The quality of the premiership is shocking

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't really buy that there's a bigger degree of financial advantage between the 8th and 20th placed teams in England and their European counterparts than there is between City, United, Chelsea and Atletico, Juve, Dortmund.

No, but what you've done there is arguably to list the small handful of teams that belong to the "with few exceptions" group I alluded to above. There aren't many other candidates, i.e. teams that cannot be classed as A-list money wise - but who are better than City.

I'm not sure what the exact numbers are presently, but the budget of an average 8-20 team in England is dramatically larger than that of the Spanish equivalent. And the gap is widening with every new TV deal. If this does not translate to a discrepancy in footballing strength to a noticeable degree - then, well, I repeat what I said above: It would be absurd. Not least because these PL teams are to an increasing extent made up of both players and managerial staff poached from all over Europe (and South America).

With the 8-20 group, however, we are firmly back in the "unquantifiable" realm. There is no way of knowing how strong an average PL relegation battler is compared to a Spanish, Italian or German counterpart.

 

[Born2Lose]

What do you mean by 'very lucky'? The 18 Bundesliga clubs have overall a higher revenue than La Liga and Serie A with 20 clubs and that's without transfer money counted. It's the 2nd richest football league in the world. The league makes the biggest profit each year (more than the PL), has the healthiest balance between wages and revenue and is still increasing in quality. German clubs have never been dependent on income through transfers and we aren't now either.

You make it sound as if we should be thankful that the English clubs let us have a share of their broadcasting deals or else we couldn't compete. That's utter nonsense.

In the top 30 clubs by revenue in 2013/14 the Premier League had 14 clubs whilst the Bundesliga had 4, suggesting an inequal league to me, but being a Bayern fan I'm sure you don't mind. There was a time in the Premier league when United could have looked after their own interests but decided a competitive league was more important. People can talk all they like about marketing, but the reason 12.3m watch an average premier league game whilst 2m watch a Bundesliga game is because the league is so uncompetitive.

Being a Bayern fan I'm sure your very glad of the wage/revenue balance which has allowed you in the past to poach a talent like Lewandowski by effectively tripling his wage and unashamedly paying nothing for him.

The way people talk about the Bundesliga you would think it's produces European champion after champion but over the past 10 years it's only produced one Champions League trophy and 0 Europa League winners, when over the same period Spain has produced 5 CL and 6EL winners. Let's be honest if you Barcelona loose on the Bundesliga they would absolutely walk it.

 

[JPRouve]

No, but what you've done there is arguably to list the small handful of teams that belong to the "with few exceptions" group I alluded to above. There aren't many other candidates, i.e. teams that cannot be classed as A-list money wise - but who are better than City.

I'm not sure what the exact numbers are presently, but the budget of an average 8-20 team in England is dramatically larger than that of the Spanish equivalent. And the gap is widening with every new TV deal. If this does not translate to a discrepancy in footballing strength to a noticeable degree - then, well, I repeat what I said above: It would be absurd. Not least because these PL teams are to an increasing extent made up of both players and managerial staff poached from all over Europe (and South America).

With the 8-20 group, however, we are firmly back in the "unquantifiable" realm. There is no way of knowing how strong an average PL relegation battler is compared to a Spanish, Italian or German counterpart.

The thing is, english clubs live in a different market, the shit and average players cost a lot in transfer fees and wages. Also the good players won't sign for middle table english clubs because those clubs can't provide European football. What will probably happen is that english clubs will overpay even more, the top clubs will sign a handful of very good players at exorbitant prices and their continental counterparts will replace those players with 2 or 3 players for the same amount.

 

[do.ob]

Because, as suggested above, the discrepancy is much more dramatic down the table. The benefits of financial "doping" are bound to be less marked at the top, because - again - the European rivals which currently outperform the English are on the same level money wise (more or less, and with few exceptions). Down the table this picture is completely different: A relegation battler in England virtually swims in cash compared to the Spanish equivalent.
It's a matter of degrees, simply put: You can do a shoddy job in many a sense, not getting the best out of your expensive squad, but THAT kind of difference in pure money terms should be significant. And it's not one team - it's a whole batch of teams that are all swimming in money compared to the equivalent batch in other European leagues. Again, I fully agree that you can't simply buy your way to an actually well functioning, well performing side - but this is a huge discrepancy we're talking about, not a slight edge.

