fact feel the Leverkusen game was a perfect example of how good we are at it. Think back to our first few years in the CL at OT and when we used to have loads of possession and then, bang, we concede a goal. Against Leverkusen we were doing exactly the opposite to them, with them having the ball and us defending stoutly and having 4 chances off the line, any one of which would have sent us through. That was unlucky.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

This suggests that the failing lies with Ferguson then?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No manager has every trait to perfection, SAF is best at many things and has won enough trophies to prove it. But tactical acumen is not his strongest point, and nor is coaching, it was only earlier this season that he started getting more involved with the coaching again, because things were going wrong and previously he could rely on a really excellent coach in McClaren (just look how organised 'boro were when they played against us - and they've got crap players). We're not a small club that only has a manager, we have a huge setup, and quality coaches, including head coach/assistant manager are a necessary part of that setup. However, I am worried that we might not get someone in, there hasn't been any suggestion from Alex that he will, quite the reverse.

 

[Dans]

Anyone else?

 

[ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC]

Simply put, all our team needs to dominate is a cutting edge. A spark and hunger that has faded in recent years.

Our team can do it all, counter attack, hold the ball, play short, long balls, spread it wide, break through the middle etc. It's not the tactics, its the performances.

Our STRENGTH is our style, which SHOULD be different. It should be fast and furious, no team can live with us when we play like that. So why dont we? Instead we decide to abandon that and go for the slow-slow approach which has seen us try to compete on a tactical level. Which is not our strength.

To play like that again the players need a kick up the backside and we need our 4-4-2. But even at 4-5-1 the players should still play with a spark.

Tactics are not part of the problem. They should play well no matter what tactics we use, as does every other team. i.e. Liverpool chop and change all the time...

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

Get rid of it you silly cnut (whatever respect you have for me), but I think we had the better chances over the two legs whereas they had the most possession. I can't see any flaws in our ability to adapt to the European game, and in fact feel the Leverkusen game was a perfect example of how good we are at it. Think back to our first few years in the CL at OT and when we used to have loads of possession and then, bang, we concede a goal. Against Leverkusen we were doing exactly the opposite to them, with them having the ball and us defending stoutly and having 4 chances off the line, any one of which would have sent us through. That was unlucky.</strong><hr></blockquote>

JSV, as I said I fully agree with your frustration, I cannot agree that we were unlucky. They scored twice at Old Trafford and both times when we were ahead. Had we defended better in the first leg...Those "unlucky" chances would not have mattered. I was at the game for the return leg and seriously other than Keano who was really gearing on the guys, our performance was mediocre and not "unlucky"

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

Get rid of it you silly cnut (whatever respect you have for me), but I think we had the better chances over the two legs whereas they had the most possession. I can't see any flaws in our ability to adapt to the European game, and in fact feel the Leverkusen game was a perfect example of how good we are at it. Think back to our first few years in the CL at OT and when we used to have loads of possession and then, bang, we concede a goal. Against Leverkusen we were doing exactly the opposite to them, with them having the ball and us defending stoutly and having 4 chances off the line, any one of which would have sent us through. That was unlucky.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The performance in both Bayer games was a pale shadow compared to the performance in both games against Deportivo. We rely on luck too much, we shouldn't need to.

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Simply put, all our team needs to dominate is a cutting edge. A spark and hunger that has faded in recent years.

Our team can do it all, counter attack, hold the ball, play short, long balls, spread it wide, break through the middle etc. It's not the tactics, its the performances.

Our STRENGTH is our style, which SHOULD be different. It should be fast and furious, no team can live with us when we play like that. So why dont we? Instead we decide to abandon that and go for the slow-slow approach which has seen us try to compete on a tactical level. Which is not our strength.

To play like that again the players need a kick up the backside and we need our 4-4-2. But even at 4-5-1 the players should still play with a spark.

Tactics are not part of the problem. They should play well no matter what tactics we use, as does every other team. i.e. Liverpool chop and change all the time...</strong><hr></blockquote>Great post!! However I do feel that Ruud is too much on his own with a 4 5 1 and with a 4 4 2 with Ole UNited have had the spark. Without Beckham out and Giigs in the middle we had 5 through the middle and frankly Bayer had it sewn.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

Yes, but that doesn't take away the fact that in the second leg we were far more unluckier not to score from the 4 shots that could so easily have gone in and sent us through.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So

overall you feel that over the 2 ties you were unlucky not to progress?

Despite the fact that they outplayed you in both games?

They had chances they didn't take as well...

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Simply put, all our team needs to dominate is a cutting edge. A spark and hunger that has faded in recent years.

Our team can do it all, counter attack, hold the ball, play short, long balls, spread it wide, break through the middle etc. It's not the tactics, its the performances.

Our STRENGTH is our style, which SHOULD be different. It should be fast and furious, no team can live with us when we play like that. So why dont we? Instead we decide to abandon that and go for the slow-slow approach which has seen us try to compete on a tactical level. Which is not our strength.

To play like that again the players need a kick up the backside and we need our 4-4-2. But even at 4-5-1 the players should still play with a spark.

Tactics are not part of the problem. They should play well no matter what tactics we use, as does every other team. i.e. Liverpool chop and change all the time...</strong><hr></blockquote>Great post!! However I do feel that Ruud is too much on his own with a 4 5 1 and with a 4 4 2 with Ole UNited have had the spark. Without Beckham out and Giigs in the middle we had 5 through the middle and frankly Bayer had it sewn.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Despite the fact that they outplayed you in both games?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

OUTPLAYED???

