The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

DWelbz19 said:
And again — Neymar’s stats are still very, very good. He’s not quite peak Messi/Ronaldo freak levels, but he’s consistently fantastic wherever he goes.
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I mean, someone jokingly called him ‘the Brazilian Jay Jay Okocha’. The way people are talking, you’d think he’d scored the same amount of goals as Jay Jay instead of OVER FOUR HUNDRED CAREER GOALS

The madness in this thread, seriously. I guess hate can make people blind.

I think the irrational haters should wait until PSG get knocked out of the CL. Then you can come back and say “see! I told you! he’s not a clutch tap-in getter!!” or whatever other craziness you want to come out with. Right now you just sound a bit silly.

Also; not being quite as good as Messi and Ronaldo over his career is not the grave crime that you guys seem to think it is.
 
Well one thing is certain his caf thread is on the same level as Messi and Ronaldo. Feck me, yes he's very gokd, he's also an annoying twat on the pitch thus the dislike.

In the end he's just a poor man's Robben with worse hair.
 
Can't we all just enjoy how entertaining he is when he is on fire?

He might never be Messi or Ronaldo consistency. But he sure has gone along way since that WC when he was laying on the pitch for 13 minutes.

Dude has certainly changed my views on him.
 
He’s blown it in the sense that being a massive douche is the first thing people think about him. His talent is second.
 
Zehner said:
That's simply not true. You said it was a great cutback by Di Maria but the whole sequence of play only came to be because Neymar took four opponent players out of the game dribbling from the halfway line to the box. If that doesn't count as creating a chance for himself then nobody has ever created a chance for himself in the history of football.

I mean, I can even show you the events:



Through ball for Mbappe chance (0:53)
Missed "chance" after deflected cutback (1:58)
Missed chance in 1 on 1 against Neuer (3:27)
First post after step overs (4:05)
Crossbar after dribbling Coman (4:20)
Second post after initiating the attack by outplaying three players (4:40)
Missed chance after high through ball (5:33)
Missed Di Maria cutback after initiating the attack by outplaying 5 (!) players (5:55)
Setting up Kean run (7:25)
Setting up Mbappe offside goal (7:36)
Setting up Mbappe run (7:48)
Setting up Mbappe run who cuts it back but Neuer intercepts (8:10)

Those are four chances he created for himself and three he created for others. You're in the wrong mate.
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I'm sorry to break this to you but it really doesn't. Being involved in a move or starting a move or doing something brilliant in the build up of a sequence does not equate to you creating a chance for yourself, not that anything he did there was worthy of that fatuous hyperbole anyway. Di Maria still has all the work ahead of him and needs an incredible first touch and a great dribble to make something out of that move, only to find no one alert enough to convert. If this to you is the example of chance creation (a move that some people wouldn't even list as a chance of any kind), then it's no wonder you've managed to concoct the rest of your interpretation.

What's the other one you count as fourth?

The contention that he created three chances for others is completely baseless. You're still trying to, with a straight face, smuggle an offside pass in a list of his supposed accomplishments. Two incidents where Neuer intercepted the ball aren't chances. Setting up someone on a run on the wing (one of which is also an offside) is not creating a chance either.

You're engaged in a frivolous dressing up of quite ordinary events as something they were not, and then too add insult to injury you're doing some frivolous counting to boot.
 
I have an irrational dislike of this guy. I hope he doesn't win the ballon d'or, but its looking very likely this year.

Realistically who are his competitors for Ballon d'or this year if PSG wins the CL?

Off the top of my head:

Mbappe (I think it will be between the two of them.)
Lewandowski (Looks bleak at this stage)
De Bruyne (Tough one. A dark horse here. Will need to win the CL and probably the Euros too)
Messi (I think he's done)
Ronaldo (Similar to Messi. Will need need Euros victory)
 
NinjaZombie said:
Still a 0-1 loss at home, with him missing a hatful of chances.

Good player, but we're supposed to accept him as the best player in the world now that Messi and Ronaldo are past their primes?

Bayern were chasing the game and needed two goals. It was a given that him, Di Maria and Mbappe would have spaces to operate in to show their class. They didn't even score one goal.

I thought it was a poor game to be honest. By both teams. PSG for wasting their chances, Bayern for not being incisive enough.
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Messi started the season quite poorly and I thought it might be curtains but he’s hit form in the last few months and he might well still be the best. But it’s between him and Neymar, no one else is in the discussion for me. Cristiano is still gonna get you goals but he’s just too limited at this stage.
 
