The myth around Shay Given

Brwned said:
Seems like you've kind of missed the point, and wasted your time repeating yourself(for about the 100th time).

Seems like you're desperately trying to prove a point I've already conceded is entirely possible, and seemingly more likely to be true.

Whether you want to accept that I've admitted there's every chance I'm wrong or not is upto you, but it seems like you're the only one who has a problem with it. I thought something before, people have made decent arguments, I've admitted my logic was in all likelihood flawed.

Think it's about time you let it go.

:)
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I agree with you brwned, he is a good, if not very good keeper but not in the top five in the world.

my top five would be:

1) Buffon
2) Casillas
3) Caesar
4) VDS
5) Reina

it would be interesting to see Reina play for the national team if casillas wasnt there, casillas is 28 and Reina 27, to judge his full potential but he does play well for liverpool, even if he is a cock for running down the field for goals/arguements with the ref
 
Brwned said:
Seems like you've kind of missed the point, and wasted your time repeating yourself(for about the 100th time).
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Good false dilemma there; I believe I've hit some points and not wasted my time.

Brwned said:
Seems like you're desperately trying to prove a point I've already conceded is entirely possible, and seemingly more likely to be true.
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You've said it may be possible, but then you have posts like this:

Brwned said:
Besides the fact that we've been looking for a keeper for at least half of this decade and not once have we went in for Given.
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Brwned said:
Arsenal have brought in two new keepers from abroad rather than get Given since replacing Seaman.
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Brwned said:
The fact that each of the fop four, as well as Spurs, Villa etc. have ignored Given time and again despite needing a keeper at various points would indicate managers have similar concerns.
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For someone who conveniently puts a "get-out" clause in their post, yet continues on this so-called "less-likely" possibility trend of thought, it does look very weird.

If you're really sitting on the fence and don't know which position you're going to take, then do sit on the fence properly.

Brwned said:
Think it's about time you let it go.

:)
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What makes you think debate against you is bad and needs to be "let gone"?
 
x42bn6 said:
What makes you think debate against you is bad and needs to be "let gone"?
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"Maybe that's fine in your little bubble."

That bit. I'd imagine arguing with someone who's oblivious to everything else around him, and can't appreciate other people's opinions, isn't very good or enjoyable.

I'm on the fence.
 
Brwned said:
"Maybe that's fine in your little bubble."

That bit. I'd imagine arguing with someone who's oblivious to everything else around him, and can't appreciate other people's opinions, isn't very good or enjoyable.

I'm on the fence.
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:lol: Go cry me a river. In the two posts where you think you may have put some false assumptions in, you continue to mash home the points how he concedes so many goals (i.e. not necessarily his fault) and why no big team is after him (i.e. not quite good enough for them). This is the "bubble" - where for someone who claims I "can't appreciate other people's opinions", you certainly have a difficult time letting these opinions yourself!
 
x42bn6 said:
:lol: Go cry me a river. In the two posts where you think you may have put some false assumptions in, you continue to mash home the points how he concedes so many goals (i.e. not necessarily his fault) and why no big team is after him (i.e. not quite good enough for them). This is the "bubble" - where for someone who claims I "can't appreciate other people's opinions", you certainly have a difficult time letting these opinions yourself!
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You're taking everything I say the wrong way.

I was never saying you can't appreciate other people's opinions, read it again and you might understand better.
 
Name Changed said:
Giovani Trappatoni? Is he not a good judge of player in your opinion? That's just one of many...
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For feck's sake his national team manager? He's not going to come out and say 'Given's a bit shite - looks as if the fecker is glued to his fecking line'.
 
Brwned said:
Besides the fact that we've been looking for a keeper for at least half of this decade and not once have we went in for Given.

Arsenal have brought in two new keepers from abroad rather than get Given since replacing Seaman.

The fact that each of the fop four, as well as Spurs, Villa etc. have ignored Given time and again despite needing a keeper at various points would indicate managers have similar concerns.

I'll admit I've probably looked into things too deep to prove a point, everyone does it when they strongly disagree with something - they look into things too much - and I'd very rarely made such outlandish statements but I just find it very hard to understand why anyone sees him as world class, and why people tend to think that if a keeper hasn't made a blunder or a fool of himself then he's not at fault for the goal. It's like saying a striker's not at fault for not scoring goals if he doesn't miss loads of easy chances, which obviously isn't the case as it's his job to get into positions to score the goals as well as finish them.

He's looked more vocal in the past two games though, I'll give him that.
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So what if United, Liverpool or whoever have not come in for him? In United's case and most definitely in Arsenal's case, that was probably a huge mistake. City are reaping the rewards now of having a top class keeper.

You gave your opinion and said Given is not a top class goalkeeper, and that is an opinion, not fact. All evidence points to the contrary. He is a brilliant shot stopper. He is not brilliant on crosses, but he is no less of a flapper than Van Der Sar and Cech for example, who have made many mistakes themselves. Every manager/player that I have heard speak about Given say he is a top class goalkeeper. Your opinion is based on nothing but opinion. There is nothing to back up your claim that he is not top class except the fact that SAF or Wenger, etc haven't bought him. He has been a top goalkeeper for years and probably will be for a few more. He is no Buffon, he is no Cassilas but there is feck all of a difference between him and any other goalkeeper around.
 
