The real problem in Europe

[Dans]

Is not to do with our players, our manager etc etc It's to do with the fact that English teams still suffer due to our style of play and our inability to adapt when necessary. Sure we will win a couple of real ding dong encounters like we did against Juve, Inter in 99 or Deportivo this year, and now and again we'll see a hammering, even though not always entirely convincing; see The Arse against Leverkusen at home for example. Before you all go off on one, I grant you that most teams competing in European competition do no better than we do.

BUT, there are two teams in the last few seasons who have done well - Bayern and Real. Go back a few more seasons and there was Juventus and AC Milan who dominated European football. In order to be classed as a great European team, which we are not and the Arse, our only rivals in England at present in these stakes who are nowhere near this level, we need to match the achievements of these teams I feel.

Until our teams learn to adapt and are not so reliant on one style of play (I think we have been found out this year, by amongst others, Leverkusen in Europe and the Arse and the Scouse at home) we do not realistically look like rivalling Real or Bayern or indeed AC or Juve as one of the true modern day great teams in Europe. We have the players, there is no doubt about that, but we don't seem to have the sufficient consistency of adapting when required to really stamp our mark on Europe.

I can't see us, nor the Arse, or the Scouse improving sufficiently to reach this level until our game at home changes somewhat to incorporate some of the tactical aspects of the European game. And before anyone counters with the look at the 70's and early 80's Liverpool teams argument, times have changed since then and we have had the very real handicap of the 5 years absence after Heysel.

 

[JSV]

I disagree.

I feel our style is very continental at the moment. I remember last year (or was it the year before) when we beat Anderlecht 5-1 at OT we did it without seemingly breaking a sweat, or even Nonce this year. It was very slow, easy passing but then Bang, and we'd score. IMO, the continental style of play is a wholly counter-attacking one, and us especially have learnt to benefit from this far more than many other English clubs (Scousers and Arse apart) hence our success. I truly believe once you reach the quarters/semis of the CL alot comes down to luck and form on the day, and I think the Leverkusen game was testament to that.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

I thought we played some great stuff in Europe this season

Real have been consistent in Europe the last 5 season simply because they've got some superb players

 

[Dans]

Sorry mate but beating Anderlecht is no real indication of anything other than the gulf which exists between Belgian and English club football. I mentioned AC, Juve, Real and Bayern and in response you mention Anderlecht!!! Next you'll cite a performance against the might of Sturm Graz no doubt.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>Real have been consistent in Europe the last 5 season simply because they've got some superb players</strong><hr></blockquote>

And we don't and haven't had for the last 5 years?

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Sorry mate but beating Anderlecht is no real indication of anything other than the gulf which exists between Belgian and English club football. I mentioned AC, Juve, Real and Bayern and in response you mention Anderlecht!!! Next you'll cite a performance against the might of Sturm Graz no doubt.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We've certainly improved this season on the last two seasons' performances.

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Sorry mate but beating Anderlecht is no real indication of anything other than the gulf which exists between Belgian and English club football. I mentioned AC, Juve, Real and Bayern and in response you mention Anderlecht!!! Next you'll cite a performance against the might of Sturm Graz no doubt.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree again. The CL is no playground, and Anderlecht have disposed of some pretty good teams in the CL .e.g. Lazio. As fro AC and Juve, we have been far more successful than them in the last few years and I feel our standard of play has surpassed or equalled theirs, so I can't see the point of citing their successes from years back. Real and Bayern I explained are very similar to us, and I think there is nothing more than a feather between them, or any team that consistently reaches the knockout stages.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

And we don't and haven't had for the last 5 years?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We have, but overall Real's are even better

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

And we don't and haven't had for the last 5 years?</strong><hr></blockquote>

When it comes to signing players we aren't on the same planet as Real, as is almost every other club in the world.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

I disagree again. The CL is no playground, and Anderlecht have disposed of some pretty good teams in the CL .e.g. Lazio. As fro AC and Juve, we have been far more successful than them in the last few years and I feel our standard of play has surpassed or equalled theirs, so I can't see the point of citing their successes from years back. Real and Bayern I explained are very similar to us, and I think there is nothing more than a feather between them, or any team that consistently reaches the knockout stages.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The CL is no playground - lol. I can't believe you said that.

