The McFred midfield duo

DWelbz19 said:
I looked at this a little while ago:

It’s a fundamental flaw to this side and crazy how it wasn’t rectified this summer.
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He hides too much then ? Whatever the reason it's an issue that wouldn't bother much if he offered some steel and defensive presence. You just wonder what's the point of playing him ?
 
kouroux said:
Does anyone have stats of passing between the two of them ? We have big problems progressing the ball up the pitch and that's why it makes Bruno drop back to attempt his crazy passes
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Even better would be stats comparing them to other midfield twos.

We’re in an era where clubs will be using some seriously^2 nuanced data to judge their players and based on how often they’re used together, so either we’re aeons behind even the proverbial ‘cannon-fodder’ in the data-analysis department or Ole is persisting with them a-la ‘there are some things the computer can’t see, Earl! It can’t see into your heart!’ or some combination of the two.

Or he really wanted a new midfielder but couldn’t get one.
 
manunited1919 said:
If Pep were our coach, VDB would be undroppable.
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The fact that VDB is not being integrated into the team is a sign of Ole and his coaching team's limitations.

I think today was a turning point for me. Ole is just not good enough. He's constantly relying on his players' individual talents.
 
morbidsaint said:
We have the worst central midfield in the league, or close to it. Matic is legit our best central midfielder.. no, seriously he still is. Of course, only if Pogba is playing out on the wing. We have Fred, McTominay, Matic, VDB.. Has to be BY FAR the worst midfield in at least the top half of the league.
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Some will say you are being over the top but I don't think you are that far off the truth.

The biggest embarrassment is the money we have spent to assemble such an average midfield. Fred, Matic, Van de Beek...that's over £100m wasted.

We have a bunch of players who, in a vacuum, might offer something. But for the role we want them playing are pretty much useless.

I'd say the majority of our midfield options actually struggle in a two man midfield. You look at Bayern with Kimmich and Goretzka and compare it to what we're putting out. Night and day.

The worst thing is, having p'd away all that money, we are not even in a position to change them. Even though we need to.
 
Having McTom next to VdB wouldn’t be bad I suspect but I also suspect we’ll never know unless all other midfielders and Lingards are unavailable.
 
Overall our midfield is fecking appaling.

Nevermind Fred and Mctominay for a second, who plays instead?

Matić? The man is shot.
VDB? Not a centre midfielder.
Mata?
Pogba?
Hanibal?
Garner?

For a club our size and history its a fecking disgrace not having at least 2 midfielders fighting for a place in the first 11.

Where are the promising kids? Why isn't any of them competing to jump in the first team?

Having Fred and Mctominay as your competition is as piss easy as it comes.
 
We have 2 midfield maestros who run away and never asks for the ball we have throw ins. Even when they're near, Shaw or Aaron by passes them and throw long to Bruno/Pogba/Ronaldo. No idea if they've practiced that really, been seeing that game after game
 
kouroux said:
He hides too much then ? Whatever the reason it's an issue that wouldn't bother much if he offered some steel and defensive presence. You just wonder what's the point of playing him ?
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He attempted 23 passes today, completing 19 of them in 82 minutes. Van de Beek, who played 45 mins against Young boys & the caf accused him of 'hiding' played 25 passes, completing 23 of them. McTominay hides so much he might aswell stay in the changing rooms. Pathetic.
 
Steven-UK said:
Neither Fred or Mctominay are good enough for Man United. Simple as that.
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But that’s the best we have at the moment. Unfortunately. I blame the club for not investing on a world class DM. We bought Varane, great. We got Ronaldo, super. We invested in Sancho, good vision. But DM? Nah, let’s wait. Mad.
 
MichaelRed said:
He attempted 23 passes today, completing 19 of them in 82 minutes. Van de Beek, who played 45 mins against Young boys & the caf accused him of 'hiding' played 25 passes, completing 23 of them. McTominay hides so much he might aswell stay in the changing rooms. Pathetic.
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That's so low. OMG
 
kouroux said:
That's so low. OMG
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He also only attempted 1 tackle with 0% success. He & Fred offer almost literally nothing. People can make excuses for Ole by stating the obvious that McTominay & Fred are barely Championship level but Ole is the one that picks them every game.
 
I would really love for someone to just do a pure ranking of the CMs in the league and see where McFred stand.

Off the top of my head its better than

Norwich
maybe Burnley?
Watford
Newcastle?
Brentford


So we'd be about 15th in the league.
 
Manager has no excuse. Spent £70m on a right winger, then decides he doesn’t want to use him. Why not buy a CM who would automatically start? So dumb we have about 8 players for 3 positions upfront. Plus a manager insistent on playing one of our CM on the wing, and not using another one at all. Ole is 100% to blame for this situation.
 
Instead of McFred, we really need a Kante, Fernandinho or Fabinho. It’s so simple. We will have an extra spot for an attacking midfielder. Come on, glazers. 100m for the weakest part of our team will be a great investment.
 
Prime Kante doesn't change that result today.....
 
