The Overlap | Dallaglio: Supporting Chelsea, Mourinho & Roy’s Letter From A Rugby Fan! | Stick to Football 69

[SilentWitness]

They're pumping content out currently!

Looks like the idea to me is when Rooney is around he replaces Carragher on the main show and frees up Carragher to lead on the fan debates.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

They're pumping content out currently!

Looks like the idea to me is when Rooney is around he replaces Carragher on the main show and frees up Carragher to lead on the fan debates.

I've never looked at those fan debates because 1) I suspect they get pretty poor "fans" and 2) (more importantly) Scholes is absolutely terrible and Carragher is an idiot with an inflated sense of self-importance. Are they actually any good and worth watching? I enjoy most of the Stick to football episodes because of the general vibe of them (and despite Neville, mostly), but these have little appeal for me.

 

[SilentWitness]

I've never looked at those fan debates because 1) I suspect they get pretty poor "fans" and 2) (more importantly) Scholes is absolutely terrible and Carragher is an idiot with an inflated sense of self-importance. Are they actually any good and worth watching? I enjoy most of the Stick to football episodes because of the general vibe of them (and despite Neville, mostly), but these have little appeal for me.

I tend to listen to them just to get a bit more background on some of the other teams in the league that I usually don't hear perspectives from. The fans from 'lesser' clubs are fairly decent, but they need to switch up the City/United/Chelsea ones as they irritate me. Think the Liverpool, Villa, Everton and Palace fans they usually have on are good. The Forest/Newcastle/Insert other fans are alright too. I think a problem with some of the fans is that they know each other a bit and they're 'In' with the mainstream crowd so keep getting the gig despite being annoying and sometimes not adding enough value to the show.

You're right that Scholes is shite though. In the last one where they were talking about tactical analysis of various teams in the league he came across as incredibly stupid and if you'd never watched his era of football and didn't know who he was you'd be amazed to hear that he was one of the best midfielders of his generation.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

You're right that Scholes is shite though. In the last one where they were talking about tactical analysis of various teams in the league he came across as incredibly stupid and if you'd never watched his era of football and didn't know who he was you'd be amazed to hear that he was one of the best midfielders of his generation.

It genuinely pains me how dull and ignorant he comes across as. Being that good a player and being that poor at analysing the game is mind blowing. I mean, he could get away with not being charismatic, that's fine, others are like that too, but it's the actual stuff he comes up with which as you say just doesn't compute with how brilliant he was as a player.

 

[REDARMY45]

Scholes is a proper simpleton sometimes. His reasoning for not being hot on De Ligt is bewildering. He can’t give a reason other than there must be something wrong with De Ligt since he’s been at few big clubs already. Idolised him as a player though.

 

[Marwood]

It genuinely pains me how dull and ignorant he comes across as. Being that good a player and being that poor at analysing the game is mind blowing. I mean, he could get away with not being charismatic, that's fine, others are like that too, but it's the actual stuff he comes up with which as you say just doesn't compute with how brilliant he was as a player.

Possibly.

But I also think fans/pundits overcomplicate the game in a pseudo intellectual way. A lot of it is gibberish to appear smart.

When guys like Keane and Scholes break the game down to first touch, pass, move, it doesn't compute.

But having said that, right or wrong, his delivery doesn't work on TV.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It genuinely pains me how dull and ignorant he comes across as. Being that good a player and being that poor at analysing the game is mind blowing. I mean, he could get away with not being charismatic, that's fine, others are like that too, but it's the actual stuff he comes up with which as you say just doesn't compute with how brilliant he was as a player.

I think most of the more naturally gifted players come across the same way, either they really don't care or, more likely, they don't understand how lesser players can't just 'do'. Think of someone from this generation who is much more instinctive like Palmer, possibly the worst potential pundit you could think of.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I think most of the more naturally gifted players come across the same way, either they really don't care or, more likely, they don't understand how lesser players can't just 'do'. Think of someone from this generation who is much more instinctive like Palmer, possibly the worst potential pundit you could think of.

I think this translates to Rooney in management. He probably expects Championship players to be able to do the stuff he did on the pitch. They just can't.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

Possibly.