As for citing AC and Juve, perhaps if you read what I wrote you will understand the citation JSV.

There is more than a feather between Real and us - both have played better than us in Europe over recent times especially so Real. They are both more consistent I feel - ok both have had some bad results, but in the group stages where it doesn't matter - our bad games tend to come in quarters or semis when it really makes the difference.

Furthermore, we've been in one final in four years, they have been in two each and neither looked as unconvincing as we did in the end game.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Next season, Real will probably have a midfield and attack of:

Vieira--Helguera
Figo---Zidane
Raul---Schevchenko

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

When it comes to signing players we aren't on the same planet as Real, as is almost every other club in the world.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So AEBM and JSV, how significantly better really would you say their players are compared to ours?

Is Figo that much better than Beckham?
Is Zidane that much more influential than Keano?
Is Raul (who cost nothing) that much more prolific than Ruud?
Is Hierro (who cost nothing) that much better than Blanc?

I don't think so.

 

[Neil Thomson]

I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that its a lack of adaptability. In fact this season it has been far too much adaptability. I think that to get the best out of a team they need stability, both in personnel and formation.

For example a regular centre back pairing is more reliable than two complete strangers at the back. Our midfield became the best in the world by virtue of having played together for so long, there was that telepathy and trust that allowed creativity to have full reign. Up front in the treble season we had Cole and Yorke, who also had that kind of feel for each other. You need to make the other teams adapt to you.

Real Madrid don't vary their formation much, by and large it is 4-4-2 every time. The same formation we had when we won the CL. This season all that understanding seemed to be destroyed by Alex's tinkering to try and fit Blanc and Veron into the team. In the end I don't think he has managed to this season. Pre-season might help. I hope any new signings are done before the season starts and not in the first few weeks like last year, that was just crazy timing.

I will say that we need a style of play that is effective against a variety of teams. Our style when it works is one of camping around the opposition box and relentlessly attacking them. We usually only do this however in the last 15mins if we're losing or drawing, when our hunger and determination finally show, or throughout the game if we go a goal up against lesser opposition. The reason for this is that it is very risky to do this, due to exposing ourselves to the counter attack.

We need to get back to being the counter-attacking team we were in the early years, we need to learn to draw a team out and then attack at speed, and if the opposition manage to shut the door, to retreat and wait for them to open it again rather than hammering at the door only to be knocked over when they throw it open and counter-attack.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

When it comes to signing players we aren't on the same planet as Real, as is almost every other club in the world.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bayern are very frugal when it comes to spending money. Why do they do so well?

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that its a lack of adaptability. In fact this season it has been far too much adaptability. I think that to get the best out of a team they need stability, both in personnel and formation.

For example a regular centre back pairing is more reliable than two complete strangers at the back. Our midfield became the best in the world by virtue of having played together for so long, there was that telepathy and trust that allowed creativity to have full reign. Up front in the treble season we had Cole and Yorke, who also had that kind of feel for each other. You need to make the other teams adapt to you.

Real Madrid don't vary their formation much, by and large it is 4-4-2 every time. The same formation we had when we won the CL. This season all that understanding seemed to be destroyed by Alex's tinkering to try and fit Blanc and Veron into the team. In the end I don't think he has managed to this season. Pre-season might help. I hope any new signings are done before the season starts and not in the first few weeks like last year, that was just crazy timing.

I will say that we need a style of play that is effective against a variety of teams. Our style when it works is one of camping around the opposition box and relentlessly attacking them. We usually only do this however in the last 15mins if we're losing or drawing, when our hunger and determination finally show, or throughout the game if we go a goal up against lesser opposition. The reason for this is that it is very risky to do this, due to exposing ourselves to the counter attack.

