what ended up swaying you the other way?
The Modern Draft QF1: Skizzo vs crappycraperson | Votes have been reset - vote again
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
what ended up swaying you the other way?
@Skizzo think your being skrewed by the poll switch.
As much as I rate the Atletico defense trio I think only Godin is world class there, and although I rate your attack much higher, I don't think your midfield-defense will deal with it good enough. Gerrard will get a lot of freedom. Last match against Barney the whole concept of my plan was to deny him of space, and it seems like no one will do it here, and with players like Aguero and Ribery in front of him it could be costly.
Surely.
Cambiasso is there. He is guaranteed to be more of a nuisance to him, than anyone on the other team is to Silva.
Plus, like you say, you rate my attack much higher. Vidic is his only world class defender. With no one to stop Muller and Silva pulling strings and exploiting space, it would be even more costly
Yeah that was a bit of a bitch
I thought about asking if we could just keep the votes and not have managers count double, that way it wouldnt matter who voted, just so we wouldn't have to start again...but this way is the way it's supposed to be done, so oh well.
Yeah that was a bit of a bitch
I thought about asking if we could just keep the votes and not have managers count double, that way it wouldnt matter who voted, just so we wouldn't have to start again...but this way is the way it's supposed to be done, so oh well.
sack @Edgar Allan Pillow.
I knew he'd get back at me somehow eventually.
The diamond was a possibility, but that would let his full backs off the hook. They're the weakest area of his team, and Sterling and Muller can do some damage there. Playing a diamond would make it easier to defend against our threats, whereas here, they would struggle and be on the back foot.
It sure wasn't me complaining about Silva and Müller, I had no issue with it whatsoever. I could see some of the points raised, but there was a good case either way.
Very interesting match up. Both teams have ball playing midfields who would do great in an open match, Skizzo has the better set up defensively though for me in terms of the midfield. Skizzos attackers Muller/Lewandowski/Silva/Sterling would be very good defensively and would have so much hassling ability that it would cause problems for Carrick/Moutinho.
With that said Aguero-Gerrard looks dead certain to lead to goals and Ribery on the left will be doing great too with Coentrao who is really damn good offensively. Crappy's defense doesn't look too fun in my mind as I don't rate Varane too high at all - he's still a work in progress and his positioning needs a lot of work.
Coentrao/Caceres aren't top class either and Vidic has such a difficult job ahead of him to keep that defense from trembling. Vidic showed with his work with Rafael/Jones/Smalling/Evans that he'd be up for this job.
With that said Aguero-Gerrard looks dead certain to lead to goals and Ribery on the left will be doing great too with Coentrao who is really damn good offensively. Crappy's defense doesn't look too fun in my mind as I don't rate Varane too high at all - he's still a work in progress and his positioning needs a lot of work.
Coentrao/Caceres aren't top class either and Vidic has such a difficult job ahead of him to keep that defense from trembling. Vidic showed with his work with Rafael/Jones/Smalling/Evans that he'd be up for this job.
No i didn't mean you necessarily. I usually feel you're able to look at a team sheet and see how it would work in actuality, rather than some who just look at a team sheet and spout some nonsense.
Pretty much what I've been saying.
Both teams have goals in them. No two ways about that. But the biggest difference, I feel, is that we're much better equipped to handle his, than vice versa. Wouldn't claim to keep a shut out, but definitely think we could outscore him based on attack vs defence of both teams.
And the problem is you aren't exploiting it. For all the knee-jerk player switching you did at the back to deal with his strengths, you have chosen not to engage in that when it comes to exploiting his weaknesses.
@MDFC Manager made a very valid point, game-changing IMO:
- if Cáceres has pace but is positionally suspect, do you want him against Sterling or Müller?
- if Vidic seems to be the lynchpin of the defence and has Lewandowski in his pocket, what else do you want but a player like Sterling trying to unsettle him and drag him out of his comfort zone with his pace and incisiveness?
You tell me, I was picking him before he won the World Cup. In fact, Balu has me as some form of reverse-jynx single-handedly responsible for Müller and Schweini's form, probably Götze's goal to boot.
No beer though.
How is Cambiasso tracking Gerrard if he is supposed to be supporting Juanfran against Ribery? And if he isn't supporting Juanfran, what the hell is he doing on the right of that midfield?
