The Overlap | Fan Debate Christmas Special

Them slagging Neville off for his choice of shirt :lol: as bad as Hearn is to listen to you can't be looking at that shirt for too long either.

Almost impossible to watch or listen to this one.
 
4 episodes in to a show called Stick To Football an d their guest is a boxing guy. Hmm
 
A bit split on this one. I personally can't stand Hearn but he was actually quite a good guest, however I thought the whole point was to 'stick' to football and only football. If the plan is to broaden out to other sports this show loses it's appeal because all these pundits know a lot about football and have good stories and when you leave that world, it's just nowhere near as engaging.
 


The Roy Keane comedy hour is back.

The whole section on his red cards is top tier stuff
 


It seems like here they are bemoaning the integrity of the Premier League but they have been a part of embellishing City's achievements, Chelsea's and Newcastle's rise.

They can talk about how unfair this is on Everton yet they're all OK standing with City on the pitch while they celebrate their ill-gotten gains and having a Manchester City cheerleader to do punditry.

They are part of the problem.
 
Yeah. High levels of irony on display throughout. Keane talking rubbish about us too saying we should just suck it up. Of course not.
 
I haven’t watched it but how can the top 6 be bullies when 3 are under investigation? I’m sure it’s explained better in the video itself
 


It seems like here they are bemoaning the integrity of the Premier League but they have been a part of embellishing City's achievements, Chelsea's and Newcastle's rise.

They can talk about how unfair this is on Everton yet they're all OK standing with City on the pitch while they celebrate their ill-gotten gains and having a Manchester City cheerleader to do punditry.

They are part of the problem.

I will watch the episode but what you point out is spot on - you can't distinguish the sporting achievements from the way they have gotten there, and considering the narrative that Sky has been pushing for those clubs, it's at the very least highly hypocritical of them.
 
It's just very clear City have managed to get these employees at big broadcasters censored. The section about 'what happens to Chelsea and City' doesn't really speak about City at all. Literally is Ornstein saying 'we don't know what will happen' and then Keane changes the subject back to Everton. Then G Nev goes on to say they needed to investigate Chelsea for the Saudi transfers.
 
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I will watch the episode but what you point out is spot on - you can't distinguish the sporting achievements from the way they have gotten there, and considering the narrative that Sky has been pushing for those clubs, it's at the very least highly hypocritical of them.
Find it really funny Neville is having a go. For years he’s salivated over city, praising them to no end about how well they’re run, how great their recruitment is and how good they’ve been for Manchester and the Pl to the point of nausea. Now it’s turned out they’ve basically just cheated for years….and now city are bullies and part of this lawless enterprise.
This is the problem with Neville. He always backs himself to a corner of extremes by feeling the need to overdo it, leaving him little wriggle room to change stance without looking like a gigantic fool.
 
New: Drink It In: The Rise of Man City
Manchester City's rise has been nothing short of meteoric; from an 8-1 humbling in 2008, to six-time Premier League winners. Follow the record breaking journey of the noisy neighbours.

https://www.sky.com/watch/title/pro...b957-cef4eb797402/episodes/season-0/episode-1

City: Premier League champions again
An exclusive look back at Manchester City's 2022/23 Premier League title-winning season, featuring unseen dressing room footage captured throughout their historic campaign.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...enes-look-city-premier-league-champions-again

Yes, Sky have absolutely nothing to do with the promotion of this sham of a football club. Nothing at all.
 
Find it really funny Neville is having a go. For years he’s salivated over city, praising them to no end about how well they’re run, how great their recruitment is and how good they’ve been for Manchester and the Pl to the point of nausea. Now it’s turned out they’ve basically just cheated for years….and now city are bullies and part of this lawless enterprise.
This is the problem with Neville. He always backs himself to a corner of extremes by feeling the need to overdo it, leaving him little wriggle room to change stance without looking like a gigantic fool.

He is a gigantic fool.
 
Find it really funny Neville is having a go. For years he’s salivated over city, praising them to no end about how well they’re run, how great their recruitment is and how good they’ve been for Manchester and the Pl to the point of nausea. Now it’s turned out they’ve basically just cheated for years….and now city are bullies and part of this lawless enterprise.
This is the problem with Neville. He always backs himself to a corner of extremes by feeling the need to overdo it, leaving him little wriggle room to change stance without looking like a gigantic fool.

