The MMA thread

[George Owen]

This was based on peak Tony who was scheduled to fight Khabib several years ago, not the shell of his former self we've seen over the past few fights. He is clearly no longer the fighter who went on the run he did years ago, which tends to happen once fighters get on the wrong side of their 30s.

Oliveira is currently at his peak and is the best submission specialist in UFC history, which at a minimum would make a Khabib fight competitive. Its actually bizarre that anyone thinks otherwise given that the center of mass in MMA is having a strong ground game.

This.

The only certainty is that Khabib ran away at his prime, after manhandling a bunch of strikers.

How he would have fared against top grapplers with good striking like Arman, Charles or Islam (or Tony at his prime)? or even Chandler? (styles make fights..)

We will never know...

 

[Duafc]

We're not talking about the present. They were supposed to fight at least three times between 2015 to 2019. That's the Ferguson I was referring to.

Nonsense - you said it in Jan 20 so it could only be that Ferguson who’d fought in June 19....genuinely mental to take 3/4 years off when comparing 2 active fighters as they were in Jan 2020.

Not withstanding the fact that whatever version of Tony you’d like to time machine up Khabib would 8/10 times stifled and dominated him on the ground.

 

[Raoul]

Khabib would beat Oliviera handidly if they ever fought. But as plenty have pointed out in this thread, even if that fight were to materialize and Khabib were to decimate Charles, there will always be people who would then insist thatnew fighter X matches up most favourably against Khabib.

I remember reading about it before the Conor fight, before Khabib emasculated him, then before the Dustin fight, before Khabib dominated almost the entire fight without breaking a sweat, and most recently before the Gaethje fight, when Gaethje's All American wrestling was supposed to be the antidote to Khabib's sambo.

In all case, Khabib brushed them aside with contempuous ease. And they're all arguably better fighters than Oliviera.

Sorry, I just don't buy into the infallibility of Khabib. He finished his career at the top of his game which is apparently skewing perceptions of how good he actually was. He nearly lost to Poirier and from 2014-2018, was not as good as he was in his final 3 fights. Ferguson on the other hand, was significantly better during that period than his final three fights. Therefore, they were pretty much considered choice 1 and choice 1a in the LW division during the period when the UFC attempted to make the fight.

 

[Raoul]

Nonsense - you said it in Jan 20 so it could only be that Ferguson who’d fought in June 19....genuinely mental to take 3/4 years off when comparing 2 active fighters as they were in Jan 2020.

Not withstanding the fact that whatever version of Tony you’d like to time machine up Khabib would 8/10 times stifled and dominated him on the ground.

I said it in Jan of 20, based on the fighter he was during the preceding era of his career. Is it getting clearer ?

 

[Raoul]

This.

The only certainty is that Khabib ran away at his prime, after manhandling a bunch of strikers.

How he would have fared against top grapplers with good striking like Arman, Charles or Islam (or Tony at his prime)? or even Chandler?

We will never know...

Which is why I think Khabib should come back while he's still relatively young to answer the question of Oliveira. If he somehow manages to win then that will elevate him to another level in the pantheon of greats. I personally think he wants to retain the undefeated career record, which is why he may not return.

 

[Duafc]

I said it in Jan of 20, based on the fighter he was during the preceding era of his career. Is it getting clearer ?

Yeah, it’s pretty clear.

I can get being hyped up on Oliveira after how he’s looked lately though I still think it’s OTT.

To double down on the Tony comments just smacks of being completely incapable of accepting you were totally wrong.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I think the Gaethje we’ve seen the last year is the most likely to be the dominant one of that group if he maintains his level.

I’d fancy Oliveira against Dustin and especially Conor but I wouldn’t like to bet any of them.

We'll get to see him against the winner of trilogy, but I'm leaning the other way. I think he'd get knocked out before he's able to do anything on the ground, especially against Dustin who's no slouchin that department.

Spamming takedowns against Tony Ferguson works because he has no take-down defense and never did. That's why the Kevin Lee's of the world were mounting him at will when he was in his prime and why Beneil is able to do so right now. Moreover, both Charles and Dariush were getting on the inside without a care in the world because they had no respect for Tony's punching power. That wouldnt be the case with Conor or Dustin.

