The Modern / Current Players Draft

Balu said:
The comparison with Yaya Toure is very odd. Kroos is a totally different type of player in my opinion, he's not a luxery player in any way.
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Agreed. I really love Kroos, and don't think he has any thing to be compared with Yaya defensively. Kroos & Modric held Madrid's midfield by themselves, I don't think Yaya and Modric could've, at least not City's Yaya.
Yaya is better going forward though, and with enough freedom from other hard working players around him, Yaya can possibly dominate almost any midfield matchup. Kroos however, is very good positioning wise and will fit in pretty much any midfield. I'd prefer having another defensive aware next to him and in a draft match I wouldn't want Modric to be his partner because the teams they'll face are likely to pressure them at the attack a lot more than what Madrid usually faces.
 
Raees said:
I can see why people see Silva's situation to be the same as Ibrahimovic but I'd argue that he actually has the hallmarks of a top top player but due to his own stupidity in relation to career choices has never featured for a top side whereas Ibrahimovic just isn't all that.. for me he is not a top bracket forward despite his immense talent.
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It's only a recent thing that the very best players are expected to play for the very best clubs as if it's some sort of absolute criteria for proving themselves. It's quite easy to distinguish the top top players irrespective of who they play for.
 
Joga Bonito said:
I honestly don't know but I'm sure he'd have done a better job than Ramos :lol:.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of doubt but it's hard to say really, whether he'd manage to consistently look his normal, impressive invincible self at the testing and highest of levels (not an off color Serie A or a poor Ligue 1), playing alongside top defenders like Vidic/Terry or more frequently against top forwards. His displays at the WC hardly did him any favors though (he was absent for the 7-1 but did look out of sorts in the 3-0 loss)
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Silva did very well to hold that Brazilian defence together and they quickly crashed to rock-bottom level in his absence. The measure of his influence on the park was clear amid the chaos that ensued in the semi-final. Like the greatest defenders he has no discernible weaknesses (which isn't particularly the case for Vidic and Terry) and very few off-days against the best opposition. There's an argument that part of that is down to the quality he has faced at his last two employers. But he has accumulated a strong portfolio of impressive performances, largely through the Champions League but also through some of the league bread-and-butter and his outings for Brazil. And that portfolio isn't necessarily any weaker than many of the highly regarded greats of yesteryear.
 
Annahnomoss said:
The conclusion is very extreme. "He exceeds the historical records of most legendary strikers in history - he's a flat track bully though because he doesn't dominate the 1-3 very best teams in the world even if he just played 4 games against that quality(all against Barcelona) in these 3 years and he scored in 2 out of 4. Then he played 2 games against the worlds best national team, Germany, one of where he had an iconic performance leading terrible Swedish team to a 4-4 draw. Not to forget the magical match up of Cristiano Ronaldo's Portugal versus Zlatan Ibrahimovic where he scored as well. Also scored against France and against "the Spain".

2011-12 CL: 5 goals and 5 assists in 702 minutes(one assist/goal every 70 minutes)
2012-13 he had the highest amount of assists of all players in the Champions League, while scoring 3 goals.
2013-14: highest scoring player behind Cristiano with 10 goals in just 7 matches(one of the best goalscoring ratios in the history of CL for the top strikers), beating Messi/Costa/Lewandowski

There is some levels between a flat track bully, and someone who has a 1:2 return and who has scored against Barcelona every year they faced each other, as well as Spain and Germany.

How many players walk in to a match against Barcelona/Bayern and dominate it, would we be upset with Rooney or RVP if they scored in 1 out of the 2 legs but didn't dominate?

Only players like Messi/Xavi/Ronaldinho/Ronaldo can go in to a match against the best/2nd best team and still dominate the pitch. At the NT level his return is fantastic in the big matches as Sweden is like playing for Leicester.
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Indeed. It's surprising these myths persist around Ibrahimovic.

