The myth around Shay Given

Brwned said:
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Don't like being proved wrong by a 19 year old all the time then don't come on here.
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you have proved feck all wrong...

thats the point

you just go on and fecking on and fecking on

you talk bollocks... then make up stats to prove a point... then when somebody points out your stats are shite stats dont matter and you go on and and and on again pretending you know everything... certainly saying you know more than coaches managers and footballers because of your experience of living with mummy and daddy who say their little boy is "eber so cleber" and like a spoilt little cnut you have let it fester inside that oh so punchable head of yours...
 
Name Changed said:
Sorry, just to backup my earlier point, I just had a quick scout and found a quote from Trap.

here

Trapattoni is of the opinion that Shay Given is as good as Gigi Buffon. He was worked with both and that is his opinion.
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exactly...
just as the birmingham keeper said in my post before... just as hughes says...
just as many keepers who provide commentary and punditry on the tv say...

but brwned thinks he knows better...
 
EZee said:
you have proved feck all wrong...

thats the point

you just go on and fecking on and fecking on

you talk bollocks... then make up stats to prove a point... then when somebody points out your stats are shite stats dont matter and you go on and and and on again pretending you know everything... certainly saying you know more than coaches managers and footballers because of your experience of living with mummy and daddy who say their little boy is "eber so cleber" and like a spoilt little cnut you have let it fester inside that oh so punchable head of yours...
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Aww and look who's getting all wound up now.

Kind of backfired there, eh?
 
This all certainly getting heated. while i dont agree with all of Ezee's sentiments i definitely would say that brwned has a habit of not really engaging any opinion other than is own in any way other than offering stats or saying something to make it seem as if another opinion is so absurd the poster obviously hasnt the capacity to understand his knowledge of football. i agree with brwned alot but any time i havent in the past it is the exact same as talking to a wall. its what has made him such a controversial post,with newbies saying they dont want a promotion as they fear their opinions would be brwned and they had a go at him about this again.

makes for fun to the neutral i suppose
 
Brwned said:
Bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks. If you want me to bring up some quotes about how well VDS organises the defence from Sir Alex I can do it to show clearly they have to organise the defence to some extent.
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a goalkeeper has responsibility for organising walls for free kicks

a goalkeeper can shout at defenders after they feck up or tell them to do something different

a goalkeeper can communicate effectively with defenders to a degree

how, can you explain, is it shay givens fault when the team in front of him are overun by attackers, they balls up their offside trap or titus bramble kicked the air or made a monumetal feck up

fair enough goalkeepers do have some responsibility in communcating with a defense but its not their responsibility to tell defenders when to step up and play offside, when to tackle and when to hold the attacker up

as you said VDS is said to organise the defense well but a lot of our defensive strength is down to the quality and experience of our defenders, the fact that we dominate games with possession and the protection that our midfield gives us

liverpool over the last few seasons haven't conceded many goals but that has as much to do with carragher/agger/hyypia and the protection that mascherano particularly and alonso/lucas gave in playing the holding role
 
Brwned said:
Aww and look who's getting all wound up now.

Kind of backfired there, eh?
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oh and i actually have a sparring session with rough house tonight so tbh i need to be wound up...

so in fairness your arrogance has served a puropse today
 
cina said:
A hell of a lot of international countries (England included) would take Given as first choice keeper in a heartbeat. Surely that shows how high he should be ranked amongst the worlds goalkeepers?
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Or that there's a dearth of decent, reliable keepers (see England).
 
MrMarcello said:
Meola carried the US for years, then Kelller did so at a higher level, and then Friedel was magnificent for the US.

Would you classify any of three as world class?
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No, because they're not as good as Given or anyone else up at such a level.
 
Saving from Lampard in such an important encounter against a great team in the circumstances > defoe from spurs, hit his foot rather than him saving it.

Given has been a matchwinner for many years, Howard hasn't won or saved Everton anywhere near as many occasions.

It's silly to even compare the two, Givens in a different class.
 
Raees said:
Tim fecking howard my ass.
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Brwned said:
Tim Howard saves penalties very well, actually.

Might've saved that too.

So does Reina, and Friedel actually.