We need to get back to being the counter-attacking team we were in the early years, we need to learn to draw a team out and then attack at speed, and if the opposition manage to shut the door, to retreat and wait for them to open it again rather than hammering at the door only to be knocked over when they throw it open and counter-attack.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Spot on

We've developed this season, as we had to - we'd come stuck and predictable the last two seasons

 

[JSV]

I understand your citation Dans, but find it wierd why you class Bayern who have not been anymore successful than us recently in the CL, as better than us. Bayern have twice been knocked out of the CL in the last 3 years by Real. We beat Bayern in the final, and they then beat us and Real on their way to winning it. In other words, what i'm saying is that the 3 dominant CL teams in the last few years have been us, Bayern and Real (with Real at the apex). Real are the AC of today and that is because they spend £40-£50m quid on single players. We don't have that capability and are on a slightly lower plain than them because of that, but no lower than Bayern.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

So AEBM and JSV, how significantly better really would you say their players are compared to ours?

Is Figo that much better than Beckham?
Is Zidane that much more influential than Keano?
Is Raul (who cost nothing) that much more prolific than Ruud?
Is Hierro (who cost nothing) that much better than Blanc?

I don't think so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not THAT much better, but better

Just like Real is better than Man United, but not THAT much better - in fact, IMO we were the second best team in the competition overall this season.

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Bayern are very frugal when it comes to spending money. Why do they do so well?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think up to the £28m on Veron (and £19 on RVN) we weren't throwing that much more money than them.

 

[Divine]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that its a lack of adaptability. In fact this season it has been far too much adaptability. I think that to get the best out of a team they need stability, both in personnel and formation.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with this. This season, we've seen too many changes from game to game.
We've adjusted to the strengths of the opposition too much, rather than acknowledging and playing to the strengths of our own team...

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Not THAT much better, but better

Just like Real is better than Man United, but not THAT much better - in fact, IMO we were the second best team in the competition overall this season.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd tend to agree with this, as well as having a better defence.

 

[JSV]

Big post from Dans coming up...

 

[Dans]

Neil, perhaps I haven't made myself as clear as I should have. I'm not talking about switching the formation every game. I'm talking about tactics, about changing the pace of the game about doing what Leverkusen did against us in the match at OT when necessary (sit back but have every one of their players trying to deny us space). We play every game like the other is what I mean, we don't seem to be able to change the pace of a game if necessary. I'm not sure we are good at playing the patient game when necessary. My point was that the style of English game that we play week in week out is not condusive to playing the best European teams and getting the better of them when it matters.

As for Bayern JSV, believe me they spend nothing in comparison even to us, even before we shelled out for Veron and Ruud. They have been in two finals to our one, they have been in quarters and semis every year for a while now. They have been IMO sufficiently more consistant than we have for me to begrudgingly place them above us on CL performance terms.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong> We play every game like the other is what I mean, we don't seem to be able to change the pace of a game if necessary. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You didn't watch us away to Bayern and Deportivo then?

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Neil, perhaps I haven't made myself as clear as I should have. I'm not talking about switching the formation every game. I'm talking about tactics, about changing the pace of the game about doing what Leverkusen did against us in the match at OT when necessary (sit back but have every one of their players trying to deny us space). We play every game like the other is what I mean, we don't seem to be able to change the pace of a game if necessary. I'm not sure we are good at playing the patient game when necessary. My point was that the style of English game that we play week in week out is not condusive to playing the best European teams and getting the better of them when it matters.

As for Bayern JSV, believe me they spend nothing in comparison even to us, even before we shelled out for Veron and Ruud. They have been in two finals to our one, they have been in quarters and semis every year for a while now. They have been IMO sufficiently more consistant than we have for me to begrudgingly place them above us on CL performance terms.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, thats an aspect of what I was saying about learning to sit back at times and keep the ball. Something odd defensively though that I have noted, that in my observations is an almost certain predictor of conceding goal, is when we sit back when we haven't got the ball. We start to zonally mark, but at a distance of about 4-5 yards, thus allowing them to play their own passing game and get shots in from afar. When we are at our best we give them practically no room, like Bayer did against us. We need our coaches to improve our consistency at doing this. We also need to improve our youth setup because our current class of '92 have hit their peak and now have only one direction to go in, down. I'd like to see us buying up young foreign talents more, in the U-19 bracket. I do think that some aspects of our club have stagnated, which I think has been due to Alex thinking he was about to retire. I hope now that he is staying for 3 more years he will shake up the scouting, coaching and youth setup.