With all your stronger defensive players focused on Ribery, Gerrard and Agüero will tear you a new one. You need to switch back one of Godín or Cambiasso, the latter IMO as Godín is already providing adequate support where it is most needed and you need to pick up Gerrard early before it is too late.
The scores are a better reflection of this match up now. Hopefully this goes to penalties.
Switch the names around and you have the exact same issue with crappy's defence. Except his full backs and defence are more suspect than mine. You seemed to have failed to mention that at any point? Yet somehow Muller wouldn't be effective? His movement and runs are more than enough to cause trouble for Vidic if he's apparently just following Lewandowski around. Lewandowski runs all game, he'll be dragging Vidic everywhere if he's just supposed to be marking him.
Sterling has the pace to cause problems when Caceres is caught out positionally. Putting Muller there, your argument would be "well Caceres would just get back and outrun Muller".
I looked back through this thread...can't see where you got the idea from what Cambiasso is working on Ribery. OP states what Cambiasso's job is.
As for Cambiasso not being able to play on the right of a defensive two? He played on the right with Motta on the left for Inter in the Champions League, notably when they knocked out Chelsea and Barcelona.
Whilst their whole team is industrious, you are heavily downplaying the individual quality of that Atleti defense. They did not need that much protection as you are making it out to be and neither are they just 'decent' individuals being carried by their team and their graft by any stretch of imagination.
Godín is the best CB in the world, Miranda is one of the best CBs in the world, Evra was the best LB on his day, Juanfran is a top RB and has fared brilliantly against top forwards like Ronaldo, Hazard and Neymar one on one on many occasions. Obviously their team ethic enhanced their solidity but these guys do not need much, if any, babbysitting and it is most certainty not a pre requisite for their functionally.
Keep in mind we have Cambiasso, a considerable upgrade on any DMs of Atleti guarding that defense, Kroos who's deceptively extremely industrious consistently topping distance covered rankings, with a significant individual upgrade on F.Luis in the workaholic Evra, more than sufficient graft in Lewa, Müller and Sterling (yes he does it too, contrary to your claim as @Barney would attest) from attacking positions with only Silva lacking in graft. So I don't see any issue with the lack of protection for our defense.
Besides Evra has Sterling to count on doing his fair share of defensive duties, as will Juanfran with Müller and our midfield with Lewa working his socks off on the front line. Who does your weaker defense have on their forward/attacking midfield line to help them out? Not Joaquin, not Ribéry and no most certainly not Aguero either. Only Gerrard has the work rate to aid your midfield and defense. Will that be enough and will Gerrard be overburdened by that lethargic front line?
In every planet mate, every single planet. He's considerably a better CB than Varane. It's a blatant no contest.
You are comparing a promising young CB who's struggling to break into the team ahead of Ramos-Pepe, someone who's had one decent season (where he made a sum total of 15 league appearances) and someone who's yet to make more than 18 appearances in the league in a season for Real against a seasoned CB who is an integral part of the best defense in recent history, won the league for an unfancied Atleti against traditional powerhouses, letting in a paltry 26 goals in their against the odds la liga triumph and conceding 6 goals on their run to the CL final.
Varane's claim to fame - A good performance against Barça... Miranda has truckloads of those btw.
Don't get me wrong, he's exceptionally talented and a very good CB for his age who will in all likelihood be a top CB. However, to claim he's a better CB than Miranda or to even claim he's shown anything close to Miranda on a consistent basis is sheer lunacy. People are extra polating a few excellent performances and grossly overrating him. That kind of muppetry is fine but to say he's better than Miranda and make it sound like s no contest??? Expected much much better from you crappy.
Like I said before, no way would that be possible.
Once again Juanfran is a much much better FB than Coentrao and has shown much more throughout his career, being MOTM against Chelsea in the semi final at Stamford Bridge and consistently coming up trumps against the likes of Neymar, Hazard and Ronaldo on the right.
He was part of an impregnable Atleti defense and actively contributed to their dominance instead of just being a passenger or someone who was carried by his teammates. It's absolutely criminal how the Atleti players are underrated individually on a consistent basis, which also pathetically results in a lack of caps and a lack of individual accolades. Godín wasn't even nominated for the best defender in the la liga last season with Ramos winning it for eg.