If he does manage to get them down, then he's at a huge advantage and - if given time to work - I think you'd be right and he'd likely beat both Dustin and Conor. But he's still susceptible to getting knocked out. His striking defense has never been his strength, and he could have easily been knocked out last night after Chandler was repeatedly tagging him.

For what's its worth, if either fight were to materialize, I would want Charles to win. But like you, I'm not sure i would put money on him doing it.

 

[Raoul]

Here is where the fault in your logic lies. Yes he has the most submission victories in the UFC. That however is over 10 years of fighting in the UFC. That does not make him the best submission specialist in UFC. It gives him the most submission finishes. Keep feeding Mackenzie Dern no hopers and she’ll have that beat in half the time.
Heck Kron is still in the UFC as well.

At the end of the day, he has the most submissions in UFC history...by some distance. This is a fact. After that, let the subjective arguments begin.

Who do you think is currently better on the ground than Charles Oliveira ?

 

[Raoul]

Yeah, it’s pretty clear.

I can get being hyped up on Oliveira after how he’s looked lately though I still think it’s OTT.

To double down on the Tony comments just smacks of being completely incapable of accepting you were totally wrong.

How could I be wrong, when Khabib and Tony never fought during the period in question ?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Which is why I think Khabib should come back while he's still relatively young to answer the question of Oliveira. If he somehow manages to win then that will elevate him to another level in the pantheon of greats. I personally think he wants to retain the undefeated career record, which is why he may not return.

What question of Oliveira? Nobody thinks that Oliveira is a threat to Khabib because the latter is on another level. The idea that Khabib has to come back to prove himself in any way by beating a man with 8 losses on his record, and that a win against said fighter would elevate him to another level in the pantheon of greats (when Khabib is already discussed as part of the upper tier of all time fighters ) is a little odd.

The suggestion that Khabib isn't coming back because he fears that Oliveira - of all people - will break undefeated record is just downright bizzare.

 

[Duafc]

How could I be wrong, when Khabib and Tony never fought during the period in question ?

Yeah, how could you possibly be wrong - you got me.

Have a good evening!

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Sorry, I just don't buy into the infallibility of Khabib. He finished his career at the top of his game which is apparently skewing perceptions of how good he actually was. He nearly lost to Poirier and from 2014-2018, was not as good as he was in his final 3 fights. Ferguson on the other hand, was significantly better during that period than his final three fights. Therefore, they were pretty much considered choice 1 and choice 1a in the LW division during the period when the UFC attempted to make the fight.

Nothing like a straw man. Who mentioned infallibility? He still is the greatest lightweight ever by a significant margin and was always the better fighter than Ferguson, by a landslide.

Tony's struggles against grapplers do not indicate that he would have been competitive against the greatest grappler in the sport.

 

[Raoul]

What question of Oliveira? Nobody thinks that Oliveira is a threat to Khabib because the latter is on another level. The idea that Khabib has to come back to prove himself in any way by beating a man with 8 losses on his record, and that a win against said fighter would elevate him to another level in the pantheon of greats (when Khabib is already discussed as part of the upper tier of all time fighters ) is a little odd.

The suggestion that Khabib isn't coming back because he fears that Oliveira - of all people - will break undefeated record is just downright bizzare.

Finishing ones career undefeated is a tremendous thing when people consider fighters in the pantheon of GOATs. Even Jones, has blemishes on his record.

As for Oliveira - styles make fights. Both are excellent on the ground and have comparable standup skills, so questions are bound to be asked about matching them up.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

At the end of the day, he has the most submissions in UFC history...by some distance. This is a fact. After that, let the subjective arguments begin.

Who do you think is currently better on the ground than Charles Oliveira ?

Usman for starters.

 

[cyberman]

Finishing ones career undefeated is a tremendous thing when people consider fighters in the pantheon of GOATs. Even Jones, has blemishes on his record.

As for Oliveira - styles make fights. Both are excellent on the ground and have comparable standup skills, so questions are bound to be asked about matching them up.

