The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

Andrade said:
Disagree. Since Mbappe has been there I've watched them a fair bit because I wanted to see the pairing. Neymar (when fit) runs the attack almost entirely. Mbappe just doesn't have that kind of ability, though he is an explosive player. I've always maintained that Neymar is the only player other than Messi who combines elite creativity and prolific scoring.

Neymar has been injured a lot though, that can't be denied.
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That's their role by design, Mbappe is still learning to be more of a playmaker and he led the team in assists last season, as a matter of fact, he's consistently had more assists than Neymar the past 4 years, despite having far less of the ball, but he's available and Neymar isn't, and that's the biggest issue with Neymar. If he were available as much as Mbappe, this would be a different conversation. But that's just numbers, the fact is I disagree with you on the eye test as well, Neymar simply hasn't been as good of a player as Mbappe the past couple of years. This season though? He's looking like the best player in the world, but it's 3-4 games.

One of the biggest change I've seen, and I think Galtier has a lot to do with it, is that Neymar hardly is dribbling now, he's cut out the show-boating that's gotten him into physical altercations, or injuries. He's not dragging on the ball as much as he used to, where he'd often lose it, and/or get nowhere with it. Mbappe has had far less 'fat' on his game than Neymar the past two years, there's no way I can objectively agree that Neymar has been better at that time, whether it's the stats or the eye test, neither agrees with that notion.
 
Sayros said:
That's their role by design, Mbappe is still learning to be more of a playmaker and he led the team in assists last season, as a matter of fact, he's consistently had more assists than Neymar the past 4 years, despite having far less of the ball, but he's available and Neymar isn't, and that's the biggest issue with Neymar. If he were available as much as Mbappe, this would be a different conversation. But that's just numbers, the fact is I disagree with you on the eye test as well, Neymar simply hasn't been as good of a player as Mbappe the past couple of years. This season though? He's looking like the best player in the world, but it's 3-4 games.

One of the biggest change I've seen, and I think Galtier has a lot to do with it, is that Neymar hardly is dribbling now, he's cut out the show-boating that's gotten him into physical altercations, or injuries. He's not dragging on the ball as much as he used to, where he'd often lose it, and/or get nowhere with it. Mbappe has had far less 'fat' on his game than Neymar the past two years, there's no way I can objectively agree that Neymar has been better at that time, whether it's the stats or the eye test, neither agrees with that notion.
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Playmaking isn't the same as assists, though. With Mbappe's pace, he gets to make lots of easy square passes after receiving a through ball. But in terms of through balls, creating chances, dribbling, etc. he's simply nowhere near Neymar and never was. It's true that Neymar was injured a lot and it really took a toll on his form but at least up until PSG fired Tuchel, he was clearly better than Mbappe, IMO. Availability is a different question. I guess one can argue that Mbappe has been the more important (not the better) player all things considered due to it but then again, PSG's only great UCL run happened when Neymar was in top form and better than him while PSG would've probably won the league even without both players.

Still, Mbappe has really upped his playmaking. Some of the passes he pulled off are really impressive (like the outside of the foot assist a while ago) but he just falls short of Neymar in terms of natural talent. So I doubt he'll ever peak as highly as Neymar did/still does. Especially since his much cited competitiveness and ambition - which were always brought up as an argument that he could compensate for a lack of talent compared to Neymar - by now has had a negative impact on his development.
 
What role has Neymar for Brazil at the moment? Is he playing through the middle?

It would seem like a waste to have him on the left and Vinicius on the bench.
 
Zehner said:
Playmaking isn't the same as assists, though. With Mbappe's pace, he gets to make lots of easy square passes after receiving a through ball. But in terms of through balls, creating chances, dribbling, etc. he's simply nowhere near Neymar and never was. It's true that Neymar was injured a lot and it really took a toll on his form but at least up until PSG fired Tuchel, he was clearly better than Mbappe, IMO. Availability is a different question. I guess one can argue that Mbappe has been the more important (not the better) player all things considered due to it but then again, PSG's only great UCL run happened when Neymar was in top form and better than him while PSG would've probably won the league even without both players.

Still, Mbappe has really upped his playmaking. Some of the passes he pulled off are really impressive (like the outside of the foot assist a while ago) but he just falls short of Neymar in terms of natural talent. So I doubt he'll ever peak as highly as Neymar did/still does. Especially since his much cited competitiveness and ambition - which were always brought up as an argument that he could compensate for a lack of talent compared to Neymar - by now has had a negative impact on his development.
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Agreed about the playmaking point, it's easier to make assists in Mbappe's position than Neymar, but if you just watch Mbappe's assists for PSG, you'll see they're very rarely as simple as square passes, he has great vision and passing with a huge variety. Neymar is often going to lead in chance-creation, a natural part of having the ball the most, but the difference between the two isn't anywhere as big as some make it out to be.