You call like 10 clubs a few exceptions? I can't agree with that.
I agree though that the difference in income should be more significant on the lower end of the table, but then I look at the tables and I see Hoffenheim (18th) at 10 points and Wolfsburg at 25. In England United (probalby comparable in strength to Wolfsburg right now?) at 29 and Newcastle at 13, in Spain Celta and Villareal are at 24/25 points while the 18th is at 11, so the gaps between those teams don't seem smaller in England. I admit this is far from the perfect measure, but I don't see many better ones.

Or if we exclude the "freak" teams (Real, Barca, Bayern and Altetico/Dortmund because of their form) then the gap between the best of the rest and the 18th (seems fairest, because Buli only has 18 teams) is 14 points in Spain, 19 points in England and 13 points in Germany.

I think scouting (or the lack of it from a lot of English clubs) and the "fact" that English clubs have to pay more for the same players negates a lot of the monetary advantage. Also the truly good players are likely to choose EL/CL football over money.

 

[Balu]

In the top 30 clubs by revenue in 2013/14 the Premier League had 14 clubs whilst the Bundesliga had 4, suggesting an inequal league to me, but being a Bayern fan I'm sure you don't mind. There was a time in the Premier league when United could have looked after their own interests but decided a competitive league was more important. People can talk all they like about marketing, but the reason 12.3m watch an average premier league game whilst 2m watch a Bundesliga game is because the league is so uncompetitive.

Being a Bayern fan I'm sure your very glad of the wage/revenue balance which has allowed you in the past to poach a talent like Lewandowski by effectively tripling his wage and unashamedly paying nothing for him.

The way people talk about the Bundesliga you would think it's produces European champion after champion but over the past 10 years it's only produced one Champions League trophy and 0 Europa League winners, when over the same period Spain has produced 5 CL and 6EL winners. Let's be honest if you Barcelona loose on the Bundesliga they would absolutely walk it.

So after your initial point was a big load of nonsense you thought it's a good idea to move to senseless statements about what I think and a load of made up exaggerations that you can actually criticise? Well done.

 

[Born2Lose]

So after your initial point was a big load of nonsense you thought it's a good idea to move to senseless statements about what I think and a load of made up exaggerations that you can actually criticise? Well done.

I said the PL money has helped German clubs, a few posts back another German poster talked about how Liverpool paid 10m euros more for a player than a German club would as if that's a good thing for the league. It's a good thing that a richer German club can pay less to a smaller club?

I don't really see what is senseless about suggesting that the Bundesliga isn't that great due to a return of only one European trophy over 10 years, or when 6 times as many people choose to watch another league. If you want the award for the most financially prudent league in Europe then congratulations it's yours.

 

[JPRouve]

I said the PL money has helped German clubs, a few posts back another German poster talked about how Liverpool paid 10m euros more for a player than a German club would as if that's a good thing for the league. It's a good thing that a richer German club can pay less to a smaller club?

I don't really see what is senseless about suggesting that the Bundesliga isn't that great due to a return of only one European trophy over 10 years, or when 6 times as many people choose to watch another league. If you want the award for the most financially prudent league in Europe then congratulations it's yours.

You misunderstood, they won't pay it because it's not their market price, they can buy the same quality for far less.

 

[Balu]

I said the PL money has helped German clubs, a few posts back another German poster talked about how Liverpool paid 10m euros more for a player than a German club would as if that's a good thing for the league. It's a good thing that a richer German club can pay less to a smaller club?

I don't really see what is senseless about suggesting that the Bundesliga isn't that great due to a return of only one European trophy over 10 years, or when 6 times as many people choose to watch another league. If you want the award for the most financially prudent league in Europe then congratulations it's yours.

That's not what you said at all . Oh and the rest is again making stuff up that pretty much no one even argued in the first place.

 

[Born2Lose]

You misunderstood, they won't pay it because it's not their market price, they can buy the same quality for far less.

I apologise if I misunderstood I won't pretend that I know a lot about the Bundesliga but on a lot of sites I've read not everyone agrees that the picture is so rosy

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You call like 10 clubs a few exceptions?

There is a group of powerhouses in Europe that have been better than the English elite for several seasons now. There is an obvious discrepancy between these sides and the English top clubs. But the number of teams in this category that are NOT financially on par with the English is slender. Right now, at this very moment, a club like Wolfsburg may be on United's level, but I doubt many would consider this anything but an anomaly. The discrepancy I refer to above is NOT an anomaly, but a pattern which has established itself over several years.

So, yes: I maintain that the number of clubs that are 1) superior to the English elite and 2) not on their level financially - is very slender.