Being able to save penalties is an asset in itself, one I'd never commented on either way.
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Like I said, Tim Howard's very good at saving penalties too. He saved the game for Everton just like Given did yesterday, which apparently disproved my entire idea.

Evidently not, lots of keepers are good at penalties.
 
Dear oh dear. I've read about a third of this thread and just can't be arsed with the rest.

Brwned, how can you possibly look at the City back 5 and conclude that Given is the weak link? Everyone can see that City are an unbalanced squad and that they tried to quickly assemble a defense capable of backing up an assault on the top 4 but they had to compromise as their original targets weren't available.

Given is a top quality keeper, there is absolutely no myth there whatsoever, but Lescott and Toure are not a top class centre back pairing. Lescott lacks class and composure and Toure's best days are behind him.

On top of that, Bridges most recent performances have been the subject of wide spread ridicule and derision and Micah Richardson is, well, Micah Richardson.

None of that has anything to do with Given's ability to organise a defense. Bridge's chronic lack of positional awareness his solely down to him - with the wages he is paid, he shouldn't need a goalkeeper to explain to him how to play at fullback. His errors have been so basic they're embarrassing.

Most laughable about your OP is your point about defenders improving after moving on from Newcastle. I suppose Given is also solely responsible for the immediate downturn in the form, fortune and careers of the likes of Michael Owen and Damien Duff?
 
It's because Given is responsible for organising everything, actually.

Which is why Casillas is the weak link at the Real Madrid back four because Sergio Ramos and Marcelo are not to blame for screwing up defensively again and again. He needs to shout a lot more.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
Dear oh dear. I've read about a third of this thread and just can't be arsed with the rest.

Brwned, how can you possibly look at the City back 5 and conclude that Given is the weak link? Everyone can see that City are an unbalanced squad and that they tried to quickly assemble a defense capable of backing up an assault on the top 4 but they had to compromise as their original targets weren't available.

Given is a top quality keeper, there is absolutely no myth there whatsoever, but Lescott and Toure are not a top class centre back pairing. Lescott lacks class and composure and Toure's best days are behind him.

On top of that, Bridges most recent performances have been the subject of wide spread ridicule and derision and Micah Richardson is, well, Micah Richardson.

None of that has anything to do with Given's ability to organise a defense. Bridge's chronic lack of positional awareness his solely down to him - with the wages he is paid, he shouldn't need a goalkeeper to explain to him how to play at fullback. His errors have been so basic they're embarrassing.

Most laughable about your OP is your point about defenders improving after moving on from Newcastle. I suppose Given is also solely responsible for the immediate downturn in the form, fortune and careers of the likes of Michael Owen and Damien Duff?
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good post

thread closed
 
BaldwinLegend said:
Dear oh dear. I've read about a third of this thread and just can't be arsed with the rest.

Brwned, how can you possibly look at the City back 5 and conclude that Given is the weak link? Everyone can see that City are an unbalanced squad and that they tried to quickly assemble a defense capable of backing up an assault on the top 4 but they had to compromise as their original targets weren't available.

Given is a top quality keeper, there is absolutely no myth there whatsoever, but Lescott and Toure are not a top class centre back pairing. Lescott lacks class and composure and Toure's best days are behind him.

On top of that, Bridges most recent performances have been the subject of wide spread ridicule and derision and Micah Richardson is, well, Micah Richardson.

None of that has anything to do with Given's ability to organise a defense. Bridge's chronic lack of positional awareness his solely down to him - with the wages he is paid, he shouldn't need a goalkeeper to explain to him how to play at fullback. His errors have been so basic they're embarrassing.

Most laughable about your OP is your point about defenders improving after moving on from Newcastle. I suppose Given is also solely responsible for the immediate downturn in the form, fortune and careers of the likes of Michael Owen and Damien Duff?
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Great post.
 
People can sometimes be spellbound but there is no evidence anywhere buffon for example could come to England and be a top goalkeeper IN England

Because of the pace, intensity, the variation ie we punt it in the box like no other nation from all angles - we even see throw in/crosses...i'd say it's tougher to be a top goalkeeper here there anywhere else in europe certainly.

The games are non stop. Therefore our goalkeepers are at a disadvantage because there is very little time for training around december and at various times of the season. It's what Schmichael used to say, he wasn't happy as he got older that his standards dropped because it was game after game with him needing longer to relax to train

So people can roll out names of these stars but England is the toughest environment for a goalkeeper in my opinion.
 