As far as talent, I really don't see Neymar as more talented than Mbappe at all. Talent is such a confusing terms because it feels often times people just talk about dribbling or technique. Neymar's a better dribbler, passer, and he's been a playmaker whereas Mbappe is a left-sided forward that was never asked to be a playmaker but is still developing those skills. I consider Mbappe a superior finisher, athlete, is more consistent, has better movement, manages to stay fit, and makes better decisions.

I think when their careers end, no one will objectively see Neymar as the better player than Mbappe when it's all said and done IMO, but to each their own. As far as the run to the UCL where they went far, one was the Covid weird CL season with only one KO game to the final where Mbappe was hurt and played at below 50%, and the other was the next year with Mbappe's scoring all the goals, including against Barcelona where Neymar wasn't even available. Neymar's best game for PSG in the UCL to me was against Bayern Munich with Pochettino, but even then he got put in great positions by Mbappe and missed several good chances of scoring while Mbappe got the goals needed to get through. I just don't agree that Neymar's been a better player than Mbappe in the last 3 years, in any context. Agreed about his first couple of years, after that it's easily been Mbappe to me.

The bolded part makes zero sense to me, because 1) there isn't a lack of talent, and 2) I don't see any negative impact on his development given that he's only getting better every single season despite some thinking he had peaked at 18 in Monaco. Mbappe is an all-time great talent, he's got nothing to compensate for in that regard. Maybe you can explain more why you think Neymar is more talented than Mbappe because I just don't see it.
 
Sayros said:
That's their role by design, Mbappe is still learning to be more of a playmaker and he led the team in assists last season, as a matter of fact, he's consistently had more assists than Neymar the past 4 years, despite having far less of the ball, but he's available and Neymar isn't, and that's the biggest issue with Neymar. If he were available as much as Mbappe, this would be a different conversation. But that's just numbers, the fact is I disagree with you on the eye test as well, Neymar simply hasn't been as good of a player as Mbappe the past couple of years. This season though? He's looking like the best player in the world, but it's 3-4 games.

One of the biggest change I've seen, and I think Galtier has a lot to do with it, is that Neymar hardly is dribbling now, he's cut out the show-boating that's gotten him into physical altercations, or injuries. He's not dragging on the ball as much as he used to, where he'd often lose it, and/or get nowhere with it. Mbappe has had far less 'fat' on his game than Neymar the past two years, there's no way I can objectively agree that Neymar has been better at that time, whether it's the stats or the eye test, neither agrees with that notion.
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First of all, assists and olaymaking are not the same thing. Further, Neymar is a better dribbler, a better passer, a better playmaker, has more skill and a better touch, and scores not that much less. Neymar is the better player if you leave aside injuries etc.

If both of them were slow, it would be glaringly obvious who the better footballer was.
 
Andrade said:
First of all, assists and olaymaking are not the same thing. Further, Neymar is a better dribbler, a better passer, a better playmaker, has more skill and a better touch, and scores not that much less. Neymar is the better player if you leave aside injuries etc.

If both of them were slow, it would be glaringly obvious who the better footballer was.
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Playmaking's goal is to make assists. Being upset that Mbappe is not a playmaker is like being upset Haaland isn't recovering the ball in midfield, it's not the role they play, and yet Mbappe's consistently provided more assists than Neymar, and I believe he's got more assists than anybody in the CL as well the past 3-4 seasons.

I already said Neymar is a better dribbler, passer, touch too I agree, I don't think about playmaker because that's not the role for Mbappe, even though he's great at it. Skill, I disagree with because Mbappe's range of finishes and movement is far more advanced than Neymar's ever was (that's a skill too, you know?), and he does score far more than Neymar, it's not a little difference in the last 3 years. The guy already has this trademark move that he gets everybody with of faking the far-post curler and firing it between the defender's leg to the near post. That's a skill that he uses over and over again and it works on everybody. There's a bigger gulf in the difference between Mbappe and Neymar's finishing and movement for example, than there is in their dribbling, passing, or first touch.

But again, we're comparing a 23 years old with a 30 years old, I think when both of their careers are done and dusted, it will be much clearer that Mbappe was the better player of the two. The numbers certainly back that up if we look at their first 5 seasons as professionals.

