I disagree, Mourinho would not have been able to replicate what Guardiola achieved last season let alone better it.
Nah man, 3 games undefeated is huge!! We've been awful since the turn of the year but now the ship is steadied!!1
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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I disagree, Mourinho would not have been able to replicate what Guardiola achieved last season let alone better it.
Nah man, 3 games undefeated is huge!! We've been awful since the turn of the year but now the ship is steadied!!1
Last year they almost won the Champions League. Of course you ignored that, but then say they almost finished 5th.Liverpool being thrown into the mix
Theyve now overtaken us in spending but last year they were a draw from finishing 5th on the final day of the season.
And why wouldn't Liverpool be thrown into the mix? The whole point of your discussion is to relate money with league position. That is to say you believe it's only natural for United to not compete in order to excuse Mourinho. Well, here we have a team that spend similar to United in Liverpool, who are in fact competing for the title as of right now. Now time will tell how long that lasts, but if they're in the title race past December, then Liverpool's title run managed to last longer than last year's United.
In any case, it still doesn't excuse Mourinho who will surely finish behind Klopp despite similar spending.
Given complete backing both managers have demonstrated that they can break records. Given limited backing only one has shown he can achieve anything. It stands to reason that Jose with Peps current backing would be able to achieve what Pep has, at least.
Jose would be more capable of winning the CL with City, assuming the same run to the final, Jose doesn't get smashed to pieces by Liverpool. Jose has experience of taken an outside bet to CL glory, which is the basis of the claim. Frankly any half decent manager wins the league with that City side last season, given the backing, the quality of players being recruited would be exceptionally high and the advantage would be massive.
I wouldn't be so confident of Klopp finishing ahead of Jose so early in the season. So far Liverpool haven't been great, they've done well on regards to results but all it takes is a small blip and questions are asked. Liverpool like all sides bar City are capable of having a disastrous run of results.
Mourinho didn’t even try to compete with City this season and that’s why this should be his last season. Personally didn’t expect him to win the league but to at least make the team as competitive as possible, to establish a way of playing and improve the players.
But because he didn’t get likes of Willian and Boateng he threw in the towel and put himself before the team and the club.
What happens when he doesn’t get the players he wants next summer if he stays?. Another season written off because he can’t compete?. I don’t think it matters whether he goes in next couple of months or more likely end of the season but he has to go. Even if he finished in the top four I would get rid, have seen his true colours and he isn’t on the same page as the board in terms of how to move forward so why waste everyone’s time.
But because he didn’t get likes of Willian and Boateng he threw in the towel and put himself before the team and the club.
What happens when he doesn’t get the players he wants next summer if he stays?. Another season written off because he can’t compete?. I don’t think it matters whether he goes in next couple of months or more likely end of the season but he has to go. Even if he finished in the top four I would get rid, have seen his true colours and he isn’t on the same page as the board in terms of how to move forward so why waste everyone’s time.
Unsurprisingly, you don't know what you are talking about. Rooney is included. And you still struggle to grasp the point of taking into account Chelsea's insane spending. Again, the failure I'm talking about is relative (!) to their spending, not a failure per se. The really daft thing is to ignore the context I'm talking about. Imagine that Guardiola buys players for 500m in a single window, then adds players for 250m next summer and then players for another 250m the summer after that. And finishes 6 pts behind a team that invested 1/3 of that. That would be a failure given the insane spending.
And it's not about winning or not 3 in a row. A team might lose the title with 88 or 89 pts as we know. That would be a narrow loss, not with 6 pts and worse GD after investing three times more in players than your rival. Next season Avram Grant did better than Jose - both in the league and the CL. It wasn't difficult with their squad. I'm done.
United aren't the type of club to happily sack a manager after a small handful of games with bad form at the beginning of the season. Feel free to support another club if you feel differently though.
And again, I didn't say we are back. I didn't even imply it. I just said Jose has been steadying the ship and you've decided to exaggerate to suit whatever narrative you've got going on.
What's your expectation about this season? How would you translate your opinion of Jose in a prediction about the season? Under what conditions would you say, well, maybe I was wrong about Jose?
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The last bit is onterintere because I too don't think Jose and the board are on the same page. Jose wants to win, the board wants to just do enough. That's how I see it. The board will take CL qualification year after year, it guarantees the money keeps rolling in and that's what is important to the board. Jose wants to win the title, he does so where ever he is in charge. The board didn't back Jose this summer when he was best placed to take the next step, and the results are there for us all to see. Whether Jose has sabotaged us is highly debatable or whether it caused a drop in the over all mood of the club, knowing the people in charge don't actually care to win, who knows.