Granted, Coentrao was decent for Portugal but did you know he's never ever made 30 league appearances ever in a single season, no not even in a single season and he's made 53 league appearances in 4 seasons for Real, struggling to get ahead of Marcelo a poor defensive FB. Him and Varane aren't exactly all that.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fábio_Coentrão
I don't see anything wrong in going for proven partnerships and our defense is hands down significantly better than yours both individually (bar Vidic) and collectively. I doubt if anyone would seriously contest that claim.
Fair enough, they are different types of players and I think they are of equal quality but I can understand it if someone claims Gerrard is better or vice versa.
However, you are frequently making comparisons between corresponding attacking players on both teams which is irrelevant for the most part. How about Gerrard being overburdened compensating for your forward/attacking midfield's lack of graft and also how he will have his work cut out against Cambiasso as opposed to D.Silva who will find it relatively easier against Carrick.
How about Vidic covering for Coentrao on the left who Müller will have the beating of, which leaves Lewandowski one on one against Varane. Someone who knocked 4 against a defense featuring Varane and absolutely roasted him, exposing him for the inexperienced CB he's at the highest of levels?
- Match report
So after applying those conditions, hey presto Silva>Gerrard
Lewa-Müller>Varane-Coentrao
.This arrows business is quite fun
.Exactly this, finally someone
.That's a fair point but you are forgetting Kroos's impact mate. Kroos's defensive work and esp his industry tends to be criminally overlooked. Tbf I initially did that too, given his lack of dynamism and he's extremely deceptive in this regard. I addressed his aptitude for putting a shift in comprehensively in this post.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-modern-current-players-draft.401628/page-56#post-17230311
Still not convinced?
Kroos vs Moutinho at the WC with Müller scoring a hat trick too
I'm surprised by that tbh. Moutinho has more mobility but in terms of quality I'd have Kroos over him. He was an integral player for the treble winning team and the WC winning German team (scoring 2 goals and 4 assists with a 9.79 rating and being rated as the best player if the WC by Castrol Index ratings).
All of which are in the detailed link (monstrosity
)above which I'd suggest you give a brief glance over.
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Fair enough but I really think Cambiasso would be able to contain Gerrard and likewise Kroos with Moutinho. So much so that I can see Silva (against Carrick) causing more problems than Gerrard would to our midfield.
Oh and I forgot to reply to your post on Cambiasso in the main thread, so will do so here. Whilst he was assured and preferred to use his reading of the game when defending, he could get tough when he needed to.
Take his phenomenal master classes vs Barça for eg. He was playing alongside a more culutured deep lying playmaker in Motta and played the role of a holding destroyer.
In the second leg, he was even better and was probably their best defensive player with Lucio close behind.
Motta was sent off and Chivu came in as a make shift CM with Cambiasso holding the midfield all together almost singlehandedly.
Can you imagine facing Barça with them having 86% possession and completing 555 passes as opposed to 67 by Inter
, all whilst being down to 10 men for more than an hour of the game against the likes of Xavi, Busquets, Messi, Ibrahimovic and Alves. Just providing the context of Cambiasso's momentous display.Keep in mind that whilst Gerrard would do his fair share of tracking back, his forwards are going to do zilch in this regard. Contrast this with our forward line whereby Sterling, Müller and Lewa will put a shift in with only Silva being a passenger in this regard. That has to count for something in the grand scheme of things with his weaker defense needing much more protection than ours.
Besides I'd back Cambiasso and Kroos to deal with whatever Gerrard and Moutinho throw at them and that Silva has the best chance of excelling in that battle like stated above.
Müller has a free role, as always and will cut in when he sees fit. He isn't playing as a line hugging winger here mind.
I'd have to disagree with that and refer you to my reply to NoPace.
I'm sure Varane wouldn't be comfortable with that as shown above with Lewa schooling him.
Most certainly not to the extent of Varane. Sterling is the current European Golden Boy, was a key player for a title chasing Pool, is arguably Pool's most valuable player currently and has shown much more than Varane throughout his career. Just check out Varane's appearances record and you'll understand how grossly he's been overrated on the basis of a handful of good games (and a good WC tbf).