But I also think fans/pundits overcomplicate the game in a pseudo intellectual way. A lot of it is gibberish to appear smart.

When guys like Keane and Scholes break the game down to first touch, pass, move, it doesn't compute.

But having said that, right or wrong, his delivery doesn't work on TV.

Yeah agree with you here. I think Scholes by his own admission is from the school of thought where football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better.

I don’t disagree with him on that to a fair degree, but it definitely doesn’t translate to him being a good pundit or analyst.

 

[Marwood]

I think most of the more naturally gifted players come across the same way, either they really don't care or, more likely, they don't understand how lesser players can't just 'do'. Think of someone from this generation who is much more instinctive like Palmer, possibly the worst potential pundit you could think of.

I don’t think it's that. Most of the time the discussion is around managers and their decisions.

People can call Scholes uninformed, a tactical dinosaur or whatever for questioning inverted wingbacks. But it's more about their need to appear tactically smart.

I think he views the game as pretty simple and I think rightly so. But that won't fill endless hours of broadcasting.

 

[DannyCAFC]

The main problem with Scholes is he sounds like somebody has just dragged him out of bed to be there every episode. Dull and always in a negative mood.

 

[SilentWitness]

If you think football is as simple as Scholes explains at times aka you can just set a formation and ask players to go out and play then you're as daft as he is.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don’t think it's that. Most of the time the discussion is around managers and their decisions.

People can call Scholes uninformed, a tactical dinosaur or whatever for questioning inverted wingbacks. But it's more about their need to appear tactically smart.

I think he views the game as pretty simple and I think rightly so. But that won't fill endless hours of broadcasting.

I agree that many fans go too far the other way, thinking football is like some kind of eternal tactical battle with countless possibilities - it is more with Scholes he comes across as almost over the top unbothered about tactics, as if they don't make any difference. Like he was mentioning how United were working on the back 5 and set piece defence before a game thinking it is too much into the tactics and it would 'fry' his head, his reasoning was you want to get your touch right etc. but clearly Amorim has no choice but to do tactical work whenever he can. Then Carragher talks about he watches the first ten mins of a game and is looking for patterns of what each team's plan is and Scholes thinks it's weird and says he thinks 'just score a goal'.

 

[Oranges038]

If you think football is as simple as Scholes explains at times aka you can just set a formation and ask players to go out and play then you're as daft as he is.

The more I watch him the more I think, he actually doesn't care about how teams play, because he just knew how to go out there and take control of a game. From this, I think his point is more about game intelligence and players knowing how to read the game and react, not just doing what you're told to do because you're told to do it that way. He probably just can't understand why players play like that.

From the bit I watched.

He was talking about Spurs conceding early because Porro was away pressing high, because that's what he's told to do and he won't do anything else. Where as, when they played, they'd say amongst themselves, we're away in a cup game, let sit in for the first 20/30 mins, settle into the game and go from there.

Spurs were 1-0 down after a minute.

If the players had any autonomy at all, they could very easily decided to sit back as a group and work their way into the game. Instead they are 1-0 down because the manager's instruction to his right back is to go chasing the ball high up the pitch.

 

[Marwood]

If you think football is as simple as Scholes explains at times aka you can just set a formation and ask players to go out and play then you're as daft as he is.

I don't think Scholes or anybody is saying just rock up on match day and go for it.

They train all week after all.

But almost all teams play pretty much the same way. Especially off the ball. To me pundits are sometimes just inventing stuff for something to talk about.

 

[SilentWitness]

I don't think Scholes or anybody is saying just rock up on match day and go for it.

They train all week after all.

But almost all teams play pretty much the same way. Especially off the ball. To me pundits are sometimes just inventing stuff for something to talk about.

He pretty much was in the video. He was reducing everything to extremely simple points. While football is essentially built on those simplicities, it is a tad more complex than that and teams do play slightly tactically different despite generally adopting a more physical pressing game in the past decade.