I don't know what we're actually arguing about here, though. My point does not apply to the English top clubs, who have become serial underperformers compared to their European rivals - nobody in his right mind would deny this. And it proves that having money does not guarantee success.

However, what I keep saying here is that if the truly dramatic difference in wealth between the average PL club and its counterparts in Europe does not translate significantly to the footballing side of things, this is very remarkable. It defies the logic seen pretty much everywhere else. This isn't a matter of a few clubs doing poor business, failing to exploit their financial edge (which is considerable, and getting bigger by the year) - it's an entire set of mid- to lower table clubs that ALL fail to do so.

 

[JPRouve]

I apologise if I misunderstood I won't pretend that I know a lot about the Bundesliga but on a lot of sites I read not everyone agrees that the picture is so rosy

The real problem for continental clubs is the likes of Tottenham and Everton, they have a lot more money than their European counterparts and can provide European football those two clubs are a real threat, but at the same time they are stuck in a market where players are expensive which reduce their financial power. So if Everton and Tottenham manage to reduce their wage bill, by for example using more incentive, they will free up a lot of money and will be able to compete with top European clubs, they also need to produce more homegrown players.

The mid table clubs are not a threat because they only have money to give, they are the Qatar of Europe. And the big clubs are not a threat too because the players they want, play for extremely rich clubs who don't care about money and can pay huge wages.

But what I say is only true for Germany, Spain and Italy. All the leagues weaker than France are all at the mercy of the PL, France included.

 

[FCBarca]

As an example: I like Shaqiri and hope he'll do well at Stoke, but let's assume he continues with his inconsistent form that he showed over the last 2 years and turns out to be a flop. Bayern and Inter got rid of him without much problem, without making a loss, but there's no way any club in Europe will take him off Stoke if he doesn't excel there.

Shaqiri's lack of success at Bayern and Inter are very different & specific scenarios, tbf. I don't believe you can make a generalization with respect to the player. And for the record, Inter have a terrible record of squandering talented players

Even with that crazy tv deal and the insane amount of money, English clubs need to make sure that they have a solid foundation, one that is as good as in Spain, Germany and Italy. Without getting the basics right, without quality youth development and great scouting, English clubs can't really use that additional money effectively to gain the advantage you'd expect them to have by just looking at the numbers in financial reports.

This is spot on and has been discussed for a good 7 or 8 years now in the media.

 

[Balu]

The real problem for continental clubs is the likes of Tottenham and Everton, they have a lot more money than their European counterparts and can provide European football those two clubs are a real threat, but at the same time they are stuck in a market where players are expensive which reduce their financial power. So if Everton and Tottenham manage to reduce their wage bill, by for example using more incentive, they will free up a lot of money and will be able to compete with top European clubs, they also need to produce more homegrown players.

Tottenham is actually a perfect example of why money in itself doesn't tell us a lot about the quality of teams. Most of their big money transfers were a bit shit, but many small transfers with good development and scouting helped them become stronger and it's pretty obvious this season. The players they bought in recent years for big money from teams you could describe as their European counterparts (Lamela, Soldado, Son from Roma, Valencia, Leverkusen) aren't the reason why they look brilliantly this season.

They pretty much wasted their financial advantage on players that weren't worth the prices they paid, which is obvious because their status means they can't attract players that are necessarily worth that kind of money. What makes them a great team right now are the other factors.

 

[BBRBB]

EPL doesn't exactly live up to its excessive hype and financial power but the quality is still very high and far from shocking.

English teams have cherry picked the best players from Ligue 1. Every single French player from PL was in ToY in France at least three times.

Can't be further from the truth. Only Payet ever featured in Ligue 1 TotY (twice), André Ayew being the other established player (oops almost forgot Cabaye that PSG were happy to get rid of) and Martial the only top quality to move to EPL.

The rest of the transfers concerns average to good players with potential. The new thing is the high number of mid/bottom table EPL teams that could raid some of the players for prices only top EPL teams were paying before.

EPL clubs were dismissed for most of the top targets (Lacazette, Fékir, Moutinho, Fabinho, Cavani, Rabiot, Marquinhos) or outmuscled by other teams (Kondogbia, Abdennour, Ferreira Carrasco, Kurzawa, Digne, Gignac, Imbula).

So much for cherry picking the top Ligue 1 players.

 

[JPRouve]

EPL doesn't exactly live up to its excessive hype and financial power but the quality is still very high and far from shocking.