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphaël_Varane
Granted, he's a post 90 player so I'm willing to afford him a fair amount of leniency when rating him. However, having him being made out to be better than Miranda and seeing Sterling, a better player who's shown much more thus far, come under much more scrutiny is certainly surprising and annoys me far more than it should
.Not at all, because Müller is the sort of player whose movement and intelligence makes him unplayable for any defender who isn't fully aware and positionally sound. Differently from Sterling, by the time Cáceres works out what's up there's no amount of pace that will make up for it. I agree Müller also causes problems on the other side, sure, but Müller causes Cáceres far more problems than Sterling not just because he is better but because his strengths are were Cáceres' weaknesses lie. Likewise, Sterling will cause more problems to Vidic when Coentrao gets caught upfield, because Sterling's strengths are a better challenge to present to Vidic than to Cáceres.
You are dealing with it suboptimally, quite clearly, and it's hurting you.
I have mentioned your defensive setup as well, so not sure what defensive setup I'm supposed to have failed to mention here. Unless you mean like for like comparisons, which I've never been a fan of. Defenders compare to the attack they face and have to deal with, on both sides, whether X is better than Y is irrelevant unless X is dealing with Y.
Nobody said he can't play on the right, the point is he is a left-footed player who would be more comfortable and productive with his passing on the left. Furthermore, you need him on the left, because that's the side looking vulnerable. The only sensible explanation for him being right is the teamsheet marketing effect of making Ribery look like he is trapped in a cage.
Yeah that was a bit of a bitch
I thought about asking if we could just keep the votes and not have managers count double, that way it wouldnt matter who voted, just so we wouldn't have to start again...but this way is the way it's supposed to be done, so oh well.
What? When the last poll was down, I recall the score was somewhere along the lines of 8-6 in your favour, iirc. There was no way of knowing who voted where and crappy wanted the rule to be enforced. And it was.
I don't think either you had major impact on this. Early scores are apt to move either way in a match as close as this.
Anyways you have my vote.
Look at the bloody teamsheets. If Kroos is dealing with Moutinho and Cambiasso is dealing with Gerrard why the hell are they arranged the other way around. It's really not that bloody hard to work out.And the reason he plays on the right there @Skizzo is that he is the best DM and Zanetti is rock solid while Maicon was a complete spacker, so you play Cambiasso right for cover, but squeezing in to make the stronger Pedro/Messi flank run into a dead end. You can see it clearly on the picture above, they created a funnel of sorts with those three flanked by two either side and Lucio at the tip. They gobbled them up and spat them out.
Fair enough @antohan and @MDFC Manager you do make some compelling points.
Not a sub, but a tactical update. Ball went out for a throw and the word was passed from the bench. Müller was instructed to swap with Sterling, looking to take advantage of the positional naivety of Caceres, and Sterling will be looking to drive at Vidic and unsettle him with pace, his kryptonite.
Cambiasso will swap with Kroos, still picking up Gerrard's runs from deep, while Kroos vigilantly keeps an eye on Moutinho potentially pushing forward.
Godín will still be looking to support Juanfran retaining his RCB role and cover in case Ribery cuts inside
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Cheers.
Not a sub, but a tactical update. Ball went out for a throw and the word was passed from the bench. Müller was instructed to swap with Sterling, looking to take advantage of the positional naivety of Caceres, and Sterling will be looking to drive at Vidic and unsettle him with pace, his kryptonite.
Cambiasso will swap with Kroos, still picking up Gerrard's runs from deep, while Kroos vigilantly keeps an eye on Moutinho potentially pushing forward.
Godín will still be looking to support Juanfran retaining his RCB role and cover in case Ribery cuts inside
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Cheers.
Mega post in coming.. to lazy to quote I will take in some of the criticisms..
- I am shocked that Varane has been underestimated here. I have no plans to replace him before the final. Vidic-Varane is as good a pairing you can get in the draft.
- Coentrao being portrayed as a weak link. He was part of the Madrid team that faced Bayern in CL semis last year. He came up against an attack containing Muller, Ribery and Robben. Yet he he was part of the defense that kept a clean sheet away from home. Incidentally in the same match, Kroos started in a MF two with Schwein, something Pep acknowledged was a tactical blunder later on.