 

[Marwood]

I agree that many fans go too far the other way, thinking football is like some kind of eternal tactical battle with countless possibilities - it is more with Scholes he comes across as almost over the top unbothered about tactics, as if they don't make any difference. Like he was mentioning how United were working on the back 5 and set piece defence before a game thinking it is too much into the tactics and it would 'fry' his head, his reasoning was you want to get your touch right etc. but clearly Amorim has no choice but to do tactical work whenever he can. Then Carragher talks about he watches the first ten mins of a game and is looking for patterns of what each team's plan is and Scholes thinks it's weird and says he thinks 'just score a goal'.

But I think he's right. All the prep has been done in training. Now it's time to go play football. Express your talent. Use your initiative. On the ball at least.

You watch that first half against Leicester and the players aren't really playing football. They're playing out a script. A set of instructions.

I'd love to sit down with pundits and ask them about their training. What they did on the practice field. Were they told where and when to pass the ball etc.

 

[tomaldinho1]

But I think he's right. All the prep has been done in training. Now it's time to go play football. Express your talent. Use your initiative. On the ball at least.

You watch that first half against Leicester and the players aren't really playing football. They're playing out a script. A set of instructions.

I'd love to sit down with pundits and ask them about their training. What they did on the practice field. Were they told where and when to pass the ball etc.

So....tactics?

 

[The Mitcher]

But I think he's right. All the prep has been done in training. Now it's time to go play football. Express your talent. Use your initiative. On the ball at least.

You watch that first half against Leicester and the players aren't really playing football. They're playing out a script. A set of instructions.

I'd love to sit down with pundits and ask them about their training. What they did on the practice field. Were they told where and when to pass the ball etc.

I get what Scholes is saying, even if he does over-simplify it. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, that's what military experts always say and it's no different in sports. You can train all day every day on a plan for a game but it won't survive the first few minutes.

 

[Marwood]

He pretty much was in the video. He was reducing everything to extremely simple points. While football is essentially built on those simplicities, it is a tad more complex than that and teams do play slightly tactically different despite generally adopting a more physical pressing game in the past decade.

Sure but they work on tactical stuff in training. Scholes would have. He obviously knows training and ideas are part of it.

But come game day it has to be remembered these guys are footballers for a reason. They're good at it. They know how to do it.

But if you fill their heads with instruction, particularly on the ball, you'll likely stifle them.

Our players first half against Leicester looked like they actually forgot the point of the game. Just drowned by instruction instead. Terrified of passing forwards.

I'm with Scholes. Work on off the ball shape, have general principles.

But come the first whistle it is pretty simple. Let the players have a go at showing their ability.

 

[SilentWitness]

Sure but they work on tactical stuff in training. Scholes would have. He obviously knows training and ideas are part of it.

But come game day it has to be remembered these guys are footballers for a reason. They're good at it. They know how to do it.

But if you fill their heads with instruction, particularly on the ball, you'll likely stifle them.

Our players first half against Leicester looked like they actually forgot the point of the game. Just drowned by instruction instead. Terrified of passing forwards.

I'm with Scholes. Work on off the ball shape, have general principles.

But come the first whistle it is pretty simple. Let the players have a go at showing their ability.

Have you heard of Pep and Klopp?

 

[Marwood]

So....tactics?

Well not really. Because I very much doubt that first half was what Amorim wanted to see.

It's confused players. Players kicking a ball with 10 thoughts in their mind.

 

[Marwood]

Have you heard of Pep and Klopp?

I don’t get lumping those two together in this context but I'd say imagine what Pep's football would be like without a very good bunch of players.

Probably some paint drying somewhere hopefully.

 

[SilentWitness]

I don’t get lumping those two together in this context but I'd say imagine what Pep's football would be like without a very good bunch of players.

Probably some paint drying somewhere hopefully.

That both have clear tactical principles and instructions that they ask their players to stick to and unfortunately 'stifle' yet they were the leading managers and clubs in English football in the past 5-10 years. What you're suggesting in terms of it being as simple as letting players go out and show their ability and having general principles is just silly.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Well not really. Because I very much doubt that first half was what Amorim wanted to see.

It's confused players. Players kicking a ball with 10 thoughts in their mind.

Because the other team will try to impose their game plan on us? So you get a contest of tactics, quality, fitness, mentality etc.