Raees said:
If you're going to use statistics to justify he's a bigger big game striker than Ruud or on that level.. Its not a discussion worth having. He even managed to sneak a tap in against Barcelona in a 2-2 for PSG which was one of the worst individual performances I have seen by a big name player.. he was missing chances galore and was the worst player on the pitch by a mile.
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That smacks of agenda-fitting. What I said in the match-thread at the time: "He was decent. Clumsy in front of goal, but there was plenty of typically slick hold-up play."
 
Gio said:
Silva did very well to hold that Brazilian defence together and they quickly crashed to rock-bottom level in his absence. The measure of his influence on the park was clear amid the chaos that ensued in the semi-final. Like the greatest defenders he has no discernible weaknesses (which isn't particularly the case for Vidic and Terry) and very few off-days against the best opposition. There's an argument that part of that is down to the quality he has faced at his last two employers. But he has accumulated a strong portfolio of impressive performances, largely through the Champions League but also through some of the league bread-and-butter and his outings for Brazil. And that portfolio isn't necessarily any weaker than many of the highly regarded greats of yesteryear.
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Yeah this is exactly why I tend to give him the benefit of doubt but I just don't think he has done enough at the highest levels to be labelled a great or to be considered better than Vidic or Terry.

I'm willing to be corrected here though as like I've said before, I really like how complete (which I'm a sucker for) and almost flawless he is as a defender. He was extremely impressive for PSG against Barça a few seasons ago and I'd really appreciate it if you could point out more of his notable matches (or individual encounters) at the highest level. He was pretty good against Chelsea as well, exhibiting tremendous pace to recover the ball at times and scoring the winner (more than making up for his bizarre pen) but more examples to refresh my mind would be welcome.
 
Gio said:
It's only a recent thing that the very best players are expected to play for the very best clubs as if it's some sort of absolute criteria for proving themselves. It's quite easy to distinguish the top top players irrespective of who they play for.
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Very much so.

Joga Bonito said:
Yeah this is exactly why I tend to give him the benefit of doubt but I just don't think he has done enough at the highest levels to be labelled a great or to be considered better than Vidic or Terry.

I'm willing to be corrected here though as like I've said before, I really like how complete (which I'm a sucker for) and almost flawless he is as a defender. He was extremely impressive for PSG against Barça a few seasons ago and I'd really appreciate it if you could point out more of his notable matches (or individual encounters) at the highest level. He was pretty good against Chelsea as well, exhibiting tremendous pace to recover the ball at times and scoring the winner (more than making up for his bizarre pen) but more examples to refresh my mind would be welcome.
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Damn that is hard to say, I can't come to think of any Lahm/Terry/Vidic performance that stood out notable either. Primarily because defenders are so much about doing their job in the quiet and being as consistent as possible. Like Luiz/Ramos can have games where he absolutely dominates but that means nothing in comparison to the consistency. I know you know all this, just explaining why it is hard to remember the full 90 minutes and if he did no mistakes and what not in that game. To see the influence of Thiago on his teams look at Brazil or PSG without him, they would never beat Chelsea without him - at least as important as Zlatan if not more in the big games as he always performs.

But first 1-1 game of 2013-14 vs Falcao pre-injury - one of the best strikers in the world and a team that are currently beating the third placed Arsenal with 3-1 in the CL in the quarter finals.

He decided the game with a great 2nd assist through a perfect long ball behind the full back that created the goal.

2nd game against Monaco he had two outstanding moments. One for a cross where he showed great resilience, balance and anticipation to stay on his feet and ready. But the one that stood out even more was a very high ball, just a ball for the goalkeeper to collect and not a lot of defenders would ever decide to take the challenge with the Monaco attacker.

But Silva somehow predicted that the keeper would have issues and rightly so the keeper completely mistimed his jump and Silva's very aggressive challenge on the Monaco attacker saved the day. Should mention that he deflected a cross in to the own goal but it wasn't much of to do.

What especially sets Silva apart is that he doesn't stay in the defensive line. He looks for every opportunity to step up and intercept it 5 metres ahead of the line and he does so perfectly.

Here's a bunch of great plays from him, I doubt I can offer anything as concise as this.


I will backtrack a bit to see if I can remember more.
 
That hideous Barça jersey and Messi at 16.15 :lol::lol::lol:.