- I have never "underrrated" Muller here. I conceded he will have an impact. I stand by my statement that for my side I would rather have Joaquin on right than Muller. (I even had the option to get Robben in drafting last round but stuck with Joaquin). Robbery with Bayern and then Ronaldo+Bale for Madrid have led to people think that inverted wingers is the way to go. I don't agree with that and believe there is great value in playing a winger that would widen the attacking area rather than cutting in all the time. The other comment about him not skinning anyone is valid. His strength lies elsewhere than playing like Ribery or Robben against the fullback.
- Why is brining up Lennon skinning Evra a cheap shot? It did happen, did it not? Evra was indeed the best left back in the world for period of 2 years at least. But even during his peak, he was never a shut out full back ala Cole. He would always give the winger against some chances. Part of it was concealed in the United team when we played Giggs in front of him and also due to Rio-Vida being there.
- Ribery against Juanfran is a better match up for me than any of his widemen against my fullbacks. Peak Ribery remains one of the most underrated players about. There is a reason why he won the UEFA player of the season award that season and came 3rd in Ballon'dor.
- Finally as much as Skizzo may wany to avoid talking about it. I simply have the much much better keeper here. And yes, that does help my defense more and increases my chances of conceding less goals or no goals. . Just look at DDG's performance at OT for an illustration of how a keeper can help his team win the match. Peak Cech was even better than current DDG's level.
- I am shocked that Varane has been underestimated here. I have no plans to replace him before the final. Vidic-Varane is as good a pairing you can get in the draft.
- Coentrao being portrayed as a weak link. He was part of the Madrid team that faced Bayern in CL semis last year. He came up against an attack containing Muller, Ribery and Robben. Yet he he was part of the defense that kept a clean sheet away from home. Incidentally in the same match, Kroos started in a MF two with Schwein, something Pep acknowledged was a tactical blunder later on.
- I have never "underrrated" Muller here. I conceded he will have an impact. I stand by my statement that for my side I would rather have Joaquin on right than Muller. (I even had the option to get Robben in drafting last round but stuck with Joaquin). Robbery with Bayern and then Ronaldo+Bale for Madrid have led to people think that inverted wingers is the way to go. I don't agree with that and believe there is great value in playing a winger that would widen the attacking area rather than cutting in all the time. The other comment about him not skinning anyone is valid. His strength lies elsewhere than playing like Ribery or Robben against the fullback.
- Why is brining up Lennon skinning Evra a cheap shot? It did happen, did it not? Evra was indeed the best left back in the world for period of 2 years at least. But even during his peak, he was never a shut out full back ala Cole. He would always give the winger against some chances. Part of it was concealed in the United team when we played Giggs in front of him and also due to Rio-Vida being there.
- Ribery against Juanfran is a better match up for me than any of his widemen against my fullbacks. Peak Ribery remains one of the most underrated players about. There is a reason why he won the UEFA player of the season award that season and came 3rd in Ballon'dor.
- Finally as much as Skizzo may wany to avoid talking about it. I simply have the much much better keeper here. And yes, that does help my defense more and increases my chances of conceding less goals or no goals. . Just look at DDG's performance at OT for an illustration of how a keeper can help his team win the match. Peak Cech was even better than current DDG's level.
As per the rules.
Not to mention the norm is that only one out of manager or assistant (which should not exist in this draft in the first place) posts in match day thread. In any case I will be replying to posts by either one of @Skizzo or @Joga Bonito today. They can decide and nominate one as they please.
Not to mention the norm is that only one out of manager or assistant (which should not exist in this draft in the first place) posts in match day thread. In any case I will be replying to posts by either one of @Skizzo or @Joga Bonito today. They can decide and nominate one as they please.
@Edgar Allan Pillow @Skizzo
We can try to find out who all voted for Skizzo in the first poll and if some votes are not accounted for we can add those to Skizzo's current tally.
We can try to find out who all voted for Skizzo in the first poll and if some votes are not accounted for we can add those to Skizzo's current tally.
As it stands
Skizzo leads 18- 13
Skizzo leads 18- 13
No, leave it as is. The thread was changed early, and Rado made the thread title clear. Whichever way it goes, we should only count the votes that are in the current poll.
The AM was banned to speed up the drafting process. I believe EAP said only one (either manager or "scout") can be posting in the thread at the time, as is the norm in drafts anyway. If you feel like we've ganged up on you, apologies. I'll make sure it's only one of us from here on out.