Thought Fred improved in the second half - still lacking for a club this size mind. Scott though, really poor performance. Tends to look busy doing nothing - and it's a common occurrence. Has the occasional brilliant game, but aside from to that, he leaves a lot to be desired.
 
Mibabalou said:
I would really love for someone to just do a pure ranking of the CMs in the league and see where McFred stand.

Off the top of my head its better than

Norwich
maybe Burnley?
Watford
Newcastle?
Brentford


So we'd be about 15th in the league.
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How we finish 3rd or 2nd with 10 players?
 
Hate the sight of them. They offer nothing!

Starting two limited, defensive midfielders who offer us nothing going forward, yet the opposition get as many chances as they want against us.
 
McTominay was invisible today. He couldn't have touched the ball more than 15 times in the first half. Atrocious performance. Our fans hate Fred, but what he does do is show for the ball and doesn't hide. Still Ole's fault. He's had two summers to buy a starting midfielder and has chosen not to do so. Spent £70m on players last summer that he doesn't use and bought Sancho this summer.

Our fans thinking a midfielder is going to make a massive change to this team are deluding themselves, though. Our management are getting nowhere near the max out of the players that we have. We should be seeing way better than this.
 
Mibabalou said:
I would really love for someone to just do a pure ranking of the CMs in the league and see where McFred stand.

Off the top of my head its better than

Norwich
maybe Burnley?
Watford
Newcastle?
Brentford


So we'd be about 15th in the league.
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I made this thread mid-way through last season where I compared the stats of a bunch of the better midfielders in the league: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/midfield-creativity-stats-and-comparisons.460870/

I did start to update it at the end of the season but never got around to finishing it. Fred had dropped a bit as expected since he did struggle a bit in the second half of the season, but statistically he was still far better than most would expect. McTominay was still average (or worse) at pretty much everything.
 
MadDogg said:
I made this thread mid-way through last season where I compared the stats of a bunch of the better midfielders in the league: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/midfield-creativity-stats-and-comparisons.460870/

I did start to update it at the end of the season but never got around to finishing it. Fred had dropped a bit as expected since he did struggle a bit in the second half of the season, but statistically he was still far better than most would expect. McTominay was still average (or worse) at pretty much everything.
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But stats don't mattter (unless they prove Fred is shit).....
 
Fred is bang average, but I actually think McTominay could be worse. For all Fred's limitations, at least he doesn't go missing for the majority of games, and actually tries to be positive in passing movement. McTominay is very limited passing wise, positionally not good, and can't really tackle. So what does he bring to the team apart from a big stature?
 
JoaquinJoaquin said:
Fred is bang average, but I actually think McTominay could be worse. For all Fred's limitations, at least he doesn't go missing for the majority of games, and actually tries to be positive in passing movement. McTominay is very limited passing wise, positionally not good, and can't really tackle. So what does he bring to the team apart from a big stature?
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He is a youth product, so gets the priviledge. He will be here in his 30s
 
MadDogg said:
I made this thread mid-way through last season where I compared the stats of a bunch of the better midfielders in the league: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/midfield-creativity-stats-and-comparisons.460870/

I did start to update it at the end of the season but never got around to finishing it. Fred had dropped a bit as expected since he did struggle a bit in the second half of the season, but statistically he was still far better than most would expect. McTominay was still average (or worse) at pretty much everything.
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McTominay is a nothing player and the stats show it. He would never be anywhere near this club if he didn't come out of the academy. The main problem with Fred is that his poor games are really, really bad. In an ideal world, both would be replaced with consistently good players.
 
Let's please try to give VDB a consistent run of games. Maybe that'll help in keeping possession and some progressive passing from midfield
 
Litch said:
How we finish 3rd or 2nd with 10 players?
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Im saying just in terms of Central midfield in the league where would McFred be.

I am standing by around 15th place. I listed the teams I felt they were better than.

MadDogg said:
I made this thread mid-way through last season where I compared the stats of a bunch of the better midfielders in the league: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/midfield-creativity-stats-and-comparisons.460870/

I did start to update it at the end of the season but never got around to finishing it. Fred had dropped a bit as expected since he did struggle a bit in the second half of the season, but statistically he was still far better than most would expect. McTominay was still average (or worse) at pretty much everything.
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Its not even really the elite CMs in the league anymore.

Wolves with Neves and Moutino is better
Southampton with Romelu and JWP
Everton with Alan and Doucore
 
They are two very ordinary players that run around a lot, I doubt they’d significantly improve more than 3 or 4 teams in the league either collectively or individually. It’s negligent and/or incompetent that we’ve gone into a season with these two as first choice.
 
zenith said:
Let's please try to give VDB a consistent run of games. Maybe that'll help in keeping possession and some progressive passing from midfield
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If you see our next dozen fixtures then that will be the equivalent of throwing him under the bus.
 
noodlehair said:
They were poor today. The problem is they are the only duo we have that works, and it only works when both are playing well, and at the moment neither is.