DWelbz19 said:
His problem is/was injuries, not playing in France. Neymar has been in Paris for the same amount of years as he was at Barca but the minutes at Barcelona are around 15,000~ whilst at PSG he’s down at 9,000~.
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My guess is that had he stayed in Barcelona he could have been seen lot differently. Playing in France and playing in Spain are two different things.

Oly Francis said:
Neymar is a far more versatile players than most you mention. He's an amazing passer, can dribble an entire team and is a good finisher (bar last night). His football IQ is also very high and he sees things most players don't on the pitch even at the highest level. Salah and '21 Ronaldo are just not even remotely in the conversation.
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Versatile? John O'Shea played pretty much every role in ManUtd but I wouldn't say he is best player. Just because he is versatile.

For me, Ronaldo is still level above. Without shadow of a doubt.

I'm curious. Dribble entire team? What team? When?

paraguayo said:
Salah better than Neymar? Ok..:rolleyes:
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Ladron de redcafe said:
Do you actually believe that Kane and Salah are better than Neymar? I don't think they're even within 2 tiers of him. I personally believe there's an enormous gap between someone like him and those two.

It has nothing to do with being "fun" to watch. I struggle to see what argument current Ronaldo has over Neymar.
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I'm not saying they are or they aren't. But looking at the stats they could definitly be up there if not better. Does that make them better players in reality? Well, it is about what people want and expect from a football player. What people like. Why would we rank Neymar higher than for example Salah, who have been absolutly brilliant since returning to Premier League? One league that is concidered one of the best compared to League 1? Still, not saying who is better. But why couldn't we say Salah is better? Is it because Neymar is "showman" while Salah is more "silent" goalscorer?
 
Moonwalker said:
I'm sorry to break this to you but it really doesn't. Being involved in a move or starting a move or doing something brilliant in the build up of a sequence does not equate to you creating a chance for yourself, not that anything he did there was worthy of that fatuous hyperbole anyway. Di Maria still has all the work ahead of him and needs an incredible first touch and a great dribble to make something out of that move, only to find no one alert enough to convert. If this to you is the example of chance creation (a move that some people wouldn't even list as a chance of any kind), then it's no wonder you've managed to concoct the rest of your interpretation.

What's the other one you count as fourth?

The contention that he created three chances for others is completely baseless. You're still trying to, with a straight face, smuggle an offside pass in a list of his supposed accomplishments. Two incidents where Neuer intercepted the ball aren't chances. Setting up someone on a run on the wing (one of which is also an offside) is not creating a chance either.

You're engaged in a frivolous dressing up of quite ordinary events as something they were not, and then too add insult to injury you're doing some frivolous counting to boot.
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I'm sorry but this sounds as if you've never played football in yourself. If the video with the time marks didn't change your mind I see no point in continuing this conversation, we're just too far off then.
 
90 + 5min said:
Versatile? John O'Shea played pretty much every role in ManUtd but I wouldn't say he is best player. Just because he is versatile.

For me, Ronaldo is still level above. Without shadow of a doubt.

I'm curious. Dribble entire team? What team? When?
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Oh come on, don't pretend you don't understand, of course i'd rate higher a guy who can score AND pass AND dribble at a world class level.

I don't know in what world someone can consider Ronaldo is still above Neymar "without shadow of a doubt". Neymar is the center piece of a team who reached the CL semi finals 2 years in a row, he has a tremendous impact on his team and can create chances out of thin air, at one point you have to let Ronnie go.

What team? When ? Start here, i even set you the time stamp :

 
Zehner said:
I'm sorry but this sounds as if you've never played football in yourself. If the video with the time marks didn't change your mind I see no point in continuing this conversation, we're just too far off then.
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If you are linking a video at all (which is redundant as we've both seen the game) you are supposed to at least supplement it with an argument. Preferably one that isn't in complete discord with what's shown in it.

It's no surprise then that it didn't change my mind. Adieu.
 
Oly Francis said:
Oh come on, don't pretend you don't understand, of course i'd rate higher a guy who can score AND pass AND dribble at a world class level.

I don't know in what world someone can consider Ronaldo is still above Neymar "without shadow of a doubt". Neymar is the center piece of a team who reached the CL semi finals 2 years in a row, he has a tremendous impact on his team and can create chances out of thin air, at one point you have to let Ronnie go.

