MMA judging needs a serious looking into. I thought Dom won but I understand it was close and a 48-7 x3 either way would have been fine. But how on earth did one judge give 4 rounds!!! To Jones makes no sense. It was the same judge who had Martinez losing the first two rounds in that fight... That needs to be investigated.
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Reyes won the first three rounds for me and should have won the fight. Baffling how all judges gave it to Jones. The last card in particular beyond a joke.
Everyone whinging about the Jones Reyes result 
Standard procedure...
Reyes put pressure on in first round and rocked Jones a couple of times
But as the fight went on Jones started to control the pace and the centre of the Octagon
If you’re going to beat the champion then you have to do something more than Reyes did
That said, the judge that scored it 49-46, not sure about that at all
Standard procedure...
Reyes put pressure on in first round and rocked Jones a couple of times
But as the fight went on Jones started to control the pace and the centre of the Octagon
If you’re going to beat the champion then you have to do something more than Reyes did
That said, the judge that scored it 49-46, not sure about that at all
Exactly, as the challenger you have to win decisively
Jones’s control of the rounds he won is also easier to overlook because of his more defensive nature and the fact he doesn’t have as many impressive looking flourishes
Even the significant strikes were pretty much even by the end
Reyes did well but nowhere near enough
Oh i forgot to mention
Valentina
She should be the main event instead of Jones next time
Valentina
She should be the main event instead of Jones next time
Never known how one becomes a judge for combat sports. Anyone know what the process is?
Don't know about fixing as opposed to some of these people just having no idea what they are doing.
Don't know about fixing as opposed to some of these people just having no idea what they are doing.
Rewatched the fight this morning with the sound off, it’s crazy how much the commentators can influence your opinion of the fight. Honestly, I feel like a draw would have been a fair result, though if anyone edged round 3 it was Reyes.
it’s always been this way though in both boxing and MMA, that when a championship fight goes to the scorecards and the challenger didn’t completely dominate, they usually give it to the champion. I don’t really have an issue with that, and Reyes interview alluded to him understanding it as well. It’s not fair, but if you’re going to take a champions belt on the scorecards, it has to be pretty decisive.
it’s always been this way though in both boxing and MMA, that when a championship fight goes to the scorecards and the challenger didn’t completely dominate, they usually give it to the champion. I don’t really have an issue with that, and Reyes interview alluded to him understanding it as well. It’s not fair, but if you’re going to take a champions belt on the scorecards, it has to be pretty decisive.
Bit of an exaggeration, that.
If that is "standard procedure," it means MMA has work to do, not accept it with a shrug and become everything people hate about boxing.
Oh i forgot to mention
Valentina
She should be the main event instead of Jones next time
There’s no one left for either her or Nunes to fight in their divisions anymore, which is why they need to fight. The Valentina of the present would beat her imo.
People are acting as though Jones was outclassed.
Reyes won rounds one and two.
There was a cnut’s hair separating the duo in round three.
Jones won rounds four and five by a clear margin.
Two of the three scorecards were about right, although the third was clearly a shocker.
Reyes has done enough to unquestionably deserve a re-match but he didn’t win that first fight in my mind.
A case can be made for Jones winning, sure, but it's the sense of resignation that things should invariably go a champion's way when it's close is what MMA shouldn't settle for. Albeit ideal, fighters shouldn't have to KO or utterly outclass a champion to be considered a winner. If that is the mentality, do away with five rounds and let them throw bombs for three.
I understand your point, but that’s the nature of the judging system which is subjective in nature. You’re always going to get the reigning champion being favoured if the margins are too tight and I can kind of understand that because the stakes are too high to start crowning a new king unless it’s an obvious victory.
I do wonder whether we are going to be at the stage any time soon when AI / ML is going to start being used to make decisions. They should start training models in parallel with the current system to test how ‘accurate’ the outcomes could be.
I get the impression Rogan influences the narrative of how fights are going, which is very annoying since he tends to exaggerate a lot of things that happen and often lead people to think fighter A was doing better than they actually were.
Sounds like what Neville does on Sky’s football coverage
Reyes won the first two rounds by the same clear margin Jones won the last two. This is obvious. The third seems to be the most controversial however Reyes threw and landed the most strikes and exerted the most pressure.
Id accept a draw but for me Jones didn't do enough to deserve the win.
Problem with Jones is because they've built up this aura of invincibility about him, as soon as it goes to the judges it's never going to go against him unless he gets beaten up for 5 rounds.
If that was anyone else they probably award the fight to Reyes.
Jones has looked laboured for the last 2-3 fights now I think. He's managing his way through fights instead of commanding them.
If that was anyone else they probably award the fight to Reyes.
Jones has looked laboured for the last 2-3 fights now I think. He's managing his way through fights instead of commanding them.
The stats alone don’t tell the story of round three IMO – yes, Reyes landed more, but his striking wasn’t that devastating because Jones has evasive qualities. I never like the significant strikes count without context because it lacks nuance – throwing 10 accurate punches is better than 50 wild ones, for example. It’s only intuition but I just felt like Jones was in control from round three onwards, whereas he had been out of his comfort zone a little in the first two.
A draw would have been a fair enough outcome, I agree, but I don’t think it’s a great robbery that Jones got the decision on the scorecards, although the 49-46 was a shocker no doubt
On the flip side of that argument, it can easily be said that a champion should prove their worth and comprehensively defeat opponents, otherwise what is a champion who has questionable victories hanging over their head.
I wonder if there is something in the pipeline for scoring fights. At the very least, I'd like to see a suggestion like Alvarez' taken into consideration and have people more familiar with the sport take a prominent role in judging.
Just going back to Jones, I appreciate the fact that he is a draw who will now continue to pull in people to see him get beat. It was a great fight and I came away much happier than I did after having watched Conor crush a guy who had started a losing streak.