I would give VDB more of a chance but that will have its own problems. We've already seen what happens if you play Pogba or Matic in there...it just makes things worse.

The solution was to prioritise signing a midfielder in the summer but instead we signed Sancho so he could sit on the bench.
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Yes. They were poor today because a team pressed us. When not pressed too much like vs WH in the 1st half they can look good.

I don't think Ole has anything to lose at this point in trying McT and VDB. Yes, I left Fred off as I'm really tired of his poor first touches and lack of vision. I just watched Chelsea v MC and both have such good center DMs in Jorghino and Rodrigo. If only we had someone of that quality.
 
Galactic said:
Instead of McFred, we really need a Kante, Fernandinho or Fabinho. It’s so simple. We will have an extra spot for an attacking midfielder. Come on, glazers. 100m for the weakest part of our team will be a great investment.
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Kante is a different type of player to Fernandinho and Fabinho. It's also worth noting that all his best seasons have come next to another midfielder who does a lot of defensive work (Drinkwater, Matic and Jorginho).

I would say Fred is a similar type of player to Kante (although obviously not as good) and should be playing that same role. He does have a similar role when the opposition have the ball, but when we have the ball ourselves he ends up having to play more as the playmaker since he's normally next to McTominay. Fred isn't actually good at being a playmaker, but compared to McTominay he looks like Paul Scholes.
 
I like McT, but he's so inconsistent. Some games he is on it and looks solid, and other days his touch is heavy and everything is overhit. There's never any middleground with him. If he could consistently be at his top level, he'd be a valuable player for us. There's still time for him.

Fred is just awful all of the time. He was a significant downgrade on Herrera, who was just about above average at best himself. Fred's touch is woeful, and sometimes he doesn't even have a first touch as the ball just goes through his feet. Happens just about every game. Happened twice today. Comedy player. What are his ball-winning/tackling stats even like? It feels like all his charging around rarely even results in winning the ball back. He occasionally gets in a tussle where it looks like he's going to win the ball, and then somehow still doesn't. He is infuriating to watch, and I don't think there are many teams in the league where he starts.
 
Mibabalou said:
Im saying just in terms of Central midfield in the league where would McFred be.

I am standing by around 15th place. I listed the teams I felt they were better than.



Its not even really the elite CMs in the league anymore.

Wolves with Neves and Moutino is better
Southampton with Romelu and JWP
Everton with Alan and Doucore
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As nice and easy as it is to say 'McFred', they are two very different players. They should be compared individually to other individual players instead of being bundled together. Fred has had a disappointing 2021, but in the 18 months before that he was comfortably better than most (if not all) of the players you named there. McTominay on the other hand...

Like I said though, Fred has struggled a bit since January. Some very good games, some very bad games, a lot of average games. He's shown enough previously that I still hope that he'll come good (and a proper partner should be a huge help there), but an argument could be had for the players you named in that time.
 
It was glaringly obvious to me today that Fred, McTominay and Wan Bissaka just aren't good enough for a successful United team! They are awful when on the ball, take too long to bring it under control and make a pass. By the time our attackers get the ball, the opposition defenders are invariably back in position and organised. Mc Fred aren't good defensively either, so we have sacrificed a creative player to accommodate one of them. Wan Bissaka is a good tackler, but offers nothing offensively.

Until we buy a decent defensive midfielder, we need to start picking midfielders who can actually play. That way we should score more goals, even if we concede some (which we already do now).

Starting eleven to look like this:
De Gea
Dalot Varane Maguire Shaw
Van de Beek Pogba
Sancho Fernandes Greenwood
Ronaldo
 
MadDogg said:
Kante is a different type of player to Fernandinho and Fabinho. It's also worth noting that all his best seasons have come next to another midfielder who does a lot of defensive work (Drinkwater, Matic and Jorginho).

I would say Fred is a similar type of player to Kante (although obviously not as good) and should be playing that same role. He does have a similar role when the opposition have the ball, but when we have the ball ourselves he ends up having to play more as the playmaker since he's normally next to McTominay. Fred isn't actually good at being a playmaker, but compared to McTominay he looks like Paul Scholes.
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Yes. Jorginho too.

But kante is a player I like a lot. His off the ball and reading of the game are immaculate most of the time. Very rarely lose possession too. He will upgrade our midfield in an instant;
 
McFred is probably one of the worst ever passer of ball, with worst ever build up play I've ever seen from any midfield. Maybe the poor build up play has to do with coaching too. But they are definitely one of the worst passer of ball I've ever seen.
 
Any game that we aspire to be on the front foot and exert our influence on the opposition, this pairing is a massive fail. They can't control a game for shite.

They are only good to restrict the better opposition from playing their normal game.

The problem is, our team is so used to playing with the two shielding players than the moment we drop one for Pogba, massive gaps appear in the defence even with shite opposition.
 
How both are starting ahead of Paul Pogba in midfield is mind boggling.

Sancho not starting on the wing ahead of Paul Pogba is also mind boggling.

We need a new manager who can use this almost complete squad better than Ole.
 
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