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Neil, perhaps I haven't made myself as clear as I should have. I'm not talking about switching the formation every game. I'm talking about tactics, about changing the pace of the game about doing what Leverkusen did against us in the match at OT when necessary (sit back but have every one of their players trying to deny us space). We play every game like the other is what I mean, we don't seem to be able to change the pace of a game if necessary. I'm not sure we are good at playing the patient game when necessary. My point was that the style of English game that we play week in week out is not condusive to playing the best European teams and getting the better of them when it matters.

As for Bayern JSV, believe me they spend nothing in comparison even to us, even before we shelled out for Veron and Ruud. They have been in two finals to our one, they have been in quarters and semis every year for a while now. They have been IMO sufficiently more consistant than we have for me to begrudgingly place them above us on CL performance terms.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Could it be due to them having a shrewder manager than ours? possibly, but I still think we're understating the element of luck in this. We went out to Real after going over there and not conceding a thing. We then came back and were unfortunate to score an own goal and have to go for it, which left them to counter-attack easily, albeit brilliantly. Against Bayern we were outplyed, pure and simple, as were Real. However, I wouldn't put that loss down to Bayern being able to control the pace of the game as at OT we were certainly the ones in control of that, but we simply has no answer to their resilience, as didn't Figo and Raul and co. Leverkusen was unlucky. I just feel we have surpassed the stage of being naive in europe, but have failed to get the rub of the green in the big games. I really don't see Bayern being a better team than us, managed better maybe, but their trophy haul suggests they are no better.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

You didn't watch us away to Bayern and Deportivo then?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was at the Bayern match. We played 11 men behind the ball, it was one of the dullest games I've seen. We did the job. But you don't have to be a great team to get a result by putting up a 11 man defensive wall. I mentioned Deportivo in my original post and cited that match as one of the few exceptions. It just doesn't happen when we get to the quarters or semis though. My God, it's 8 years in a row or something that we've got to quarter finals in the CL. What I am saying is that we have the players to have reaped more reward from those 8 quarters but haven't? Why? You lot always defend United to the hilt and seem to see very little wrong, it's like you have your heads in the sand. This team could have been a much more successful team. This doesn't mean I'm some dissafected glory supporter who expects to win - it's merely a reflection on the abilities of our players (praise) and the reason why perhaps we haven't done so well in Europe (because of the English style of play). I mentioned the arse and the scouse too, yet none have you has commented on that. Why not? Or are you just gonna tell me we're the greatest and can do nothing wrong again?

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
I agree, thats an aspect of what I was saying about learning to sit back at times and keep the ball. Something odd defensively though that I have noted, that in my observations is an almost certain predictor of conceding goal, is when we sit back when we haven't got the ball. We start to zonally mark, but at a distance of about 4-5 yards, thus allowing them to play their own passing game and get shots in from afar. When we are at our best we give them practically no room, like Bayer did against us. We need our coaches to improve our consistency at doing this. We also need to improve our youth setup because our current class of '92 have hit their peak and now have only one direction to go in, down. I'd like to see us buying up young foreign talents more, in the U-19 bracket. I do think that some aspects of our club have stagnated, which I think has been due to Alex thinking he was about to retire. I hope now that he is staying for 3 more years he will shake up the scouting, coaching and youth setup.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Phew! Now we're getting somewhere! The most pertinent point you make here is the one about zonal marking. Why do we adopt this tactic - it's often been our undoing in big games I feel.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

Could it be due to them having a shrewder manager than ours? possibly, but I still think we're understating the element of luck in this. We went out to Real after going over there and not conceding a thing. We then came back and were unfortunate to score an own goal and have to go for it, which left them to counter-attack easily, albeit brilliantly. Against Bayern we were outplyed, pure and simple, as were Real. However, I wouldn't put that loss down to Bayern being able to control the pace of the game as at OT we were certainly the ones in control of that, but we simply has no answer to their resilience, as didn't Figo and Raul and co. Leverkusen was unlucky. I just feel we have surpassed the stage of being naive in europe, but have failed to get the rub of the green in the big games. I really don't see Bayern being a better team than us, managed better maybe, but their trophy haul suggests they are no better.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think the "luck" card is played too often for my liking. This is exactly the type of excuse that I feel Keano is trying to get away from. He knows it wasn't down to luck.