What team? When ? Start here, i even set you the time stamp :

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He went past 2 players. Not exactly whole team.

When it comes to Ronaldo, he have been carring every team on his shoulder and still is since breaking out that season with us. Without him, Juventus today would be even worse off.
 
Infordin said:
Goals do not come out of thin air. The art of creating a goal involves the work of multiple creative players before the final touch ends up in the back of the net. A player like Neymar significantly increases the goal output of PSG even if he is not the one who has the final touch before the ball flies in the back of the net.

Neymar for PSG is a significantly better player than Ronaldo for Juventus, even if the latter has scored more goals for his club.
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Now you cut and pasted my post. I wrote I want technical skills to be converted in to goals. I personally feel that Neymar has a higher level than Ronaldo atm, but it is not a huge difference. Ronaldo is after all the second best goal scorer in all the big leagues. It’s also about availability. Neymar has had a lot of injuries and only started 10 league matches this season, and on top that just got his second red card, in a stupid way I might add.
When you play that little football it’s hard to have a big impact for your team.

Zehner said:
Yes, if you only look at the last touch before the ball passes the line, that's a valid way of looking at things. Following that logic the mailman who's delivering my Amazon orders has to be a great retailer, producer and product designer ;)
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I’m sorry but in the end it’s competitive football, not a circus. We don’t give the prize to the best sprinter after 90 metres but to the one who finishes 100 metres first. The last touch is important. If there is no goal the rest was actually worth nothing when it comes to impact on the game.
 
A-man said:
Now you cut and pasted my post. I wrote I want technical skills to be converted in to goals. I personally feel that Neymar has a higher level than Ronaldo atm, but it is not a huge difference. Ronaldo is after all the second best goal scorer in all the big leagues. It’s also about availability. Neymar has had a lot of injuries and only started 10 league matches this season, and on top that just got his second red card, in a stupid way I might add.
When you play that little football it’s hard to have a big impact for your team.


I’m sorry but in the end it’s competitive football, not a circus. We don’t give the prize to the best sprinter after 90 metres but to the one who finishes 100 metres first. The last touch is important. If there is no goal the rest was actually worth nothing when it comes to impact on the game.
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Yes but in a relay run we don't give all the credit to the last athlete either but the largest part of it to the fastest runner, no matter if he's first, last or anything inbetween in the row.
 
Zehner said:
Yes but in a relay run we don't give all the credit to the last athlete either but the largest part of it to the fastest runner, no matter if he's first, last or anything inbetween in the row.
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If technical beautiful football doesn’t end up in goal it was just nice to watch but no impact. The goals are not irrelevant.
 
A-man said:
If technical beautiful football doesn’t end up in goal it was just nice to watch but no impact. The goals are not irrelevant.
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So if I play an identical pass two times, one time the striker finishes and one time he doesn't in the exact same situation, the first was a better play than the second?
 
Zehner said:
So if I play an identical pass two times, one time the striker finishes and one time he doesn't in the exact same situation, the first was a better play than the second?
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In our example it was our player who screw up both opportunities.
Edit: I’m not sure if you’re talking about this match or Neymar in general. If it is this match, he had a good game but screw up many opportunities. He has done that in the past as well. For me the ability to also score goals when you get the chance is a vital part of how I rate the performance. If a player feeds the others with perfect pass after perfect pass but they fail to score, that is another thing and not what we saw. He also has Mbappé as striker which should help him to shine.
 
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A-man said:
In our example it was our player who screw up both opportunities.
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So if I play a great through ball and get it back in front of the keeper, missing the shot makes my previous pass worse?
 
Zehner said:
So if I play a great through ball and get it back in front of the keeper, missing the shot makes my previous pass worse?
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I’m not even sure what you are talking about anymore.

If a player screw up a lot of great opportunities to score, it with influence my rating negatively compared to if he scored. Simple as that.
 
A-man said:
If technical beautiful football doesn’t end up in goal it was just nice to watch but no impact. The goals are not irrelevant.
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That's a terrible terrible take. Neymar sometimes played as a midfielder, coming low on the pitch to get the ball under pressure and offer solutions to the defenders. Doesn't it have an impact? Of course it does.
 
A-man said:
I’m not even sure what you are talking about anymore.