The last point is just....

If both of them had wheels, it'd be glaringly obvious who the better bicycle would be. I guess that's the best I can give that last point.
 
Sayros said:
Playmaking's goal is to make assists. Being upset that Mbappe is not a playmaker is like being upset Haaland isn't recovering the ball in midfield, it's not the role they play, and yet Mbappe's consistently provided more assists than Neymar, and I believe he's got more assists than anybody in the CL as well the past 3-4 seasons.
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No it isn't

Sayros said:
I already said Neymar is a better dribbler, passer, touch too I agree, I don't think about playmaker because that's not the role for Mbappe, even though he's great at it. Skill, I disagree with because Mbappe's range of finishes and movement is far more advanced than Neymar's ever was (that's a skill too, you know?), and he does score far more than Neymar, it's not a little difference in the last 3 years. The guy already has this trademark move that he gets everybody with of faking the far-post curler and firing it between the defender's leg to the near post. That's a skill that he uses over and over again and it works on everybody. There's a bigger gulf in the difference between Mbappe and Neymar's finishing and movement for example, than there is in their dribbling, passing, or first touch.
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Everything here is wrong IMO but I'll just address the bolded bit. No there isn't a bigger gulf. Neymar has 107 goals in 148 games for PSG. He's also scored 100 goals for 3 different clubs, which has been done by CR7, Romario and no one else in living memory. Mbappe has 175 goals in 219 games. So where is this massive gulf you are describing in scoring? It doesn't exist. And Neymar is not even a striker.

Sayros said:
But again, we're comparing a 23 years old with a 30 years old, I think when both of their careers are done and dusted, it will be much clearer that Mbappe was the better player of the two. The numbers certainly back that up if we look at their first 5 seasons as professionals.
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The numbers don't back it up at all.

Sayros said:
The last point is just....

If both of them had wheels, it'd be glaringly obvious who the better bicycle would be. I guess that's the best I can give that last point.
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It's a way of saying that Mbappe is very reliant on his speed. He does not have great skill, rather good skill allied with great pace. He gets compared to the original Ronaldo for example, but there is a huge difference in the footballing ability of those two players.
 
Personally don't think it's close between Neymar and Mbappe in talent.

Neymar has more innate talent quite clearly to me.

Mbappe's application of the talent he has is excellent though.
 
Gio said:
It's a difficult comparison. If the argument is Messi, Neymar and Cristiano scored more, then that is true. But Ronaldinho hit his peak when the game was more defensive - as the success of Greece, Porto, Benitez's Liverpool and Mourinho's Chelsea showed - and less imbalanced between the elite clubs and the rest. Barcelona scored 60-80 goals in La Liga every year from 1999 to 2008. And then in the decade that followed they averaged 95-116 goals a season, around 50% more. And the numbers of the attackers benefited accordingly.

And fundamentally he was a different type of player - much more a creator and much less a goalscorer. For every goal he scored, he provided 0.8 assists. Most modern wide forwards at top clubs provide just over half that. To give a few examples:

Ronaldinho 0.82 assists per goal scored
Neymar 0.62
Mbappe 0.51
Salah 0.50
Messi 0.47
Cristiano 0.32

If the argument is he didn't win as many games as Cristiano/Messi did, then that is true as well. In his defence I would say it's very hard to quantify how he unlocked space through his unparalleled close control and creativity. It's not unlike how Zidane's mastery of the ball - which drew defenders to him like a magnet - cannot be reduced to just goals and assists. Neymar and Messi had a lot of that too, but I think the difference is their teams more frequently enabled them to use that skill closer to goal.

Both Ronaldinho and Neymar remain great "what if"s to me. Ronaldinho because he failed to crown his status as the best player in the world at the 2006 World Cup and didn't a sustain a lengthy career at the top that would have added another layer to his legacy. And Neymar because he has been consistently brilliant in the build-up to the most decisive moments in his career and then hasn't quite been able to see that through, either through injury or his own in-game decision-making.
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Fair points.

Football was more defensive during Ronaldinho's peak and the gulf between the top clubs and mid-table clubs/relegation fodder wasn't as pronounced as it was during Messi's and CR7's pomp.

And I agree there's a degree of 'what-if' in his career, but I do think Neymar's 'what-ifs' are more out of his control than Ronaldinho's were.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Fair points.

Football was more defensive during Ronaldinho's peak and the gulf between the top clubs and mid-table clubs/relegation fodder wasn't as pronounced as it was during Messi's and CR7's pomp.