Being good on the ground is a waste of time v Khabib. Its not hold v hold, Khabib would lay on top of him and just punch him for 3 minutes. Nobody gets a chance for counters etc because Khabib doesnt have to go for those himself.
Its Khabib smesh for a reason.

 

[Raoul]

Nothing like a straw man. Who mentioned infallibility? He still is the greatest lightweight ever by a significant margin and was always the better fighter than Ferguson, by a landslide.

Tony's struggles against grapplers do not indicate that he would have been competitive against the greatest grappler in the sport.

Again, the Khabib of 2014-2017/18 was not as good as the Khabib who finished his last three fights as strongly as he did. The Tony of the same period (2014/18) was significantly better than the aging Tony of the past couple of years. Had they fought around 2017, there is simply nothing to indicate either would've had the advantage since Ferguson was at his peak during that time. Would Tony have won ? Possibly not. Would Khabib be guaranteed to rag doll peak Tony for 5 rounds ? Likely not. It would've been a great fight, which is why the UFC went out of its way to make it so many times.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Finishing ones career undefeated is a tremendous thing when people consider fighters in the pantheon of GOATs. Even Jones, has blemishes on his record.

As for Oliveira - styles make fights. Both are excellent on the ground and have comparable standup skills, so questions are bound to be asked about matching them up.

Ofcourse it is. And Khabib is unblimished. Agreeing on the fact that having the greatest record in MMA history is special doesn't lend credence to a wild suggestion that a man who has never lost is afraid of getting that streak broken by a man with 8 losses, and that this is the reason Khabib isn't coming back. That's so outrageous that it's borderline trolling.

Agree with your second point. And an inferior grappler (which is natural given that Khabib is the best lightweight grappler ever) who focuses on grappling isn't exactly stuff that would suggest that he'd be a bad matchup for Khabib. If anything, that's exactly what Khabib would prefer.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Again, the Khabib of 2014-2017/18 was not as good as the Khabib who finished his last three fights as strongly as he did. The Tony of the same period (2014/18) was significantly better than the aging Tony of the past couple of years. Had they fought around 2017, there is simply nothing to indicate either would've had the advantage since Ferguson was at his peak during that time. Would Tony have won ? Possibly not. Would Khabib be guaranteed to rag doll peak Tony for 5 rounds ? Likely not. It would've been a great fight, which is why the UFC went out of its way to make it so many times.

Again. Why ask whether Khabib is "guaranteed" to smash someone for 5 rounds. This is a question regarding your post in January 2020 that Ferguson is a better fighter than Khabib and that 'nobody' you spoke to thinks Khabib would have smashed Tony.

Others are bringing it up because it's asinine, in every sense. Tony Ferguson of 2019 isn't any better on the ground than current Tony is. Khabib would have taken him down with ease and there is nothing Tony would have been able to do, because he's at a severe disparity when it comes to skill level on the ground.

 

[Raoul]

Again. Why ask whether Khabib is "guaranteed" to smash someone for 5 rounds. This is a question regarding your post in January 2020 that Ferguson is a better fighter than Khabib and that 'nobody' you spoke to thinks Khabib would have smashed Tony.

Others are bringing it up because it's asinine, in every sense. Tony Ferguson of 2019 isn't any better on the ground than current Tony is. Khabib would have taken him down with ease and there is nothing Tony would have been able to do, because he's at a severe disparity when it comes to skill level on the ground.

This was the general consensus among fighters and pundits in the MMA community. Some people thought Khabib would win, others favored Tony. It wasn't a slam dunk for either by any means.

 

[Raoul]

Usman for starters.

He has a wrestling background but is viewed as a striker these days. Most of the time in his previous 5 or so fights since Woodley has been in standup.

 

[Raoul]

This.

The only certainty is that Khabib ran away at his prime, after manhandling a bunch of strikers.

How he would have fared against top grapplers with good striking like Arman, Charles or Islam (or Tony at his prime)? or even Chandler? (styles make fights..)

We will never know...