Great shot stopper, poor communication and command of the box. I've always thought the same about him and i've seen nothing to change my mind. He lets so many balls bounce in and around his goal it's frightening.

Going to City has really showed up his lack of communication ability imo. We've all seen first hand at our club this season what happens to top defenders when they don't have a good communicator at the back. Given's doing the same with City.
 
Should make it clear the whole 'myth' is just a theory, one that I've no way of proving and one I'm still not entirely sure of myself.

It just seems too coincidental that he's continually in such leaky backlines, unless he's in a team that's built around defending first and foremost - i.e. Ireland. There's a lot of flaws to be picked at but there's just as many to be picked at the idea he's world class.

I think he's a good keeper, one that could come in and do a job for us now and do better than Howard, Carroll and maybe even Barthez did, but I don't think he'd ever have been that long-term solution and I don't think he could've done what VDS has done over the past few years for us. I don't think he suits Arsenal in any way with his lack of height and presence, something which because there's so little of it elsewhere means it's almost essential for a keeper there. I don't think he could've done a much better job than Reina's done, but I don't think he would've done much worse(given Reina steadily improved each season behind a strong defensively minded team, something Given's shown he can do well). Right now he's arguably better than Cech, but then that's more to do with Cech being levels below where he should be than Given being the right level of keeper Chelsea should be going for.

I don't think he's at the level of someone like Howard or Friedel, he's better than that. Likewise I don't think he's at the level of Reina or VDS.
 
Striker10 said:
People can sometimes be spellbound but there is no evidence anywhere buffon for example could come to England and be a top goalkeeper IN England
Because of the pace, intensity, the variation ie we punt it in the box like no other nation from all angles - we even see throw in/crosses...i'd say it's tougher to be a top goalkeeper here there anywhere else in europe certainly.

The games are non stop. Therefore our goalkeepers are at a disadvantage because there is very little time for training around december and at various times of the season. It's what Schmichael used to say, he wasn't happy as he got older that his standards dropped because it was game after game with him needing longer to relax to train

So people can roll out names of these stars but England is the toughest environment for a goalkeeper in my opinion.
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Nah, when you are as good as he is you'd fit in anywhere. Buffon is the class act out of the current crop. Ive always thought that but seeing him live recently only reinforces this opinion. Technically hes a joy to watch. His movement and actual presence is just so impressive.
 
You'd think that after being at Newcastle for so long he would've played behind at least one decent defence.

It makes as much sense to question Given's ability to organise a defence as to put it down to just a 'tradition' of having poor defending. To me, that is.
 
Brwned said:
You'd think that after being at Newcastle for so long he would've played behind at least one decent defence.
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:lol:

Souness basically assembled the worst back four to grace the Premier League in the last decade or so. It has taken them this long to find Habib Beye, their first good defender. It has taken them this long for Steven Taylor to finally show his ability and for José Enrique to play well (he was awful in his first season for them).

I've already given you a list of terrible defenders at Newcastle. It is hilarious how they have not been able to assemble anything remotely ressembling a Premier League defence ever since Souness was in charge. Bernard, Bramble, Steven Taylor from the past, Carr, N'Zogbia at left-back, Babayaro, Boumsong, Amdy Faye, Moore, Ramage, Huntington, Edgar, Onyewu, Rozenhal, Caçapa, Coloccini, Geremi, Ryan Taylor and Duff. And I've missed several, I'm sure. All were not good enough for the Premier League at the time. Given has NEVER had a solid back four in front of him for Newcastle, except for his final season for them but then again even that was dubious.

Geordies will never accept this but Big Sam did do one good thing by actually giving them a decent back four - a back four that saw Taylor come through, and Beye and José Enrique develop.

Brwned said:
It makes as much sense to question Given's ability to organise a defence as to put it down to just a 'tradition' of having poor defending. To me, that is.
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This is akin to blaming the pedestrian "getting in the way" of a car crash. Given has been the knight in shining armour at Newcastle, with the hilariously bad back four messing around. Given may have his flaws but Occam's Razor tells me to blame the stupid defending. Nit-picking one possible flaw in Given's game and disregarding having Bramble and Boumsong in your defence is stupid.