I think they shaded it just over the two games, but OUTPLAYED us..

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

No, Dans feels we have not adapted to the pace and style (or adaptibility) of the continental game.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Surely the ability to adapt youre style and pace is linked with tactics?

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by sunny:
<strong>Great post!! However I do feel that Ruud is too much on his own with a 4 5 1 and with a 4 4 2 with Ole UNited have had the spark. Without Beckham out and Giigs in the middle we had 5 through the middle and frankly Bayer had it sewn.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You raise a good point there - attacking through the middle against an organised defense, which german teams so often have, is rarely going to bring success. We really missed Becks against them, and losing Giggs from the wing and not being able to replace him with Fortune meant we couldn't get in behind their defense and fire crosses in. We also only had one striker to hit with passes, and he was surrounded.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

OUTPLAYED???

I think they shaded it just over the two games, but OUTPLAYED us.. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes outplayed..

You know, when the other team plays better than you and prevents you from playing as you would like..

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

One problem I've noticed we've often have had this season is that we're not winning enough second balls.

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
You raise a good point there - attacking through the middle against an organised defense, which german teams so often have, is rarely going to bring success. We really missed Becks against them, and losing Giggs from the wing and not being able to replace him with Fortune meant we couldn't get in behind their defense and fire crosses in. We also only had one striker to hit with passes, and he was surrounded.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was at the game and I admit it was really frustrating to see that they just felt lacking options. ANyway, I hope this serves as a lesson and they sharpen the defense so as to avoid giving away goals at home. Well this season it was defensive performances at home that have cost us Europe and in the Premie OHHH SOrry

Well I wont say more as I still have a ligering hope that we screw the arse

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Yes outplayed..

You know, when the other team plays better than you and prevents you from playing as you would like..</strong><hr></blockquote>

We obviously use the term outplayed differently though; I use it when a team has pissed all over another team and there was no doubt who'd win the game.

You obviously use it for every game when one team has been slightly better than the other team...

Did Spurs outplay you last weekend?

 

[Divine]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Yes outplayed..

You know, when the other team plays better than you and prevents you from playing as you would like..</strong><hr></blockquote>

They deserved to win at OT, we deserved to win in Germany (a result of them playing bad as much as us playing well). Their away display was still better than ours though, so it's fair enough that they went through.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

We obviously use the term outplayed differently though; I use it when a team has pissed all over another team and there was no doubt who'd win the game.

You obviously use it for every game when one team has been slightly better than the other team...

Did Spurs outplay you last weekend?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Christ

Don't spoil what is a good thread by moving on to Liverpool as per usual..

Perhaps we do use outplay differently...who cares?

I reckon Bayer were more than slightly better than you...and that a draw at OT flattered you..

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Christ

Don't spoil what is a good thread by moving on to Liverpool as per usual..

Perhaps we do use outplay differently...who cares?

</strong><hr></blockquote>


It's just that it's so typically you when it comes to Man United;

In a tie that the vast majority of the World saw as quite even, but with a fair outcome, you claim that Man United were outplayed.

Just as when we play well and win, it's usually because the opposition played crap according to you..

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by sunny:
<strong>
I still have a ligering hope that we screw the arse</strong><hr></blockquote>

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>


It's just that it's so typically you when it comes to Man United;

In a tie that the vast majority of the World saw as quite even, but with a fair outcome, you claim that Man United were outplayed.

Just as when we play well and win, it's usually because the opposition played crap according to you..</strong><hr></blockquote>


So now you speak for the vast majority of the world?

Bayer outplayed you at OT and were unlucky to only draw...

The were in control for the majority of the match in Germany..the last 15 minutes they sat back and let you come at them...

So you weren't unlucky as was claimed..

See if you can contribute to a thread that I'm in without following me around looking to pick holes in anything I say....you're not very good at it

 

[Neil Thomson]

This is a good thread, AEBM/Davo can you not have an argument with yourself in this thread please?

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>This is a good thread, AEBM/Davo can you not have an argument with yourself in this thread please? </strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree

You'll have to ask my faithful lapdog to see if he can switch off his loyalty to me for a bit...

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>This is a good thread, AEBM/Davo can you not have an argument with yourself in this thread please? </strong><hr></blockquote>

What's the fun in that?

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


See if you can contribute to a thread that I'm in without following me around looking to pick holes in anything I say....you're not very good at it</strong><hr></blockquote>


Don't flatter yourself

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>


It's just that it's so typically you when it comes to Man United;

In a tie that the vast majority of the World saw as quite even, but with a fair outcome, you claim that Man United were outplayed.

Just as when we play well and win, it's usually because the opposition played crap according to you..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Kinell Boring, I saw it pretty much the way Davo did actually. Seriously, if you want to nagging on like a feckin old women then start another thread about the definition of outplaying in the football forum.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Kinell Boring, I saw it pretty much the way Davo did actually. Seriously, if you want to nagging on like a feckin old women then start another thread about the definition of outplaying in the football forum.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Give's a kiss

 

[Dans]

I'll stick me feckin tongue down your throat if it stops you nagging.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>I'll stick me feckin tongue down your throat if it stops you nagging. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not only are you a grumpy old sod

But a homosexual grumpy old sod <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Not only are you a grumpy old sod

But a homosexual grumpy old sod <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Shut up Grandma.

Anyways, why have the Arse been so abysmal in Europe then folks?

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Shut up Grandma.

Anyways, why have the Arse been so abysmal in Europe then folks?</strong><hr></blockquote>

They haven't been that bad this season really have they..

It was a 'kin tough group...