The way I see it, if Jose causes the board to properly back him and future managers, then well done Jose. Him not being a yes man is seen by some as a bad thing, but yes men only work with perfect owners, and ours arent that. They are not the worst, but are in it purely for money.
Oh, I have never heard that argument before!. “If you don’t like the manager,go support a different club”.
Why should I? I care about united as much as you do and you are hoping that Jose would turn things around and I don’t. I don’t tend to be dishonest about it like you and keep changing the goal posts to fit the narrative.
I never said you did.
I asked a simple question in my post and you didn’t answer it. How many times are we going to pretend “he’s turning things around”. It doesn’t matter to you how many games we lose and if we win the next game, it’s like, “maybe,just maybe, we have turned the corner”. Let’s see how it goes.
I ask the same question. If we lose the next three games and win 2/3 after that, will you still say,” he’s steadied the ship”?
You mean Ed didn't try to compete with City and was content with what we did last summer so decided to not spend much and not improve the team any farther.
He didn’t start the season in a manner that benefitted the players, confidence etc was all ruined to prove a point and ultimately he lost. If he’d had a better attitude and got even 4 or 5 points more this season the narrative would be completely different and I think he would get a lot more support.
Mourinho and his reputation came before the job, he won’t force the Glazers to do anything now or in the future. If he wants the title that much then he needs to do more than just complain about money, improve himself and the team. Ultimately as you say it will only get better if they are on same page but I don’t see either side changing and I wouldn’t expect them to.
Neither of them did, that’s the truth. Mourinho hasn’t done enough with the players or his tactics and he gave up to an extent before the season begun.Woodward didn’t do enough in the summer to compete either.
We weren't good enough to compete with City last season even when we were pretty good. In fact neither of the top teams were good enough to compete with them last season. We finished behind them by 19 points while the rest were behind by +20.
The difference is we didn't make a single effort in summer to close the gap between us and City and seemed content with what we did, just add a midfielder, a youngster and a 3rd option GK and that's it. A team like Liverpool for example seemed more demanding in trying to close the gap by getting players in positions that hurt them last year.
Mourinho is responsible for us being 8th and away from 2nd to 3rd position as we're good enough to be in them, that I agree with but regarding competing with City it's on Ed, as simple as that. If the club was into competing with them we should have matched their ambitions. When you reach 2nd and your objective is to close the gap with City, then does a terrible market, veto signings and decide the team is good enough based on what we did last season, then you're not aiming for the title, you're aiming for another 2nd or 3rd finish. Not sure how will a manager decide he doesn't want to try to compete for 1st spot.
I think the team losing games and he getting fired will affect him as well and not just the club.
I have seen these kind of statements mentioned too many times on caf. Jose throws players under the bus to protect himself, Jose drags the club's name through the mud to protect himself, Jose does that, says that, acts like that to protect himself.
I don't think throwing the players, taking digs at the board and getting fired from past 2 jobs will hardly look bright on his resume.
Not if they had won 2 in a row and lost the league in season three narrowly to a side on the cusp of being the best in Europe and one of the greatest teams ever.
Ignoring the quality United had in that side and focusing on spending is silly, as has proved time and time again.
If Guardiola wins the league again this season, spends big money again but comes second in the league next year to a side that then goes on to be the best in Europe, dominate the league & have one of the 2 best players ever in it, all the while winning both cups, will I consider it a failure? no. You can’t win every single year, even SAF couldn’t.
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He's shite, a relick and should get rid.
Mate (if I may), you apply normal standards to Jose's season 06-07. Under normal standards Chelsea had a great season. But the standards of evaluating their season shouldn't be normal as their spending was unseen and unrepeated in history. It was absolutely abnormal. Which made Fergie's triumph even greater.
Agree to disagree. My last post on that theme.
Top post, need more of this on here atm
The narrative of United not being a sacking club is a false one.
Yes, we had two extremely long stints with one manager in the modern era: 24 years under Sir Matt Busby and 27 under Sir Alex Ferguson. But in between that there was a period of 16 years in which we had 6 different managers (less than 3 years per manager), kind of similar to how the last 6 years have been. So the idea that Jose should stick around because we're not a sacking club doesn't make sense.
For me, as Manchester United manager there are some fundamental things that you have to get right in order to be allowed to keep your job:
1.) Promote youth and develop young talent
2.) Play an enjoyable style of attacking football
3.) Win or challenge for the Premier League and/or Champions League
Which of these 3 has Mourinho achieved? None. Even Van Gaal at least got the first one right. That is why he absolutely has to go. When we hired him (which I was against to begin with) the expectation was we would forego #1 and #2, effectively selling the soul of the club to get #3. We've gotten nowhere near. 6th in the first season, 19 points adrift last year and this year already out of the title race in November. As for the CL, disgraceful exit to Sevilla and things aren't exactly looking up this year.