You don't blame Casillas for Marcelo and Sergio Ramos running around like headless chickens in defence. You don't blame Júlio César because Chivu is trying to learn the offside trap from Inzaghi. You don't blame Júlio César because Materazzi is going round stupidly fouling everyone. You blame the defenders.
 
x42bn6 said:
This is akin to blaming the pedestrian "getting in the way" of a car crash. Given has been the knight in shining armour at Newcastle, with the hilariously bad back four messing around. Given may have his flaws but Occam's Razor tells me to blame the stupid defending. Nit-picking one possible flaw in Given's game and disregarding having Bramble and Boumsong in your defence is stupid.

You don't blame Casillas for Marcelo and Sergio Ramos running around like headless chickens in defence. You don't blame Júlio César because Chivu is trying to learn the offside trap from Inzaghi. You don't blame Júlio César because Materazzi is going round stupidly fouling everyone. You blame the defenders.
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agree 100%
 
How about being or not being English has feck all to do with it?!

Why are people so obsessed with this mythical bias on here!

Do you not think that say the Spanish rate their own perhaps a little more highly than everyone else? Or the Italians? Or God forbid, the Irish?!

Run out of ideas? No imagination? Bit of a wanker? Blame it on the English bias of course!!!
 
B Cantona said:
How about being or not being English has feck all to do with it?!

Why are people so obsessed with this mythical bias on here!

Do you not think that say the Spanish rate their own perhaps a little more highly than everyone else? Or the Italians? Or God forbid, the Irish?!

Run out of ideas? No imagination? Bit of a wanker? Blame it on the English bias of course!!!
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Well, it does a bit. Most football supporters base much of their rating of players on what they hear/read in the media. If Given was English, without question he would have had much more coverage in the media. He would be the current England number one, afterall.

The bias (if you can call it that ) is far from mythical.
 
It exists amongst the Welsh too. It exists everywhere, as you said...

Do you not think that say the Spanish rate their own perhaps a little more highly than everyone else? Or the Italians? Or God forbid, the Irish?!
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In fact, I'm a bit puzzled as to why you are so vehemently trying to deny it exists despite having accepted national bias exists in your post.

I, as a United fan, rate most United players slightly higher than I would do if I was a fan of another club. I'm sure you do too. And as an England fan, you most likely do the same thing with England players. Combine that understandable characteristic of being a fan with the hysteria surrounding anything Ingerlund made by British national press and you get the Ingerlund bias in favour of English players.

So yeah, people are quite right when they say Given would be rated more highly if he were English.
 
rednev said:
Well, it does a bit. Most football supporters base much of their rating of players on what they hear/read in the media. If Given was English, without question he would have had much more coverage in the media. He would be the current England number one, afterall.

The bias (if you can call it that ) is far from mythical.
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Yeah, cos the English papers always overrate our goalkeepers, don't they? James, Robinson, Carson, Green etc etc... All hugely overrated by the press...
 
I think it's very mild, I think it exists everywhere, and I think it works both ways. Equally people may underrate their own (I see this a hell of a lot on this forum regarding United players) because the grass is always greener, and of course you don't see the warts and all of other players, usually just the best and most glamorous moments

Sadly it's trotted too often as the answer to everything, it's the conspiracy theorists plan A

Given is rated just about right. On his day he's one of the best keepers in the world. He's a magnificent shot stopper. Yet there's a reason he's playing for the likes of Newcastle and City, and conceeded over a goal a game. Absolutely feck all to do with whether he's English or not!!! Some people just have an obsession with the English. Some might say it's polemic...
 
B Cantona said:
How about being or not being English has feck all to do with it?!

Why are people so obsessed with this mythical bias on here!

Do you not think that say the Spanish rate their own perhaps a little more highly than everyone else? Or the Italians? Or God forbid, the Irish?!

Run out of ideas? No imagination? Bit of a wanker? Blame it on the English bias of course!!!
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Who's obsessing?

If a certain player was from a certain country, then they normally would be rated much higher. That's just the way it is.

My response saying Given would be rated higher if he was English was a direct answer to Mr. Marcello's question.

The English media do overhype certain players by the way.
 
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