Pretty impressive video and he really was excellent against Barça, it has to be said.

Cheers for that vid and those examples @Annahnomoss .
 
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Joga Bonito said:
That hideous Barça jersey and Messi at 16.15 :lol::lol::lol:.

Pretty impressive video and he really was excellent against Barça, it has to be said.

Cheers for that vid and those examples @Annahnomoss .
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No worries, glad you enjoyed. That is what the forums are about, impossible to watch all games alone but you can get a pretty damn good view of how things are going for different teams and the different leagues when people watch different matches as their "standards".

Balu has said so many great things about Boateng I just have to sit down the first opportunity I get to get to watch him. What he's said goes against all my opinions on Boateng but they were honestly based mostly on his crap performances in the EPL so it needed updating.
 
You didn't watch Boateng in WC final?
 
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This season Bayern and United annoyingly often played at the same time, at least I have that impression because I saw way less of van Gaal's beautiful work than I wanted to. It got a bit better since the winterbreak though. Still, a few of his great CL performances definitely should have been available to you. He was fantastic in the 1-0 home win against City for example, scoring the game winning goal in the last minute was really just the icing on the cake.
 
Balu said:
I saw way less of van Gaal's beautiful work than I wanted to
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Yeah, me too. I saw every game of the season though :(

But I have to say that I still like him very much and have all the faith in the world in him
 
You guys just don't appreciate the beauty in it. You don't understand the philosophy, you really don't get it. Philistines, all of you are philistines.
 
He's made a few questionable decisions and has been unnaturally stubborn at times but I do believe that he is the man for the job. Expecting to see a much better second season (where we have CL :nervous: and DDG :().
 
Balu said:
You guys just don't appreciate the beauty in it. You don't understand the philosophy, you really don't get it. Philistines, all of you are philistines.
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The main reason he doesn't want to win the league, because then he has to make a speech like the Queen.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Fair enough Boateng is certainly the more complete and more expansive player on the ball but Godin is no slouch in this regard and is comfortable on the ball. Like you said there's not much between them but personally I'll have Godin over Boateng myself. Certainty not outrageous to claim otherwise though.

Yup Boateng is the pacier CB and is capable of excelling in a high line. Godin on the other hand is the better no nonsense defender who's better versed in the dark arts of defending and is a rock at the back. Not that Boateng is bad at this regard but you get my point.
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All well and goood @Balu and @crappycraperson, but Godín also has a knack of scoring in important games when his uber-organised teams can't seem to find a way through.
  • La Liga Player of the Month in April and May 2014, exactly when it mattered with Real/Barca breathing down their neck
  • Scored against Barca in the 1-1 away final game and decider (Barca would have been Champions otherwise)
  • Scored against Real in the CL in what would have been the winner except for that cnut Ramos in the 11th hour :mad:
  • Scored against Italy in the World Cup to knock them out and qualify Uruguay, in a game where our strikers were so frustrated they were going around biting people
Boateng has been excellent, but the most valuable defender to have in the last couple of seasons it's Godín, no two ways about it.
 
antohan said:
Boateng has been excellent, but the most valuable defender to have in the last couple of seasons it's Godín, no two ways about it.
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120 minutes,

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6 tackles,

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3 interceptions

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and 9 clearances later

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But yeah, fair enough. Godin scored a goal that almost won Atletico the CL. Good job ;). For what it's worth, I agree that Godin had an exceptional season last year and deserved to be the hero in that CL final. No doubt about that. But then, I honestly believe that Bayern wouldn't have won the CL in 2013 and Germany wouldn't have won the World Cup in 2014 without Boateng. He was incredible in both finals.
 