The only reason to keep Mourinho is his trophy count and it's not a good one. Those trophies were largely won in a different era of football. The game has passed him by. He's alienating star players, stagnating the development of youth, playing boring football and not winning the league so why should he stay? Get him out and get in a DoF to find someone who fits all three of those principles I outlined.
Yes, we had two extremely long stints with one manager in the modern era: 24 years under Sir Matt Busby and 27 under Sir Alex Ferguson. But in between that there was a period of 16 years in which we had 6 different managers (less than 3 years per manager), kind of similar to how the last 6 years have been. So the idea that Jose should stick around because we're not a sacking club doesn't make sense.
For me, as Manchester United manager there are some fundamental things that you have to get right in order to be allowed to keep your job:
1.) Promote youth and develop young talent
2.) Play an enjoyable style of attacking football
3.) Win or challenge for the Premier League and/or Champions League
Which of these 3 has Mourinho achieved? None. Even Van Gaal at least got the first one right. That is why he absolutely has to go. When we hired him (which I was against to begin with) the expectation was we would forego #1 and #2, effectively selling the soul of the club to get #3. We've gotten nowhere near. 6th in the first season, 19 points adrift last year and this year already out of the title race in November. As for the CL, disgraceful exit to Sevilla and things aren't exactly looking up this year.
The only reason to keep Mourinho is his trophy count and it's not a good one. Those trophies were largely won in a different era of football. The game has passed him by. He's alienating star players, stagnating the development of youth, playing boring football and not winning the league so why should he stay? Get him out and get in a DoF to find someone who fits all three of those principles I outlined.
and you think not buying needed players is moving us forward?
I think he felt let down, I suspect the players felt let down too. At the end of last season, they would have all wanted to mount a title challenge. The primary stumbling block to this is the board.
I think the players would have felt more let down by Mourinho, that’s who they have the relationship with. They would have wanted a title challenge whether we bought anyone or not.
Mourinho started the season wanting everyone to know he couldn’t win the league and it wasn’t his fault and all that has done is make things worse and undermined his position.
We did buy some players not enough but clearly spending fortunes doesn’t always move us forward, if anyone demonstrates that it’s us.
To be honest I think catching City couldn’t be done in one summer, it needed improvement in terms of new players, working with the current players, finding a best eleven, water tactics and probably time to develop. As I say Mourinho and the board are at fault for not doing enough.
I think anyone who thought we would win the league on day one of the season was leaving in a dream world as is anyone who thinks Mourinho isn’t at fault for the start we have had.
So Mourinho purposefully did not train the team, or trained them the wrong way so that they would lose the matches and reach 10th place so as to teach Woodward a lesson?
Come on @Treble, United spent miles more than Arsenal in the Summer of 2001, bringing in Ruud & Veron*... Arsenal won the league despite Franny Jeffers being their biggest signing of the Summer. We'd won 3 in a row before that and added two of the best players in the World.
Shit happens, even with all the money in the World another side can just click for a season and special players (Ronaldo, Henry) can emerge. It’s beyond harsh to claim anything other than a league every season is a failure, even with all the money in the World.
But you’re right on one thing, we should probably just leave this discussion here.
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No but he hasnt inspired any confidence and he had basically written them off before the season started. The players would have known the challenge of trying to win the league I doubt any gave up because we didn’t sign Willian or Mina.
If he has genuinely done everything he possibly can to coach and motivate this squad then I think that is even more of a reason to sack him.
We didn't need to sign Willian on Mina particularly though. I don't understand this point.
He wanted RW and asked for let's say Willian. You as CEO think Willian is too old and will be a terrible signing, then veto it and suggest another RW that fits yous your strategy and sign him. Will Mourinho refuse ? I highly doubt it. Don't just veto signings and decide to not sign anyone. Veto the signings and suggest alternatives for the manager to sign, or tell him you want a RW with specific requirements so let's search for another one. Same for CB.
Not enforcing the squad sends wrong message to the squad that they were totally fine last season and were content with just finishing in top 4.
I don't think anyone expected day one. We're now in the 3rd season. But it seems like we've not improved as a unit. The players that were there at the start of Mourinho's tenure here haven't exactly improved much. Compare this to Klopp, Guardiola or Pochetino - they seem to be improving players or at least improving their confidence.
How long should we wait before we start asking questions then?
The board obviously wanted him to get results in a season or two. He's in season 3. Would you say we're any closer to a title or are we showing any signs of improvement since 2016/17?