And I agree there's a degree of 'what-if' in his career, but I do think Neymar's 'what-ifs' are more out of his control than Ronaldinho's were.
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Yeah that’s fair. And it’s still within his gift to have a great World Cup that would really shift up how he’s viewed amongst the other greats.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Personally don't think it's close between Neymar and Mbappe in talent.

Neymar has more innate talent quite clearly to me.

Mbappe's application of the talent he has is excellent though.
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Fair comments
 
Andrade said:
It's a way of saying that Mbappe is very reliant on his speed. He does not have great skill, rather good skill allied with great pace. He gets compared to the original Ronaldo for example, but there is a huge difference in the footballing ability of those two players.
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Don't want to go around in circles again but I think you really underestimate Mbappé's dribbling and ability to make space and beat a man, also he must be one of the fastest elite players of all-time. But not enough credit is given to the application of pace. It's not enough to just be fast. Mbappé is an intelligent football who really knows how to make a run, when to take on a man to use that pace on the after burners. I've read articles where Mbappé speaks about that and how he works on that a lot.

For example when he scored against Real Madrid last year:

“I’m always concentrating,” Mbappé said. “I have the advantage of getting into the box very early, so I’m quickly master of my own destiny. I’m in control. They’re going backwards and the referee has already given a penalty tonight, so they don’t really know what to do."

That night As Miguel Delaney wrote:

With Mbappé, he’s so in control of his body and the ball, that he’s entirely unpredictable. The only thing a defender knows for certain is that he can burn you to the same degree in either direction. Again, it is instinct married with insight.



Look at this against the Champions League winners last year. He rinses the same right back who kept Salah quiet in the final.

The first chance from the pass in the highlights he has no right to beat Carvajal to it, most forwards in the world don't get to that ball. He does.
The second chance, again devastating turn and finish beyond most players to make the space like that.
Third chance, skins Carvajal, wins a penalty. Messi misses.
Fourth chance, again makes space out of nowhere and nearly scores.
Fifth chance, unbelievable skill to make the space and slots it in the corner. In the last minute of the game when it matters.

He's devastating. Mbappé is a phenomenon because of his pace of thought (in the mind) and movement, pace matters. Pace is a part of football, like any other skill.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Don't want to go around in circles again but I think you really underestimate Mbappé's dribbling and ability to make space and beat a man, also he must be one of the fastest elite players of all-time. But not enough credit is given to the application of pace. It's not enough to just be fast. Mbappé is an intelligent football who really knows how to make a run, when to take on a man to use that pace on the after burners. I've read articles where Mbappé speaks about that and how he works on that a lot.

For example when he scored against Real Madrid last year:

“I’m always concentrating,” Mbappé said. “I have the advantage of getting into the box very early, so I’m quickly master of my own destiny. I’m in control. They’re going backwards and the referee has already given a penalty tonight, so they don’t really know what to do."

That night As Miguel Delaney wrote:

With Mbappé, he’s so in control of his body and the ball, that he’s entirely unpredictable. The only thing a defender knows for certain is that he can burn you to the same degree in either direction. Again, it is instinct married with insight.



Look at this against the Champions League winners last year. He rinses the same right back who kept Salah quiet in the final.

The first chance from the pass in the highlights he has no right to beat Carvajal to it, most forwards in the world don't get to that ball. He does.
The second chance, again devastating turn and finish beyond most players to make the space like that.
Third chance, skins Carvajal, wins a penalty. Messi misses.
Fourth chance, again makes space out of nowhere and nearly scores.
Fifth chance, unbelievable skill to make the space and slots it in the corner. In the last minute of the game when it matters.

He's devastating. Mbappé is a phenomenon because of his pace of thought (in the mind) and movement, pace matters. Pace is a part of football, like any other skill.
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It's not underestimating him to say that he's not as skilful or as good a dribbler as R9.
 
Just the 7 goals and 6 assists in 5 Ligue 1 games this season.

I know for PSG it's basically a free for all shooting range but still...
 
The day this guy retires will be a sad day for football. There’s no one out here doing joga bonito like him.

 
TsuWave said:
The day this guy retires will be a sad day for football. There’s no one out here doing joga bonito like him.

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Delicious pass for Mbappe’s goal. Other than that, not that great. Two great opportunities there squandered by a poor pass (over hit to the right channel, and another not released through the middle when the player would’ve been clear through). Missed a big chance on the volley from point blank range too.