Balu said:
deutschland-argentinien-user-talk-med.jpg


120 minutes,

messi-argentinien-boateng-deutschland-29-08-2014-imago-16952727h.jpg


6 tackles,

jerome-boateng-re-war-im-endspiel-immer-einen-schritt-schneller-als-die-argentinier-hier-lionel-messi-.jpg


3 interceptions

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and 9 clearances later

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But yeah, fair enough. Godin scored a goal that almost won Atletico the CL. Good job ;). For what it's worth, I agree that Godin had an exceptional season last year and deserved to be the hero in that CL final. No doubt about that. But then, I honestly believe that Bayern wouldn't have won the CL in 2013 and Germany wouldn't have won the World Cup in 2014 without Boateng. He was incredible in both finals.
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I suppose you could make all that German team the best in the World on the back of winning the World Cup. It's easy to sing-along when everyone is on song ;)

As said, he's been excellent, but I wouldn't mark him out as the standout performer for Germany or Bayern, and definitely not one that makes shit happen out of sheer will when the team is having a poor game. I rate that side of a player very highly, as you know.

Also, why pick the "almost won the CL" goal, but not the "won the league breaking up years of Real/Barca domination" goal. Cheeky.
 
antohan said:
Also, why pick the "almost won the CL" goal, but not the "won the league breaking up years of Real/Barca domination" goal. Cheeky.
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Because it was obviously tongue in cheek ffs. Godin has been outstanding, a true leader and I praised him for scoring the league winning goal and the almost CL winning goal before.

antohan said:
I suppose you could make all that German team the best in the World on the back of winning the World Cup. It's easy to sing-along when everyone is on song ;)
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To be fair to Boateng, Dante in the CL final and Hummels in the World Cup final tried their best to spoil the party. And Kroos made more dangerous passes to Argentine players than to Germans. They definitely needed someone to save their asses (Neuer in goal maybe helped a tiny bit as well though).

/edit: it's also nice to have a discussion that highlights quality defensive displays in the game today instead of the usual 'all defenders are shit' thing. While this generation of defenders is certainly not great, it's not as bad as most people make it out to be.
 
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@antohan

You don't need to convince me of Godín's pedigree. I rate him very highly and consider him, hands down, the best CB in the past 2-3 years.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-modern-current-players-draft.401628/page-18#post-17154097

However, I do rate Boateng very highly too so I can see why some might think he's up there or thereabouts of Godín.

His display against Barça though :drool:. One of the best, if not the best, individual defensive master classes in recent history.

The pressure must have been intense, they hadn't won the league in nearly 20 years and were going up against a traditional powerhouse in Barça at Camp Nou.

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Granted, they had beaten Barça in the CL but this game would be the vindication of their superhuman efforts throughout the season. Bottle it and everything goes to shite.

The match didn't go according to plan initially with their best attacking player Costa limping off in tears before the first 15 mins which was further compounded by key player Turan going off injured 10 mins later, Godín receiving a yellow fairly early on (after the goal though) and all of which was topped off by Alexis Sanchez scoring a wonder goal against the run of play soon after.

You can just imagine what must have been going on in the Atletico players heads after all that. Perhaps it just wasn't meant to be?

Godín and Simeone were having none of that though and came roaring back in the second half. You could just see that they just wanted it more (much much more) and it culminated in Godín's 'winner'.

He was just a proverbial rock throughout the match and repelled just about everything thrown at him like an impregnable wall. Unbelievable display of bloddy mindedness and sheer defensive class.

 
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Balu said:
Because it was obviously tongue in cheek ffs. Godin has been outstanding, a true leader and I praised him for scoring the league winning goal and the almost CL winning goal before.
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Errr... that's what I said, that you were being cheeky ;)

To be fair to Boateng, Dante in the CL final and Hummels in the World Cup final tried their best to spoil the party. And Kroos made more dangerous passes to Argentine players than to Germans. They definitely needed someone to save their asses (Neuer in goal maybe helped a tiny bit as well though).