Can't be further from the truth. Only Payet ever featured in Ligue 1 TotY (twice), André Ayew being the other established player (oops almost forgot Cabaye that PSG were happy to get rid of) and Martial the only top quality to move to EPL.

The rest of the transfers concerns average to good players with potential. The new thing is the high number of mid/bottom table EPL teams that could raid some of the players for prices only top EPL teams were paying before.

EPL clubs were dismissed for most of the top targets (Lacazette, Fékir, Moutinho, Fabinho, Cavani, Rabiot, Marquinhos) or outmuscled by other teams (Kondogbia, Abdennour, Ferreira Carrasco, Kurzawa, Digne, Gignac, Imbula).

So much for cherry picking the top Ligue 1 players.

He was joking.

 

[Sarni]

EPL doesn't exactly live up to its excessive hype and financial power but the quality is still very high and far from shocking.

Can't be further from the truth. Only Payet ever featured in Ligue 1 TotY (twice), André Ayew being the other established player (oops almost forgot Cabaye that PSG were happy to get rid of) and Martial the only top quality to move to EPL.

The rest of the transfers concerns average to good players with potential. The new thing is the high number of mid/bottom table EPL teams that could raid some of the players for prices only top EPL teams were paying before.

EPL clubs were dismissed for most of the top targets (Lacazette, Fékir, Moutinho, Fabinho, Cavani, Rabiot, Marquinhos) or outmuscled by other teams (Kondogbia, Abdennour, Ferreira Carrasco, Kurzawa, Digne, Gignac, Imbula).

So much for cherry picking the top Ligue 1 players.

If they haven't moved to Premier League it's because they're shit terrible players though. Otherwise they'd have been in PL already. PL POWER!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Revan]

EPL doesn't exactly live up to its excessive hype and financial power but the quality is still very high and far from shocking.

Can't be further from the truth. Only Payet ever featured in Ligue 1 TotY (twice), André Ayew being the other established player (oops almost forgot Cabaye that PSG were happy to get rid of) and Martial the only top quality to move to EPL.

The rest of the transfers concerns average to good players with potential. The new thing is the high number of mid/bottom table EPL teams that could raid some of the players for prices only top EPL teams were paying before.

EPL clubs were dismissed for most of the top targets (Lacazette, Fékir, Moutinho, Fabinho, Cavani, Rabiot, Marquinhos) or outmuscled by other teams (Kondogbia, Abdennour, Ferreira Carrasco, Kurzawa, Digne, Gignac, Imbula).

So much for cherry picking the top Ligue 1 players.

Sarni and me have a habit of going sarastically full Twigginator when it comes to EPL.

 

[BBRBB]

He was joking.

It went over my head. J-P Rouve's jokes are more suited to my level.

Cheers Sarni & Revan

 

[VP]

Find the smug dismissal of the English game a bit strange on an English football club forum. Quality might be shite, but it's still the most compelling league in the world. There's a reason why we have Poles and Germans on here with five-digit post counts.

 

[golden_blunder]

I've always found that the passion & urgency of (most) games in the English leagues make them the most entertaining to watch. The leagues are the most likely to throw up a shock result as opposed to the German, Italian or Spanish leagues for example.

 

[Revan]

Find the smug dismissal of the English game a bit strange on an English football club forum. Quality might be shite, but it's still the most compelling league in the world. There's a reason why we have Poles and Germans on here with five-digit post counts.

A lot of posters here are United fans, but not EPL fans - at least not the current version of it, so not strange at all.

Balu isn't either, but you see in pretty much every forum fans of clubs that play in other leagues.

I find it more strange the complete lack of objectivity from a lot of English posters here.

 

[Sphaero]

Find the smug dismissal of the English game a bit strange on an English football club forum. Quality might be shite, but it's still the most compelling league in the world. There's a reason why we have Poles and Germans on here with five-digit post counts.

That has nothing to do with the EPL and more to do with the fact that this is the best moderated English Football forum (also due to the newbie section) and far more enjoyable atmosphere pretty much every other major Football forum including the German ones. Well that and the global reach Manchester United has. I rather discuss Bundesliga football on here with mostly Bayern supporter than with ones of my own Club in German football forums.

 

[VP]

A lot of posters here are United fans, but not EPL fans - at least not the current version of it, so not strange at all.

Balu isn't either, but you see in pretty much every forum fans of clubs that play in other leagues.

I find it more strange the complete lack of objectivity from a lot of English posters here.

United are an EPL club though. How would you derive joy from our league wins?

Twigginator is the only excessively partisan guy on here.