Agreed. I think Oliveira and Chandler would be excellent opponents for Khabib.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

This was the general consensus among fighters and pundits in the MMA community. Some people thought Khabib would win, others favored Tony. It wasn't a slam dunk for either by any means.

No it wasn't. The MMA community wasn't asked whether Khabib could 'smash' Tony or vice versa. They were asked who they thought they'd win. Just as many thought Justin Gaethje had a chance to win before Khabib beat him with ease last October.

None of that has anything to do with your actual comment, though. If you're claiming with a straight face that nobody you know or spoke to thought Khabib would dominate Tony, then I'm not sure how to respond.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Agreed. I think Oliveira and Chandler would be excellent opponents for Khabib.

Sure. Just as Conor and Justin were.

 

[Raoul]

No it wasn't. The MMA community wasn't asked whether Khabib could 'smash' Tony or vice versa. They were asked who they thought they'd win. Just as many thought Justin Gaethje had a chance to win before Khabib beat him with ease last October.

None of that has anything to do with your actual comment, though. If you're claiming with a straight face that nobody you know or spoke to thought Khabib would dominate Tony, then I'm not sure how to respond.

Precisely and the fact that some thought one would win and others favored the other, suggests there were conflicting opinions, which means people thought there would be no smashing. If done several years ago, the fight could've literally gone either way.

 

[Raoul]

Sure. Just as Conor and Justin were.

Yes the tap machine with no ground game and the guy who came within a whisker of guillotining Khabib.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Precisely and the fact that some thought one would win and others favored the other, suggests there were conflicting opinions, which means people thought there would be no smashing. If done several years ago, the fight could've literally gone either way.

So much wrong here that I'll have to address each point one by one.

You can have people offer their opinions on who would win and also have those predictjng a Khabib win doing so by predicting a "smashing", to use your verb.

Secondly, as my previous example showed, the fact that people thought Justin would beat Khabib didn't change the fact that Khabib was a much superior fighter and had no bearing on the fight. The predicions of outsiders have no bearing on how a fight plays out.

Leaving all that aside, you're still digressing. The point of contention is that you claimed that Tony was a superior fighter and then claimed that Khabib is avoiding a man with 8 losses because he's afraid that man would end his undefeated streak.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Yes the tap machine with no ground game and the guy who came within a whisker of guillotining Khabib.

The guillotine that Khabib gave Justin to gas his arms before promptly choking him out after accomplishing what he wanted? In the same fight that Khabib dominated start to finish which resulted in Dustin crying about letting people down with his performance, after the fight?

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Yes the tap machine with no ground game and the guy who came within a whisker of guillotining Khabib.

To be fair, I remember many people saying McGregor would have a good chance as he's the much better striker and every round starts on the feet.

 

[Raoul]

So much wrong here that I'll have to address each point one by one.

You can have people offer their opinions on who would win and also have those predictjng a Khabib win doing so by predicting a "smashing", to use your verb.

Secondly, as my previous example showed, the fact that people thought Justin would beat Khabib didn't change the fact that Khabib was a much superior fighter and had no bearing on the fight. The predicions of outsiders have no bearing on how a fight plays out.

Leaving all that aside, you're still digressing. The point of contention is that you claimed that Tony was a superior fighter and then claimed that Khabib is avoiding a man with 8 losses because he's afraid that man would end his undefeated streak.

This claim can obviously be made after the fact since the two actually fought. Khabib and Tony never fought years ago when the fight was originally scheduled so you can't then make the claim on who would've been better, especially if you're using the rest of their careers (which due to age, were headed in opposite trajectories) as a guide.

 

[JPRouve]

Oliveira's win was one of my favorite. He is so sound from a technical standpoint, everything he does is on purpose and precise.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

This claim can obviously be made after the fact since the two actually fought. Khabib and Tony never fought years ago when the fight was originally scheduled so you can't then make the claim on who would've been better, especially if you're using the rest of their careers (which due to age, were headed in opposite trajectories) unfolded.

I'm giving my opinion, pal. As are you. The difference here is that all the evidence seems to point to the fact that I would be right and you'd be wrong.