I mean.. doesn't that make sense though? Take Lance Armstrong as an analogy, he deserved praise and looked great until it was found he'd cheated, then people reassessed their view on his achievements. City have been playing really well and until the cheating stuff came out deserved praise. Now that it's highly likely that they cheated, people reassess their praise.
 
I mean.. doesn't that make sense though? Take Lance Armstrong as an analogy, he deserved praise and looked great until it was found he'd cheated, then people reassessed their view on his achievements. City have been playing really well and until the cheating stuff came out deserved praise. Now that it's highly likely that they cheated, people reassess their praise.
It’s little different though because it’s not really a big surprise that city have cheated. There’s been murmurings of it for years. The Uefa ffp incident, the Mancini payments. It’s been obvious they’ve been cutting corners and being dodgy for years but Neville was always quick to talk about how great everything they did was and how they set an example and how rubbish the Glazers are at everything. All that bullshit about how much they’ve done for Manchester too, when again it was obvious that was just a smokescreen for something more sinister. Basically Neville should have known better. Fancies himself as quite knowledgeable on all things ownership and club running related yet he couldn’t see for the trees the shite city were up to.
 
I mean.. doesn't that make sense though? Take Lance Armstrong as an analogy, he deserved praise and looked great until it was found he'd cheated, then people reassessed their view on his achievements. City have been playing really well and until the cheating stuff came out deserved praise. Now that it's highly likely that they cheated, people reassess their praise.
They were saying this after UEFA found them guilty.
 
I mean.. doesn't that make sense though? Take Lance Armstrong as an analogy, he deserved praise and looked great until it was found he'd cheated, then people reassessed their view on his achievements. City have been playing really well and until the cheating stuff came out deserved praise. Now that it's highly likely that they cheated, people reassess their praise.

Imo it doesn’t make sense, on any level. Even Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher should be well aware that Manchester City aren’t where they are today simply because of hard work. Their path to success is a result of a method that normally operated clubs can’t possibly follow as it’s operation is completely based on being state funded. Look at Chelsea and the debt, which was interest free, they owed Abramovich when he fecked off. Praising the way Manchester City is being run is bizarre.

Also, the praise came after UEFA went after them.
 
Imo it doesn’t make sense, on any level. Even Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher should be well aware that Manchester City aren’t where they are today simply because of hard work. Their path to success is a result of a method that normally operated clubs can’t possibly follow as it’s operation is completely based on being state funded. Look at Chelsea and the debt, which was interest free, they owed Abramovich when he fecked off. Praising the way Manchester City is being run is bizarre.

Also, the praise came after UEFA went after them.
He wasn't going to publicly criticise the owners for chucking loads of money at the club because that's exactly what he did with Salford to get them climbing through divisions. It was only when City were charged with cheating that he changed his stance, which is fair enough.

People are very quick to jump on Neville's back whenever he expresses an opinion. I don't get it.
 
He wasn't going to publicly criticise the owners for chucking loads of money at the club because that's exactly what he did with Salford to get them climbing through divisions. It was only when City were charged with cheating that he changed his stance, which is fair enough.

People are very quick to jump on Neville's back whenever he expresses an opinion. I don't get it.
While the last sentence is somewhat true, in this case it's an entire hypocritical one he's expressing. What City have been doing has been clear for years now, since the leaks, and it's impossible to be working within the industry without knowing it. It hadn't changed his or Sky's agenda for ages, he hasn't had a sudden epiphany.
 
He wasn't going to publicly criticise the owners for chucking loads of money at the club because that's exactly what he did with Salford to get them climbing through divisions. It was only when City were charged with cheating that he changed his stance, which is fair enough.

People are very quick to jump on Neville's back whenever he expresses an opinion. I don't get it.

You can’t completely remove it from the equation and pretend it doesn’t exist, pretend Manchester City is a shining beacon for how other clubs should operate, simply because you’ve been funding Salford to the extreme and you’d look like a hypocrite. Also, the leak which prompted UEFA to act, was well known at the time, so Gary should’ve been well aware of the situation.
 
You can’t completely remove it from the equation and pretend it doesn’t exist, pretend Manchester City is a shining beacon for how other clubs should operate, simply because you’ve been funding Salford to the extreme and you’d look like a hypocrite. Also, the leak which prompted UEFA to act, was well known at the time, so Gary should’ve been well aware of the situation.
When working as a high profile football pundit, I don't think that a leak carries enough weight to do a full u-turn and start publicly scorning the way City operate. Even if he was privately confident that the leaks were ultimately going to lead to charges, he'd still get slated for coming as very bitter.
 