He’s a lavishly gifted player who I will never believe has pushed himself hard enough. The move to PSG took him from the cusp of greatness to a bit of a ‘what if?’ scenario. Hard to give too much credence to numbers and performances stacked up in France; and it seems a real shame to have a good chunk of his career valued against a handful of CL performances; where he has often failed to deliver, or been injured.

A player I would’ve loved to have seen stay in La Liga or test himself in the PL. Very aesthetically pleasing on his day.
 
He's simply been outstanding and the best player in Europe, but can he keep it up and stay fit throughout the season, or even past the world cup? Remains to be seen, I don't think I've seen a single season of him at PSG where he wasn't injured or coming back from injury in the games that mattered the most.
 
I saw something on BBC, apparently Mbappe has scored more goals than Neymar at PSG. How is that possible? Didn't Neymar join them first
 
JSArsenal said:
I saw something on BBC, apparently Mbappe has scored more goals than Neymar at PSG. How is that possible? Didn't Neymar join them first
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One is mainly the creator of the team while the other is the main goalscorer. And Neymar has had way more injuries than Mbappé.
 
JPRouve said:
One is mainly the creator of the team while the other is the main goalscorer. And Neymar has had way more injuries than Mbappé.
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Additionally, they joined PSG in the same transfer period.
 
JPRouve said:
One is mainly the creator of the team while the other is the main goalscorer. And Neymar has had way more injuries than Mbappé.
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Zehner said:
Additionally, they joined PSG in the same transfer period.
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Thanks, for some reason I thought Mbappe joined PSG way later. Given Neymar's injury history and failure to deliver a CL for PSG, did Barcelona get a good deal by selling him for 200M? Yeah they've been in turmoil themselves but still
 
JSArsenal said:
Thanks, for some reason I thought Mbappe joined PSG way later. Given Neymar's injury history and failure to deliver a CL for PSG, did Barcelona get a good deal by selling him for 200M? Yeah they've been in turmoil themselves but still
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It was a great deal for them, unfortunately it landed in the hands of Bartomeu and some could argue it was the start of their downfall until Xavi came in. But Barcelona didn't sell him, they were forced to let him go as his release clause was met and Neymar wanted to leave. Nothing Barcelona could do about it.
 
JSArsenal said:
Thanks, for some reason I thought Mbappe joined PSG way later. Given Neymar's injury history and failure to deliver a CL for PSG, did Barcelona get a good deal by selling him for 200M? Yeah they've been in turmoil themselves but still
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It was an awful deal for Barca and set off a series of incidents that set them back years imo. Neymar was crucial for Barca on days when Messi gets marked out of games in the CL. Barça still haven't found anyone of his quality on that left wing and instead spent insane money on Coutinho and Dembele. Neymar definitely realises he made a mistake and which is why he has often tried to come back.
 
Sayros said:
He's simply been outstanding and the best player in Europe, but can he keep it up and stay fit throughout the season, or even past the world cup? Remains to be seen, I don't think I've seen a single season of him at PSG where he wasn't injured or coming back from injury in the games that mattered the most.
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Glorious player having a glorious season but unfortunately he'll pick up his annual serious injury and then miss some games for his sister's birthday as well.
 
wr8_utd said:
It was an awful deal for Barca and set off a series of incidents that set them back years imo. Neymar was crucial for Barca on days when Messi gets marked out of games in the CL. Barça still haven't found anyone of his quality on that left wing and instead spent insane money on Coutinho and Dembele. Neymar definitely realises he made a mistake and which is why he has often tried to come back.
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He tried to come back during 1 transfer window.

And the deal was good, it's their inability to spend the money wisely that messed them up.
 
wr8_utd said:
Glorious player having a glorious season but unfortunately he'll pick up his annual serious injury and then miss some games for his sister's birthday as well.
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Yep, not to mention a world cup as well which adds a whole new host of opportunities for a major injury. Fortunately for Brazil, they're not as dependent on him as they might have been in the past, and same for PSG although right now you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who can have as much output as he's had. The biggest improvement I've noticed is he's not dragging on the ball as much and trying to dribble past everybody. He's very efficient and keeping himself out of unnecessary physical contact.
 
JSArsenal said:
Thanks, for some reason I thought Mbappe joined PSG way later. Given Neymar's injury history and failure to deliver a CL for PSG, did Barcelona get a good deal by selling him for 200M? Yeah they've been in turmoil themselves but still
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No. Neymar sustained contact injuries. There is no reason for them to happen if he was somewhere else.
 
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