What do the rest of their careers have to do with anything. You made that claim in January of 2020 as another poster pointed out. He dressed you down, you backtracked, and now you're attempting to tell me that you were referring to an earlier iteration of Tony when your post history shows that you're wrong.

 

[Raoul]

I'm giving my opinion, pal. As are you. The difference here is that all the evidence seems to point to the fact that I would be right and you'd be wrong.

What do the rest of their careers have to do with anything. You made that claim in January of 2020 as another poster pointed out. He dressed you down, you backtracked, and now you're attempting to tell me that you were referring to an earlier iteration of Tony when your post history shows that you're wrong.

This is simply incorrect. There is no evidence because they never fought, so everything you say is subjective and your opinion. If you think I'm backtracking, I'm not - I am actually doubling down on what I previously said - saying in early 2020 that the peak version of Ferguson who built his brand during the preceding 3 or 4 years would've been competitive with Khabib was not a controversial statement during that period of time. Tony came into 2020 riding on a 12 fight win streak in which he where he destroyed the faces of his opponents. That is the version of Tony who would've matched up very evenly with Khabib, who at that time had yet to raise his game to the next level in beating Dustin and Justin.

 

[Raoul]

Oliveira's win was one of my favorite. He is so sound from a technical standpoint, everything he does is on purpose and precise.

100%. He is proper MMA and exactly what the UFC needs at this time.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

This is simply incorrect. There is no evidence because they never fought, so everything you say is subjective and your opinion. If you think I'm backtracking, I'm not - I am actually doubling down on what I previously said - saying in early 2020 that the peak version of Ferguson who built his brand during the preceding 3 or 4 years would've been competitive with Khabib was not a controversial statement during that period of time. Tony came into 2020 riding on a 12 fight win streak where he destroyed the faces of his opponents. That is the version of Tony who would've matched up very evenly with Khabib, who at that time had yet to raise his game to the next level in beating Dustin and Justin.

In other words, you're contradicting your previous statement. You made the original claim that Ferguson was the superior fighter. You now claim that nobody can make a claim that any fighter is superior to another unless a fight between the two materialises to prove that statement.

Meanwhile, you've also decided to share the fact that your friends though Tony would beat Khabib. And that this (apparently valid now and points to Tony winning) means that the fight could have gone either way.

You conclude by again stating that "X version of Tony" (a man who struggles against grapplers) would have been competitive against the greatest grappler in the sport, after stating that nobody should be making such statements until we see the result of the fight between the two.

Anything else I've missed here? Because all you've done is contradicted yourself endlessly.

 

[Raoul]

In other words, you're contradicting your previous statement. You made the original claim that Ferguson was the superior fighter. You now claim that nobody can make a claim that any fighter is superior to another unless a fight between the two materialises to prove that statement.

Meanwhile, you've also decided to share the fact that your friends though Tony would beat Khabib. And that this (apparently valid now and points to Tony winning) means that the fight could have gone either way.

You conclude by again stating that "X version of Tony" (a man who struggles against grapplers) would have been competitive against the greatest grappler in the sport, after stating that nobody should be making such statements until we see the result of the fight between the two.

Anything else I've missed here? Because all you've done is contradicted yourself endlessly.

There are no contradictions in my argument, which I've laid out repeatedly. The main point of it all is that Tony v Khabib would've been a great fight at that time, which could've gone either way. Do you disagree ?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

There are no contradictions in my argument, which I've laid out repeatedly. The main point of it all is that Tony v Khabib would've been a great fight at that time, which could've gone either way. Do you disagree ?

I've actually laid out several of your contradictions in that very post. If you'd like to address them, that would be great. If you feel that you don't need to, fair enough as well. We can move on.

Do I disagree that Tony Vs Khabib would have been an even fight? No, I don't. If people thought the Gaethje beating was one-sided, a potential Ferguson one would have been worse in my opinion.

Ferguson has no take-down defense, and the greatest grappler in MMA would have spammed takedowns from the very start, which would have resulted in a somewhat boring, dominant victory, in my opinion. If you feel differently, that's fair enough.

 

[Raoul]

I've actually laid out several of your contradictions in that very post. If you'd like to address them, that would be great. If you feel that you don't need to, fair enough as well. We can move on.