When working as a high profile football pundit, I don't think that a leak carries enough weight to do a full u-turn and start publicly scorning the way City operate. Even if he was privately confident that the leaks were ultimately going to lead to charges, he'd still get slated for coming as very bitter.
Why not? Also, there's a world between "publicly scorning" and "praising them to high heavens" which might just have been to stop sucking them off on air once very clear emails were leaked highlighted how illicitly their operations were being run - notwithstanding a ludicrous CAS decision based on a technicality.
 
Why not? Also, there's a world between "publicly scorning" and "praising them to high heavens" which might just have been to stop sucking them off on air once very clear emails were leaked highlighted how illicitly their operations were being run - notwithstanding a ludicrous CAS decision based on a technicality.
Because he's a pundit, not an investigative journalist. I'd assume pundits are briefed by their employers to work on so-called facts rather than leaks. Every other pundit was doing the same thing. It's hardly as if all of his peers over at the BBC or BT Sport were commenting on the leaks whilst Neville was turning a blind eye to it.

I agree he could've maybe dialled down the praise for City's operations, but he would often do it to draw attention to how badly United were run under Woodward when compared to City hiring football people to make footballing decisions.
 
Because he's a pundit, not an investigative journalist. I'd assume pundits are briefed by their employers to work on so-called facts rather than leaks. Every other pundit was doing the same thing. It's hardly as if all of his peers over at the BBC or BT Sport were commenting on the leaks whilst Neville was turning a blind eye to it.

I agree he could've maybe dialled down the praise for City's operations, but he would often do it to draw attention to how badly United were run under Woodward when compared to City hiring football people to make footballing decisions.
A leak can absolutely be a fact - which it was in this case.

As to the bolded part, I agree and find it just as scandalous. I've been consistent in pointing out the hypocrisy of the media in general on this matter.
 
At the end of the day, shouldn't we just stick to football instead of asking where does the money come from and how much are your players really earning?

Every team has the same 38 games.
 
At the end of the day, shouldn't we just stick to football instead of asking where does the money come from and how much are your players really earning?

Every team has the same 38 games.
Once you cross that white line, you still have to go out there and perform. Or something.
 
Imo it doesn’t make sense, on any level. Even Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher should be well aware that Manchester City aren’t where they are today simply because of hard work. Their path to success is a result of a method that normally operated clubs can’t possibly follow as it’s operation is completely based on being state funded. Look at Chelsea and the debt, which was interest free, they owed Abramovich when he fecked off. Praising the way Manchester City is being run is bizarre.

Also, the praise came after UEFA went after them.

Tbh I didn't really listen to Gary's stuff much so I don't know how blinkered he was, it just sounded like the guy I replied to was saying it was daft to praise them for playing good football before the charges were made public, but I realise now that I read his post wrong and he was talking about how well run they are etc. The point about the previous UEFA/CAS rulings is fair - it was pretty clear they were dodgy even back then, so that should be taken account of when praising how well run they are.

Praise for how they're run imo is correct in one sense and wrong in another. They are well run in the sense that United aren't well run - organisation, scouting, footballing strategy, etc. But they aren't well run in the sense that they've most likely broken a lot of rules. It would be great if United were run as well in those senses, without the cheating.
 
When working as a high profile football pundit, I don't think that a leak carries enough weight to do a full u-turn and start publicly scorning the way City operate. Even if he was privately confident that the leaks were ultimately going to lead to charges, he'd still get slated for coming as very bitter.

What now? This was well known at the the time, so why would he have to do a full u-turn, the leaks is fecking years and years ago.

Neville’s problem, imo, is that he decides on something and that’s it, thats the way it is, there’s no middle ground up for debate, it’s 1 or 0. Manchester City are where they are today because they are state funded, everyone knows that, it’s an approach that normally operated clubs can’t follow without going bankrupt, everyone should know that as well. Praising the way City are being run, even without knowing anything about their level of cheating, is still a slap in the face of every club trying to achieve things on their own. He’s the bog standard taxi driver that has all the solutions to every political problem. It is actually possible to praise something while at the same time highlighting the things that are highly problematic.

Just like his shambles of a rant about the Super league.
 
What now? This was well known at the the time, so why would he have to do a full u-turn, the leaks is fecking years and years ago.