/edit: it's also nice to have a discussion that highlights quality defensive displays in the game today instead of the usual 'all defenders are shit' thing. While this generation of defenders is certainly not great, it's not as bad as most people make it out to be.
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Agreed. There's very few examples though and they mostly happen to be current world champions, which was my point ;)

Shame Thiago is stuck at PSG, he is jeopardising his legacy wasting away his career in a second rate league but, as someone pointed out, you only had to see the WC semifinal to see what a difference he made (and no, the 3rd place game counts for jack, they had all lost the will to live).
 
antohan said:
Errr... that's what I said, that you were being cheeky ;)



Agreed. There's very few examples though and they mostly happen to be current world champions, which was my point ;)

Shame Thiago is stuck at PSG, he is jeopardising his legacy wasting away his career in a second rate league but, as someone pointed out, you only had to see the WC semifinal to see what a difference he made(and no, the 3rd place game counts for jack, they had all lost the will to live) .
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I agree, it was win or die for Brazil. After that defeat against the Germans there was no way that Silva coming back would compensate for the morale loss of the trashing.

I rate Godin as a top defender too. I hadn't seen La Liga regularly and now I don't have much option but to watch it and he's the one that has grown in my eyes from before.
 
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antohan said:
Shame Thiago is stuck at PSG, he is jeopardising his legacy wasting away his career in a second rate league but, as someone pointed out, you only had to see the WC semifinal to see what a difference he made (and no, the 3rd place game counts for jack, they had all lost the will to live).
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I would give him more credit for the World Cup if it wasn't entirely his own fault, that he missed the semifinal. I still remember how I was sitting in front of the tv and burst into laughter, because the route to the final became so much more easy. The two biggest games of his life are in front of him and he does that?

He's easily the best centerback of this generation, but his career so far is still a bit of a clusterfeck and it's not because he's unlucky. The move to PSG certainly didn't help, but then, let them have a deep run in the CL this season and it looks very different.
 
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Balu said:
I would give him more credit for the World Cup if it wasn't entirely his own fault, that he missed the semifinal. I still remember how I was sitting in front of the tv and burst into laughter, because the route to the final became so much more easy. The two biggest games of his life are in front of him and he does that?

He's easily the best centerback of this generation, but his career so far is still a bit of a clusterfeck and it's not because he's unlucky. The move to PSG certainly didn't help, but then, let them have a deep run in the CL this season and it looks very different.
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Fair enough, that was a bit mental, but how can I complain when our best player was in the form of his life and the key to our fortunes, but chose to go around chewing up people?

We all love the romance of Gazza in tears or Keane playing out of his skin in the semi against Juve in '99, or laugh at Ivanovic's interview or JT full kit wanker, but we completely overlook those cases where players on the edge of suspension for a big game stay cool and composed and achieve the objective without a suspension. It's what they are supposed to do, but every now and then you get a reminder, like Thiago's against Colombia that maybe we should be more appreciative of those devoid of the knack of doing stupid things. I for one have always admired that in German sides, the inherent quality of not letting pressure turn them into brainless idiots :lol:
 
Balu said:
I would give him more credit for the World Cup if it wasn't entirely his own fault, that he missed the semifinal. I still remember how I was sitting in front of the tv and burst into laughter, because the route to the final became so much more easy. The two biggest games of his life are in front of him and he does that?

He's easily the best centerback of this generation, but his career so far is still a bit of a clusterfeck and it's not because he's unlucky. The move to PSG certainly didn't help, but then, let them have a deep run in the CL this season and it looks very different.
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Can't disagree about the yellow card moment that is something one can't overlook when judging him. Makes for another interesting perspective where Silva shines, where most people wouldn't think.

He's only ever been sent off once, and that red card card was a huge referee blunder and had nothing to do with the game. The referee ran in to Silva's chest and got scared and gave Silva a red.

Very rarely collects yellows too, averaging 1-2 yellows a league season - something like 1 yellow every 15 games. In the national cups he has the same ratio pretty much, only ever collected two since moving to Europe. In the Champions League it is also 1 in 15 matches, and for the national team he's collected 1 in 10 pretty much.

Those are some incredible statistics to be fair. Boateng has 5 reds/37 yellows in 223 games in league play. 6 in 20 in the national cups, 16 yellows in 76 games in European cups and 8 yellows and 1 red in 52 games for Germany.

As he's improved massively we can single out just this season for interest and he has 8 yellows and a red in 52 games. 11 yellows and 2 reds in 51 games last season.

*The Silva source are probably not perfect for his time in the brazilian league.
 
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