 

[Marwood]

That both have clear tactical principles and instructions that they ask their players to stick to and unfortunately 'stifle' yet they were the leading managers and clubs in English football in the past 5-10 years. What you're suggesting in terms of it being as simple as letting players go out and show their ability and having general principles is just silly.

I do I don’t think Scholes or anyone is saying just go out and do whatever. You've gone to an extreme.

To me Klopp has principles and instructions sure. No manager or team of any era just twiddles their thumbs all week and turns up Saturday.

But if you look at Liverpool under Klopp at their best, that's a team that's allowed to play. On the ball those players are expressing themselves. TAA isn't spamming crosses and playing long balls against his will. He's doing that because that's his game. That's likely what he's always done since being a kid.

Get your shape sorted. Off the ball organisation. But ultimately once the whistle goes and there's an opponent facing you, there's a simple reality.

 

[SilentWitness]

I do I don’t think Scholes or anyone is saying just go out and do whatever. You've gone to an extreme.

I didn't say that. I used the words you did in your post.

 

[Cutch]

Scholes is a proper simpleton sometimes. His reasoning for not being hot on De Ligt is bewildering. He can’t give a reason other than there must be something wrong with De Ligt since he’s been at few big clubs already. Idolised him as a player though.

This is really pissing me off about Scholes as he was like this since day 1 when he'd obviously heard the myth about Erik Dier keeping MDL out of the Bayern team. Obviously hasn't seen him play to form his own opinion and now he's sticking with it despite MDL being decent.

Is it any wonder some of our players struggle to settle with this background noise from cretins like Scholes and Neville and influencers like Goldbridge making everything so critical and toxic.

 

[2 man midfield]

They should’ve got Marlon harewood for episode 69

 

[OverratedOpinion]

My biggest issue with Scholes is that he always sounds like it's a massive burden to discuss football whilst regularly signing up to do pundit work.

 

[Marwood]

Because the other team will try to impose their game plan on us? So you get a contest of tactics, quality, fitness, mentality etc.

But it's Leicester at home. We don't need the players to be consumed by Leicesters game plan.

We've trained all week on structure and set up. We've got better players. If we let the team go and play the sport of football as it should be, we win. That's what Scholes is saying. It's that simple.

The only way we don't win is if we tie ourselves in knots. Which is exactly what we did until we went a goal down.

I find Scholes boring on tv but his point about "just go score" is spot on. It sounds simple but it's exactly what this bunch of players need to hear.

First half against Leicester they really didn't seem to be trying to score ie the whole point of the game.

 

[Shinjch]

United's pundits really don't help the club's situation. Night and day compared to Liverpool's media people - even when they get knocked out of a cup by a team at the bottom of the league below them they try to turn it into a positive.

 

[tomaldinho1]

But it's Leicester at home. We don't need the players to be consumed by Leicesters game plan.

We've trained all week on structure and set up. We've got better players. If we let the team go and play the sport of football as it should be, we win. That's what Scholes is saying. It's that simple.

The only way we don't win is if we tie ourselves in knots. Which is exactly what we did until we went a goal down.

I find Scholes boring on tv but his point about "just go score" is spot on. It sounds simple but it's exactly what this bunch of players need to hear.

First half against Leicester they really didn't seem to be trying to score ie the whole point of the game.

What do you mean? Leicester aren't a passive entity.
They will have a plan to stop what Amorim wants to do, so surely you see how players knowing where they should be, where their team mates will be etc. better would be helpful? In turn, I am sure Amorim looks at them and we tweak things to protect against their strengths. There's so many variables, you can't just get better players and beat teams these days because every team is super fit, usually can press really well and can play in multiple different ways (apart from us apparently) to make life easier in certain situations.

 

[REDARMY45]

This is really pissing me off about Scholes as he was like this since day 1 when he'd obviously heard the myth about Erik Dier keeping MDL out of the Bayern team. Obviously hasn't seen him play to form his own opinion and now he's sticking with it despite MDL being decent.

Is it any wonder some of our players struggle to settle with this background noise from cretins like Scholes and Neville and influencers like Goldbridge making everything so critical and toxic.

They do absolutely zero research. Just waffle absolute nonsense which is easily disproven in about 5 minutes. Can’t believe there is no one that does a bit of research for them before they go on air.