I think we've beat this horse to death, so let's agree to disagree and move on.

Do I disagree that Tony Vs Khabib would have been an even fight? No, I don't. If people thought the Gaethje beating was one-sided, a potential Ferguson one would have been worse in my opinion.

Ferguson has no take-down defense, and the greatest grappler in MMA would have spammed takedowns from the very start, which would have resulted in a somewhat boring, dominant victory, in my opinion. If you feel differently, that's fair enough.

My only observation here is that the Gaethje fight happened at Khabib's absolute peak, whereas he would've fought Tony several years earlier (let's say around 2016) when he was still working his way up to the level of his final two fights. That Tony would've been quite competitive with that Khabib imo.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I think we've beat this horse to death, so let's agree to disagree and move on.



My only observation here is that the Gaethje fight happened at Khabib's absolute peak, whereas he would've fought Tony several years earlier (let's say around 2016) when he was still working his way up to the level of his final two fights. That Tony would've been quite competitive with that Khabib imo.

But that isn't what you posted. You posted in January 2020 that Tony Ferguson "is a better fighter" than Khabib. You can't decide to change the argument into a 2016 Khabib vs 2016 Tony argument. But since you asked, 2016 Khabib would have decimated 2016 Ferguson just about as badly as 2020 Khabib would have decimated 2020 Tony because Tony Ferguson wasn't any less incompetent at take-down defense in 2016 than he was in 2020.

It isn't as if he had all the tools to stuff takedowns that he suddenly forgot in May of 2020 which would indicate that he would have done any better against Khabib had he fought him prior to 2020.

Nothing about Tony Ferguson's skillset indicates that he would have been remotely competitive against Khabib, regardless of which version of Tony fought Khabib. He can't stop Khabib from spamming takedowns. He can't stop Khabib from ragdolling him. He can't grapple with him. The inevitable result would have been a boring drubbing because that's what everything we have seen from the two indicates we would have seen.

 

[Raoul]

But that isn't what you posted. You posted in January 2020 that Tony Ferguson "is a better fighter" than Khabib. You can't decide to change the argument into a 2016 Khabib vs 2016 Tony. But since you asked 2016 Khabib would have decimated 2016 Ferguson just about as badly as 2020 Khabib would have decimated 2020 Tony because Tony Ferguson wasn't any less incompetent at take-down defense in 2016 than he was in 2020.

It isn't as if he had all the tools to stuff takedowns that he suddenly forgot in May of 2020 which would indicate that he would have done any better against Khabib had he fought him prior to 2020.

Nothing about Tony Ferguson's skillset indicates that he would have been remotely competitive against Khabib, regardless of which version of Tony fought Khabib. He can't stop Khabib from spamming takedowns. He can't stop Khabib from ragdolling him. He can't grapple with him. The inevitable result would have been a boring drubbing because that's what everything we have seen from the two indicates we would have seen.

Correct - in early 2020 based on their respective body of work during the preceding few years during which the UFC were attempting to organize a fight.

On your analysis of Tony v Khabib - it would depend on when the fight happened. If it was 2015/2016, Khabib was simply not as developed at the time and it would've been a great fight. Had it happened more recently (and with the advantage of hindsight given Tony's recent demise) then Khabib would've had the advantage.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

He has a wrestling background but is viewed as a striker these days. Most of the time in his previous 5 or so fights since Woodley has been in standup.

yeah wrestling is grappling. Still clearly a far better grappler than Olivera. Then you could say Maia, Valentina, Dos Anjos, Kron, Dern, Jones could probably dig up more.

Also did you know that Olivera has tapped more than Connor who I see you referred to as the human tap machine. One being to Kahbib oh and someone else who is a better grappler Nate. Could put that down to being there for 10 years but two were consecutive fights.

For clarity Dustin never really had Kahbib in danger. He never had him in full guard. All Kahbib had to do was rotate to his left and then the Guilotine attempt was never a threat which is exactly what Kahbib did. Had Dustin been able to pull guard then maybe it would have been an issue. He did not however.