If a player screw up a lot of great opportunities to score, it with influence my rating negatively compared to if he scored. Simple as that.
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Of course it does. But it doesn't make the good actions before disappear.
 
Oly Francis said:
That's a terrible terrible take. Neymar sometimes played as a midfielder, coming low on the pitch to get the ball under pressure and offer solutions to the defenders. Doesn't it have an impact? Of course it does.
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Absolutely. Now my focus was on the attack, but of course he can do a good defensive job, a good press etc. When he is mentioned as the best in the world it is often in the role as an attacker, not DM.
 
A-man said:
Absolutely. Now my focus was on the attack, but of course he can do a good defensive job, a good press etc. When he is mentioned as the best in the world it is often in the role as an attacker, not DM.
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Ok sorry I thought it was an overall assessment.
 
Oly Francis said:
Ok sorry I thought it was an overall assessment.
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I guess it was but I was maybe only focusing on the attack and forgetting the rest :) But you are right, and in modern football the press and help in defence is a big part for an attacking midfielder, winger or striker.
 
I thought he and Mbappe's lack of defensive workrate gave City a way back into the game. City pushed their fullbacks up and they were able to build up with ease and retain the ball in the final third. With the PSG midfielders forced deep, both of them were feeding on scraps the entire half.

On the ball he was brilliant. You look at a similar player like Mahrez and the difference in quality is night and day. And Mahrez himself is having a pretty good season.
 
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90 + 5min said:
He went past 2 players. Not exactly whole team.

When it comes to Ronaldo, he have been carring every team on his shoulder and still is since breaking out that season with us. Without him, Juventus today would be even worse off.
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The thing for Ronaldo when comparing to Neymar is goals. Ronaldo in his Madrid days was even worse in many a game then Neymar was today (eg vs Bayern, vs Atletico) but he would still score a goal, or even a hattrick.

On the other hand Neymar is easily better at all the technical aspects of the game even comparing to peak Cristiano.

But at the end of the day goals win you matches and goals win you recognition which the recipe for Cristiano's individual awards that Neymar may never win.
 
mshnsh said:
The thing for Ronaldo when comparing to Neymar is goals. Ronaldo in his Madrid days was even worse in many a game then Neymar was today (eg vs Bayern, vs Atletico) but he would still score a goal, or even a hattrick.

On the other hand Neymar is easily better at all the technical aspects of the game even comparing to peak Cristiano.

But at the end of the day goals win you matches and goals win you recognition which the recipe for Cristiano's individual awards that Neymar may never win.
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Neymar easily better technically? Not a chance. Peak Cristiano could do everything with the ball Neymar can.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
One goal? Oof that's not good.

I thought both were poor but Neymar was the worse of the two.
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He has been injured in most of the knock-outs too.

I thought Neymar was somewhat good in the 1st half.

I think Mbappe had the least touches out of any outfield player. Was the worst player on the field imo.
 
VorZakone said:
Neymar easily better technically? Not a chance. Peak Cristiano could do everything with the ball Neymar can.
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Nop. Having seen both players I disagree completely.

Ronaldo's dribbles completed maxed at 3.3 per game in 09/10. Thereafter 2 to 2.5 per game for next 4 seasons. Than around 1 or less per game in all subsequent seasons. Neymar every season completes 5 to 6 dribbles per game.

Ronaldo's ball skills were also never near what Neymar can produce. Which is why he cut them out of his game significantly and even when he did them, they were pointless eg a flick when a simple pass would do. Neymar is the best at tricks and flicks since Ronaldinho.

Than I don't think anyone can argue that Neymar is a better passer, has better vision and creativity than any version of Cristiano.

The main thing for Ronaldo is mentality and goals. Ronaldo has the strongest mind of all the players I have seen; he is a winner in his head and that translates to winning on the pitch; he has wrung the absolute most out of what he has.
 
mshnsh said:
The thing for Ronaldo when comparing to Neymar is goals. Ronaldo in his Madrid days was even worse in many a game then Neymar was today (eg vs Bayern, vs Atletico) but he would still score a goal, or even a hattrick.

On the other hand Neymar is easily better at all the technical aspects of the game even comparing to peak Cristiano.

But at the end of the day goals win you matches and goals win you recognition which the recipe for Cristiano's individual awards that Neymar may never win.
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You really didn't notice Ronaldo in his prime. He had it all.
 
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