 

[Divine]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Phew! Now we're getting somewhere! The most pertinent point you make here is the one about zonal marking. Why do we adopt this tactic - it's often been our undoing in big games I feel.</strong><hr></blockquote>

United play with zonal marking all the time, as do most defenses around the world except German teams, who have a tradition for man-marking and a libero...

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

I think the "luck" card is played too often for my liking. This is exactly the type of excuse that I feel Keano is trying to get away from. He knows it wasn't down to luck.</strong><hr></blockquote>

4 bloody balls off the line. I don't think you can be any unluckier.

The whole problem this year was too many players off form in one game (i.e. Giggs, Scholes, Veron, RVN). You may argue that over the last 8 years the law of averages would suggest that can't be used as an excuse, but that's what Keano was saying in his interview. Christ, I can hardly remember Giggsy playing so shit over two legs as Leverkusen. The tactics we used may also have been wrong, but that is a different matter altogether than the issue of whether or not we have adapted to the continental style of play. We've had enough performances over the years to prove that simply can't be the case (i.e. not adapted).

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Phew! Now we're getting somewhere! The most pertinent point you make here is the one about zonal marking. Why do we adopt this tactic - it's often been our undoing in big games I feel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its ok if we close them down and harass them - the point is to get the ball back, whereas when we do it wrong it seems we are just trying to keep them outside our 18yard box - but we don't have the organisation and defense to do this, and it doesn't pay enough respect to the ability of opposition players to be able to score from 25yards or more - they can, and do, if given the time and space.

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Its ok if we close them down and harass them - the point is to get the ball back, whereas when we do it wrong it seems we are just trying to keep them outside our 18yard box - but we don't have the organisation and defense to do this, and it doesn't pay enough respect to the ability of opposition players to be able to score from 25yards or more - they can, and do, if given the time and space.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think there is a point in all this

But lets just accept it that our defense was just not good enough when you are playing a 4 5 1 system. This gives an incentive for teams to come at you, and if you dont have a real quick defense, you are chasing the game as we went behind or lost our lead so often. Just look back..Other than maybe a few mediocre teams, every other team has scored against us at Old Trafford. Says a lot

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

I think this season shows that we're heading in the right direction

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>I think this season shows that we're heading in the right direction</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, will probably lead to buying a solid defense and sticking with a 4 4 2 to give more space to Ruud....

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by sunny:
<strong>

I think there is a point in all this

But lets just accept it that our defense was just not good enough when you are playing a 4 5 1 system. This gives an incentive for teams to come at you, and if you dont have a real quick defense, you are chasing the game as we went behind or lost our lead so often. Just look back..Other than maybe a few mediocre teams, every other team has scored against us at Old Trafford. Says a lot</strong><hr></blockquote>
We need to be more organised and disciplined, which requires good coaching. I hope we get someone like Peter Taylor.

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
We need to be more organised and disciplined, which requires good coaching. I hope we get someone like Peter Taylor.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. I really feel tactics have been our downfall this season.

 

[Davo]

Originally posted by JSV:
[QB]

4 bloody balls off the line. I don't think you can be any unluckier.

[QB]<hr></blockquote>

Bayer were the better team in both games...

Hardly lucky is it?

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
We need to be more organised and disciplined, which requires good coaching. I hope we get someone like Peter Taylor.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, well said....Will probably cool Fergie down a bit..

 

[JSV]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Bayer were the better team in both games...

Hardly lucky is it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

In the second leg we had by far the higher number of chances.

So they were lucky.

 

[sunny]

Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

I agree. I really feel tactics have been our downfall this season.</strong><hr></blockquote>DOes that mean that f*** Bosnich had a point?