Didn't Trappatoni make some negative comments about Stephen Reid?
 
peterstorey said:
For feck's sake his national team manager? He's not going to come out and say 'Given's a bit shite - looks as if the fecker is glued to his fecking line'.
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Can you name one player/manager who has ever said anything negative about him? Does Trap claim that Glenn Whelan is one of the best three midfielders in the world? Does he claim Robbie Keane is one of the best strikers in the world? Does he claim that Kevin Kilbane is one of the best left backs in the world? No, his praise is for Shay Given.
 
Name Changed said:
You gave your opinion and said Given is not a top class goalkeeper, and that is an opinion, not fact.
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I've not tried to dress up my opinion as fact, so I see no reason for you to point this out.
 
Name Changed said:
Can you name one player/manager who has ever said anything negative about him? Does Trap claim that Glenn Whelan is one of the best three midfielders in the world? Does he claim Robbie Keane is one of the best strikers in the world? Does he claim that Kevin Kilbane is one of the best left backs in the world? No, his praise is for Shay Given.
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Because he's the only decent player in the fecking team. Who else are you going to big up?
 
Brwned said:
I've not tried to dress up my opinion as fact, so I see no reason for you to point this out.
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Try to answer whole replies and not single out one particular sentence that you disagree with and reply to that in an effort to make yourself appear correct.

And when you say things like "The myth around Shay Given" and saying things like Shay Given was actually the problem for Newcastle's defending, without having anything to back up this point, comes across as a fact and not opinion. Normally, if people are so adamant in defence of a particular opinion, they will have something to back up their opinions, apart from their other opinions.
 
Name Changed said:
So what if United, Liverpool or whoever have not come in for him? In United's case and most definitely in Arsenal's case, that was probably a huge mistake. City are reaping the rewards now of having a top class keeper.
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Are they?

They've conceeded 27 goals so far in the league this season. Despite being 13 points better than this time last season (with a game in hand too), they're only three goals conceeded better off than last season
 
B Cantona said:
Are they?

They've conceeded 27 goals so far in the league this season. Despite being 13 points better than this time last season (with a game in hand too), they're only three goals conceeded better off than last season
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I wonder how many extra goals they would have conceded or how many less points they would have this season if they hadn't of had Shay Given, considering he has been extremely good for them so far?
 
Anyone got shots on target to goals conceded stats? Almunia would be pretty crap I reckon.
 
I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the keepers down the bottom end of the table tend to have better averages when it comes to shots on target/conceded due to them being called into action more often? I can't remember where I read it or heard it and could be wrong.
 
I know most of the caf will disagree with this because he made a youtube worthy save or two, but I thought he was complete dogturd tonight. Marooned to his line, never comes out to help his defenders and bizarrely decided to try and save an invisible beach ball as our second was going in the other corner.
 
defaintely a fantastic shot stopper. his reaction save on fletcher showed his reflexes and can only bail his team out so many times.

I havent followed the whole thread but he is a very good keeper. great/world class is up for debate but you can do alot worse than shay given.
 
I didn't think he was bad. Didn't come out though like you said, but otherwise looked pretty solid.
 
He didn't come out for Giggsy's cross to Rooney because he couldn't.
 
MST3K said:
defaintely a fantastic shot stopper. his reaction save on fletcher showed his reflexes and can only bail his team out so many times.

I havent followed the whole thread but he is a very good keeper. great/world class is up for debate but you can do alot worse than shay given.
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Why can't people accept this ... well said.

The myth surrounds more suspect members of City's defence.
 
I've seen him do much better on crosses. My opinion hasnt changed on him, it's his communication that lets him down and that's a big flaw. Look at how much more organised our back 4 is with Edwin back between the sticks.

Given = Very good goalkeeper. Over rated by many because of his ability to make flashy saves.
 
good shot stopper but questionable as to how good he is organising a defence. also whats with his spastic "BRAAHHHHHHHHHH" when he makes a good save? I half expect him to start "hulking up".
 
The muppet in me tells me that he ll soon end up as a reserve to Buffon...
 
x42bn6 said:
Then I don't get what you are talking about. That initial quote is by me to you. Who are you referring to?
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Well, me.

By saying I was in a bubble, I thought that implied you thought I couldn't appreciate other people's opinions(in this case, not necessarily in general), and that would be why it'd be frustrating for you to debate it with me(and it did seem you were getting frustrated).
 
All keepers make mistakes. The fact its surprising when Given makes a mistake like tonight suggests he doesn't do it that often.
 
Ixion said:
All keepers make mistakes. The fact its surprising when Given makes a mistake like tonight suggests he doesn't do it that often.
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He did on Saturday too and concedes lots for a reason despite being a good shot stopper

the freakish mistake tonight i will excuse as he is a super shot stopper




he is crap at crosses and his worse mistake at the end should have been punished with a goal
 
That's a first in a very long time for Shay, a clanger. He'll get over it.

For what it's worth, I think that's a good result for City.
 
Brwned said:
Well, me.

By saying I was in a bubble, I thought that implied you thought I couldn't appreciate other people's opinions(in this case, not necessarily in general), and that would be why it'd be frustrating for you to debate it with me(and it did seem you were getting frustrated).
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That's some heavy stuff Brwned.
 
Where are we all on this now? Had noticed that Shay Given's name had come up a lot in the overrated players thread so I wondered if some people might've changed their mind?

Is he still world class?
 
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