Sterling is very good defensively? He plays as a pure forward for Liverpool, hard working winger who tracks back each time he is not. He is much more liable to hang up front, waiting for a break. Silva too does not provide better defensive support to midfield than Gerrard.
That is a solid change and IMO Silva is now far more enabled, with movement much closer to him. Still missing a central runner from midfield but I'm now having to reconsider my vote.Fair enough @antohan and @MDFC Manager you do make some compelling points.
Not a sub, but a tactical update. Ball went out for a throw and the word was passed from the bench. Müller was instructed to swap with Sterling, looking to take advantage of the positional naivety of Caceres, and Sterling will be looking to drive at Vidic and unsettle him with pace, his kryptonite.
Cambiasso will swap with Kroos, still picking up Gerrard's runs from deep, while Kroos vigilantly keeps an eye on Moutinho potentially pushing forward.
Godín will still be looking to support Juanfran retaining his RCB role and cover in case Ribery cuts inside
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Cheers.
@Balu - Can you point out how often Muller plays on the left for Bayern? I understand there is a narrative surrounding him that he can play across the offensive line, just want to see the merits of the same.
Now to respond to your points. I'll be heading off probably in a while, so you'll get your time here without me
Underrated? No, I wouldn't say so. But i think you rate him higher than he is in this context. He's a good defender, who hasn't yet reached his peak, or shown his talents on the highest level consistently. No one said he was crap, just not quite as good as you made out. I think it was fair.
I'll address these points together, since they somewhat go hand in hand. You've made comments about Coentrao pushing up to support the attack. Others have even made comments, talking in your favour about him attacking, and you never corrected that. So with Coentrao pushed up, it leaves spaces open to exploit. Also, on one hand you're talking about not using inverted wingers, even though you are? Not quite sure what you were getting at. I assume you mean you wouldn't want to use an IF on each side?
Did I say cheap shot? My point was that you're picking out one player in particular who gave him trouble. It was an anomaly more than anything. You know who else was never a shut out full back ala cole?
Never underrated Ribery. Made mention of it in the OP. I recognized your danger men, commented on them, and said how we would stop them tactically. I still don't think you've acknowledged my team would score, which is a ridiculous stance considering my attack. Oh..but then again...
You have a one man brick wall in goal that has never conceded a goal. I could look at DDG's performances in goal and see him making saves, and I can see him in goal when we shipped 5 at Leicester.
Your keeper would help your defence more and increase your chances of conceding less goals, or no goals.
you know what helps us? Having a better defence to start with, and better protection from midfield. You know what? After looking at it like you are, I think we'd win this 1-0.
Underrated? No, I wouldn't say so. But i think you rate him higher than he is in this context. He's a good defender, who hasn't yet reached his peak, or shown his talents on the highest level consistently. No one said he was crap, just not quite as good as you made out. I think it was fair.
I'll address these points together, since they somewhat go hand in hand. You've made comments about Coentrao pushing up to support the attack. Others have even made comments, talking in your favour about him attacking, and you never corrected that. So with Coentrao pushed up, it leaves spaces open to exploit. Also, on one hand you're talking about not using inverted wingers, even though you are? Not quite sure what you were getting at. I assume you mean you wouldn't want to use an IF on each side?
Did I say cheap shot? My point was that you're picking out one player in particular who gave him trouble. It was an anomaly more than anything. You know who else was never a shut out full back ala cole?
Never underrated Ribery. Made mention of it in the OP. I recognized your danger men, commented on them, and said how we would stop them tactically. I still don't think you've acknowledged my team would score, which is a ridiculous stance considering my attack. Oh..but then again...
You have a one man brick wall in goal that has never conceded a goal. I could look at DDG's performances in goal and see him making saves, and I can see him in goal when we shipped 5 at Leicester.
Your keeper would help your defence more and increase your chances of conceding less goals, or no goals.
you know what helps us? Having a better defence to start with, and better protection from midfield. You know what? After looking at it like you are, I think we'd win this 1-0.
A lot of his runs and breaks come from deep, because he tracked back. He does work hard, whether you want to give him credit for it or not.
Are Ribery and Joaquin tracking back all game?