That has nothing to do with the EPL and more to do with the fact that this is the best moderated English Football forum (also due to the newbie section) and far more enjoyable atmosphere pretty much every other major Football forum including the German ones. Well that and the global reach Manchester United has. I rather discuss Bundesliga football on here with mostly Bayern supporter than with ones of my own Club in German football forums.

The global reach is partly due to United playing in the English game.

 

[Revan]

United are an EPL club though. How would you derive joy from our league wins?

Twigginator is the only excessively partisan guy on here.

What does this even mean?

So, I guess it is between blindly sayin that a league is the best when it clearly isn't, or changing the team you support?

I liked EPL in 2005-2009 when it was the best league in the world. Now, it isn't. I still support United.

 

[adexkola]

The increased money from the TV deal won't raise the level of performance of the EPL, it'll all go into wage increases and more spunk to throw on overrated foreign footballers looking for the check. The fans hungry for more success will not settle for a more balanced measured approach to building a club. Not the ones at the top, at least. Look at ours for example.

 

[Nedved]

I've always found that the passion & urgency of (most) games in the English leagues make them the most entertaining to watch. The leagues are the most likely to throw up a shock result as opposed to the German, Italian or Spanish leagues for example.

Do you have a source for the latter statement or is it just gut feeling? You say this the very week title contenders in those leagues were beaten by smaller clubs.

 

[adexkola]

Since when did the Italian league pip the English league? Bar Juventus they are well behind the pack.

 

[golden_blunder]

Do you have a source for the latter statement or is it just gut feeling? You say this the very week title contenders in those leagues were beaten by smaller clubs.

Just from watching them over the years. Shock results are more likely to happen in England. Obviously there are exceptions

 

[SteveW]

Top 4 are poor but overall depth is decent imo. TV money should ensure it stays that way too

 

[Sarni]

Find the smug dismissal of the English game a bit strange on an English football club forum. Quality might be shite, but it's still the most compelling league in the world. There's a reason why we have Poles and Germans on here with five-digit post counts.

I gladly admit that I enjoy watching Premier League but at the same I don't have to pretend it's some mythical incredibly strong league, NBA of football. I enjoy Marvel movies despite being aware they are not Oscar masterpieces.

 

[cyberman]

on a related note i'm strangely confident of all 4 teams qualifying from the group stages this week

 

[Wumminator]

How can you look at our bench and doubt the quality of the Premier league....

 

[Cheesy]

How can you look at our bench and doubt the quality of the Premier league....

 

[Lagger]

For entertainment, this is the best league in the world. I don't give a shite how good Bayern are when they're playing in a league where they can manage 40 points out of 45 with a +35 GD.

Leicester being top of the league is far more interesting than any other league in Europe right now.

That's what German people used to say 5 years ago, didn't they?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The EPL is so shocking that they have 3 teams qualified for the KO stages of the CL, more than any other country other than Spain - Germany only have 2

Come on let's hear it

 

[Raw]

The EPL is so shocking that they have 3 teams qualified for the KO stages of the CL, more than any other country , Spain and Germany only have 2

Come on let's hear it

Spain have 3. Barca, Madrid and Atletico.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Spain have 3. Barca, Madrid and Atletico.

I had corrected it, two were knocked out

 

[Amadaeus]

The EPL is so shocking that they have 3 teams qualified for the KO stages of the CL, more than any other country other than Spain - Germany only have 2

Come on let's hear it

I agree, individuals keep saying the same rhetoric towards how bad the premier league is but in reality it is the strongest league and if we marginalized the amount of game they play in domestic competition(e.g. getting rid of the capital one cup, among other things), English team will do much better in this competition.

 

[cyberman]

The EPL is so shocking that they have 3 teams qualified for the KO stages of the CL, more than any other country other than Spain - Germany only have 2

Come on let's hear it

Thats the problem I have. People compare all our teams to Barca / Bayern / PSG when in reality they should be comparing our third placed team to others third placed team and so on. Nobody compares Roma to Real Madrid when they fail.
On average how many 3RD placed teams qualify from the group stages from other rival leagues? Yet Its a disaster for English football when it happens to us.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I agree, individuals keep saying the same rhetoric towards how bad the premier league is but in reality it is the strongest league and if we marginalized the amount of game they play in domestic competition(e.g. getting rid of the capital one cup, among other things), English team will do much better in this competition.

Problem is that because no team in the PL is dominating or being consistently on top form then that is supposed to equate to the PL being poor. Which other league would have the 15th placed team being top of a CL group.