Only an incompetent person would hire Maureen for building a long-term side.
Mate, Chelsea have been pretty successful for the past 14 years or so despite chopping and changing managers, so have Madrid and pretty much every successful club, so I have no clue what point you're trying to make by focusing on one one club or one successful season. You waltzed into the thread talking about how sacking Jose does not solve the problem so I'd like to know how the other sacking top clubs are managing to be successful
Not sure what match you watched?
What's with all the talk about competing with City, we aren't even close, lets worry about finishing below Arsenal and Spurs and wait for the excuses afterwards
I think you hire Mourinho to be successful quickly, when that doesn’t work you move on. Given the work that is needed on and off the field I don’t see Mourinho being the right fit or being successful.
Oh, so getting to the finals and losing the match in the 2nd half means they almost didn't win the CL? To me, getting to the finals means almost winning the CL. In your eyes, they have to pull a Bayern 1999?
We were 1-1 at HT in Wembley in 2011. No one would say, we almost won the CL.
Or he would have bought his dream signings Perisic, Willian, Boateng, Maguire, Sanchez, Matic and Lukaku and have them playing hoof ball clinging to fourth place and having all his new players and the ones he inherited look like shit. Maybe benched Sold D. Silva for not being tall enough or not tracking back, bench Aguero for someone with more taller with more 'presence' sold De Bruyne for some other hardworking midfielder ( once again) etc while Pep would have been here with Jesus, Stones, Laporte, Walker, Mendy, Sterling, B. Silva, Gundogan, Mahrez etc still tearing shit up....Does the same my ass
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It really doesn't.
Leverkusen didn't almost win the CL vs. Madrid. Monaco didn't almost win it vs. Porto. Arsenal didn't almost win it vs. Barca. United didn't almost win it vs. Barca. etc etc etc.
Liverpool made the final, is all, after getting the luck of the draw and avoiding both Madrid and Munich in the semis. Liverpool faced just one top side (City) on their way to the final.
The reasons to sack a manager depend on the club and where they are. Relegation clubs for example sack managers and get new ones in because there’s always a brief boost period. Top clubs sack managers because they want the very best, and they have the infrastructure in place that a manager is only a small part of the machine.
So we’re not in a relegation battle, and we don’t need a boost to team performance. Even if we did need that boost, our current manager has shown that he’s capable of getting that boost for the moment at least.
We don’t have a stable infrastructure, so getting a new manager is for all intent and purpose would be going back to square one. Which would bring a very large possibility that in 2/3 years time we are right back here moaning about how to make the club better.
If we are sticking with Jose, it makes more sense to get a dof he can worth with much like the partnership he had at inter. If we aren’t sticking with Jose, then it more sense to get in a dof and have choose the manger and start as we mean to go on. So if we want to be an attacking team, we need an attacking infrastructure that reflects that. That way it doesn’t matter what manager comes in, he’s playing with an attacking team and we can sack managers like Madrid or Barca at that point.
Obviously this is all just an opinion and not a fact. But one thing is as close to fact as we can get, neither moyes nor lvg were sacked until after they couldn’t make the champions league. So anyone hoping to see Jose gone before then shouldn’t get their hopes up. It could happen, but I don’t see it happening based on what’s happened before. Only reason I could think of would be that there’s a world class manager that’s above Jose available right now. I can’t think of anyone.
Mina and Willian are just examples from
number of players we were linked with, Mourinho’s attitude was wrong irrespective of signings. The players would have wanted to be ambitious and have a go, Mourinho didn’t once his power struggle failed.
No one has any idea what happened in regards to transfers Mourinho may well have vetoed alternatives, he is an all or nothing character after all and he wants instant results. I suspect as in most cases the blame has to be spread between Woodward and Mourinho to an extent.
I just think it makes absolutely no sense to believe that because we only spent 80m we were doomed to fail and Mourinho was powerless to stop it. He didn’t prepare the team properly, is now suffering the consequences and has only made a difficult job even harder.
Well they were closer to winning it then United winning the league considering they were only 1 half away compared to United who dropped out of the title race mid competition. It sounds ridiculous to be able to say "almost finished 5th," yet in the same token be able to say they didn't almost win the CL as they were the better side before the Salah injury and up until Karius' hilarious goalkeeping.
We're talking competition btw. Nobody is saying they almost won the match.
I frankly disagree as they almost did win the competition same with those examples you listed (including United vs Barca). A 1 off match where it's decided in 1 half is almost winning the competition in my view. Both teams earned a 1 match chance to win the trophy and both fought their way through the competition.
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