Draw would've been a very fair result. Jones seemed to think the takedowns swung the decision his way even though those takedowns amounted to absolutely nothing and Reyes managed to power out of all of them pretty much.
People always talk about a laboured style when fighters become more adept at managing bouts.
I personally never felt like Jones was in major trouble and Reyes performed credibly without ever putting clear daylight between him and Jones.
Until we have a change in the way fights are scored, the onus will always be on the challenger to put it beyond doubt – and I personally don’t mind that.
I think you make a fair point about champions needing to prove their mettle. It was a really enjoyable fight and want to see them go at it again. Would be great to see if Jones finds a way to get Reyes on the canvas next time.
Not true at all.
TJ won his fight Vs Cruz and still lost the belt.
Cejudo vs MM... If Cejudo won, it was by a even lower margin than Reyes won last night.
I think judges have instructions to give the fight to certain people. Corrupt judges just like in boxing.
AI should definitely be the one scoring. Shit is not rocket science. Just score the fight according to the judging criteria, and not based on the screams of fecking Joe Rogan.
What takedowns?
Exactly.
I didn’t have Rogan, as I live in another country. I had a very passive/dull Thiago Santo as a guest commentator with Minotauro.
Santos felt like Jones edged it too, but that’s the fight game.
I was expecting that vicious and explosive Jones to come along as Reyes started to tire, but he never did. I don’t think he is capable of it anymore, be that miles on the clock or steroid abuse.
It’s impossible to rub out that asterix beside his name now, as he doesn’t seem to be able to show that insane level post-steroid drama.
He is still very good and has a great IQ, but I think he lost last night and his experience and the judges got him through.
Someone has a massive opportunity with Jones, because it’s starting to become more apparent that he is there to be taken. The gap is still there, but it is as small as it has ever been.
Santos felt like Jones edged it too, but that’s the fight game.
I was expecting that vicious and explosive Jones to come along as Reyes started to tire, but he never did. I don’t think he is capable of it anymore, be that miles on the clock or steroid abuse.
It’s impossible to rub out that asterix beside his name now, as he doesn’t seem to be able to show that insane level post-steroid drama.
He is still very good and has a great IQ, but I think he lost last night and his experience and the judges got him through.
Someone has a massive opportunity with Jones, because it’s starting to become more apparent that he is there to be taken. The gap is still there, but it is as small as it has ever been.
I posted and deleted this last night..apparently it's a fake account. (It follows me on twitter so it must be fake)
Interesting that Jones landed a higher percentage of significant strikes throughout....
This favour champions shite means judges would have to go back and rescore round 1 through 3 due to 4 and 5?
Judging in all conbat sports sucks balls then so. It doesnt make sense
Judging in all conbat sports sucks balls then so. It doesnt make sense
They should look at trialling AI
My only concern is losing the nuance - i.e bald stats don’t always tell the story
There's no way it would work imo. Judging is an implicitly human quality that relies on intersubjective nuance, which wouldn't translate to machine learning.
That’s my gut feeling too
You just never know though – some of the ML models in other industries are becoming so sophisticated.
But I tend to agree, sometimes data just won’t convey what the eye can see
Fact is, so long as we are relying on three blokes to make a subjective decision, we are gonna have these circular debates in boxing and MMA, especially when a challenger runs a champion close
It’s a tough one to resolve
I think they could keep the human element, while still improving the system if they want to.
I would start by using more judges. 7 or 9.
Also, live scoring is a must. Public and fighters should be aware of the scorecards as the fight progresses. (To avoid end of the fight score editing...)
Improving the judges quality should be easy to do too (if they wanted to).
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Same, had the portuguese commentators on and they also had Reyes winning. It has nothing to do with the commentators.
Almost every UFC division looks reigned by a very dominant fighter as of now. Who will be the first to be dethroned?
I can't imagine Cejudo, Khabib, Adesanya, Usman, Jones, Valentina or Amanda being defeated by anyone in their divisions now. I think Volkanovski, Miocic or Zhang have their positions in a more vulnerable situation. Who will be the next title surprise?
Man, can't wait for the next two belt fights! They look so on paper
I can't imagine Cejudo, Khabib, Adesanya, Usman, Jones, Valentina or Amanda being defeated by anyone in their divisions now. I think Volkanovski, Miocic or Zhang have their positions in a more vulnerable situation. Who will be the next title surprise?
Man, can't wait for the next two belt fights! They look so
on paperInteresting that Jones landed a higher percentage of significant strikes throughout....
Yet there are still folks who think reyes was robbed.
Am i blind or does that graph say Reyes landed more significant strikes over the first 3 rounds? What am i missing here?
So Reyes swung more and hit more yet somehow says he should lose?
So Reyes swung more and hit more yet somehow says he should lose?
Not sure I agree. He's been adept at managing fights for some time, but the last few that's pretty much all he's doing. Almost like Mayweather...he just absorbs or defends what the other person has to offer then does a few things to please the judges, rather than actually outmatch his opponent.
It's not really winning the fight. Just surviving it. I don't think there should be any advantage to a champion really. If they're supposed to be the best they should be capable of beating whoever is put in front of them.
I do think the way fights are judged is a bit silly but short of just carrying on until someone quits or gets knocked out I'm not sure there's an easy answer.
It was a close fight but the fact even Jones thought the reason he won was due to some pretty pointless and ineffective takedowns shows that at the very least it's up for debate.
Absolutely nothing. Percentages only mean that Jones was more efficient with his striking, but he still got hit more for three full rounds.
It’s quite easy to see why people think the decision should have gone to Reyes.
Also clear from the very seem graph, that Reyes has a much higher percentage of head and body shots. He was clearly getting the better of him in the first three rounds.