Neville’s problem, imo, is that he decides on something and that’s it, thats the way it is, there’s no middle ground up for debate, it’s 1 or 0. Manchester City are where they are today because they are state funded, everyone knows that, it’s an approach that normally operated clubs can’t follow without going bankrupt, everyone should know that as well. Praising the way City are being run, even without knowing anything about their level of cheating, is still a slap in the face of every club trying to achieve things on their own. He’s the bog standard taxi driver that has all the solutions to every political problem. It is actually possible to praise something while at the same time highlighting the things that are highly problematic.

Just like his shambles of a rant about the Super league.
Pretty much this.
 
What now? This was well known at the the time, so why would he have to do a full u-turn, the leaks is fecking years and years ago.

Neville’s problem, imo, is that he decides on something and that’s it, thats the way it is, there’s no middle ground up for debate, it’s 1 or 0. Manchester City are where they are today because they are state funded, everyone knows that, it’s an approach that normally operated clubs can’t follow without going bankrupt, everyone should know that as well. Praising the way City are being run, even without knowing anything about their level of cheating, is still a slap in the face of every club trying to achieve things on their own. He’s the bog standard taxi driver that has all the solutions to every political problem. It is actually possible to praise something while at the same time highlighting the things that are highly problematic.

Just like his shambles of a rant about the Super league.
You're not wrong about state ownership creating an uneven playing field but, as I already said, pretty much every single pundit has failed to criticise City for this, so why aren't you holding them to the same standards as Neville? It just feels like he gets way more stick than anyone else working in punditry because he dares to show a modicum of intelligence from time to time.

*Neville pushes for an independent regulator*
The caf: "Oh you think you're a politician now do you?! Remember what you said about City's owners 3 years ago?? You're just a bog standard taxi driver!!!"
 
Everton-fans have nothing to complain about - unless Chelsea and City get away - then they have a lot to complain about. But then Everton can sue the P.L - until then they have broken the rules and should blame their own club
 
Everton-fans have nothing to complain about - unless Chelsea and City get away - then they have a lot to complain about. But then Everton can sue the P.L - until then they have broken the rules and should blame their own club

Disagree tbh. Yes, the owners have put us in this position but there are many factors in the report which have been dismissed unfairly (which I've spoke about in the main thread), the 10 point deduction is incredibly harsh as a punishment, and there are definite questions to be asked of the independent panel and the PL which will hopefully be put forward in the appeal.
 
What now? This was well known at the the time, so why would he have to do a full u-turn, the leaks is fecking years and years ago.

Neville’s problem, imo, is that he decides on something and that’s it, thats the way it is, there’s no middle ground up for debate, it’s 1 or 0. Manchester City are where they are today because they are state funded, everyone knows that, it’s an approach that normally operated clubs can’t follow without going bankrupt, everyone should know that as well. Praising the way City are being run, even without knowing anything about their level of cheating, is still a slap in the face of every club trying to achieve things on their own. He’s the bog standard taxi driver that has all the solutions to every political problem. It is actually possible to praise something while at the same time highlighting the things that are highly problematic.

Just like his shambles of a rant about the Super league.
Yup, every single time without fail. I love the guy but he really does dig himself unnecessarily large holes at times.

@Gabriel Djemba-Bebe
Id say the reason he gets more attention that other pundits is because people DO listen to him and he is literally eveywhre. I mean he’s got two full blown shows on sky where he basically talks and gives his opinion on football related matter.
 
Tbh I didn't really listen to Gary's stuff much so I don't know how blinkered he was, it just sounded like the guy I replied to was saying it was daft to praise them for playing good football before the charges were made public, but I realise now that I read his post wrong and he was talking about how well run they are etc. The point about the previous UEFA/CAS rulings is fair - it was pretty clear they were dodgy even back then, so that should be taken account of when praising how well run they are.

Praise for how they're run imo is correct in one sense and wrong in another. They are well run in the sense that United aren't well run - organisation, scouting, footballing strategy, etc. But they aren't well run in the sense that they've most likely broken a lot of rules. It would be great if United were run as well in those senses, without the cheating.

Them breaking rules is just the tip of the iceberg, really.

Look at how Chelsea were run under Abramovich, when he left the club there was roughly £1,6billion in debt owed to him, relating to operating costs that couldn’t be financed by Chelsea’s income.

Competing against state run clubs, or similar ala Roman, is more or less impossible over time.

The entire concept, for me atleast, is just so far fetched that i really don’t understand how anyone can enjoy it.