Exactly. One less passing option in a game we were struggling to pass through their press in the last 5 minutes.
Horrendous sub
The Make A Fecking Sub Ole Thread
- Thread starter TwoSheds
- Start date
Horrendous sub
He is complete bottler. You don't lose all those semis and games like this just being "unlucky".
What a daft substitution. I do not know who advises him in these things. Tuabzabe is not the one you need to put on in these situations. We have now bottled it of course. For some reason he is very good in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Thought so too. Gave the ref the opportunity to add more time than the 4 minutes. And of all people Ole had to bring in someone on low confidence and form. Just ridiculous.
he doesn’t have an effective plan B. Hinders himself and the most of our results.
fecked away a few semi finals and basically killed off our “title run” as quick as it begun.
game management, highlights the difference between a good manager and a title winning one. Ole fails in this department this far.
The change at the end really had me shaking my head. Get Matic & Donny on & keep the ball. Bringing on Tuanzebe just told me his intention was to sit back & hope they don’t score.
We’re getting a bit Spursey & I don’t like it.
Just throw on Matic and do a proper shithouse sub in future
It's amazing how big a flaw this is in his game management. Can't question the Fred for Pogba sub, because I think that makes sense and it was a necessity due to an injury. But...Tuanzebe for Greenwood is amazing, even more so considering the events that happened shortly afterwards, considering that Greenwood was having quite a decent game and just how late into the game it was when the sub was made. It was the definition of a pointless sub and it backfired. He's clearly not comfortable in this aspect of his management and it shows.
His subs management are absolutely appalling. While I agree with others that the whole match isn't on him, but mostly on De Gea, defensive and Rashford, Ole's subs are awful more times than not and he struggles to get their timing right in most big games.
He's managing himself out of a title race (although we weren't really in one tbf, we're too crap at the back), and no way we win the Europa League IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if we lost to Real Sociedad. Is top four (maybe) good enough? Maybe for now, but if that's his ceiling, which I think it is, you should thank him for his improvements for the club and send him on his way.
Bad call to bring on Tuanzebe and go to 5 at the back, it just invited pressure when we were in control before the sub.
Same thing happened against Southampton at home last season.
Why not like-for-like James on for Greenwood and keep the shape? Greenwood was knackered towards the end and did need to be replaced. James’ energy would’ve helped see us over the line.
Same thing happened against Southampton at home last season.
Why not like-for-like James on for Greenwood and keep the shape? Greenwood was knackered towards the end and did need to be replaced. James’ energy would’ve helped see us over the line.
I actually feel sorry for Tuanzebe. I think Ole's thinking he'd bring him on, we see the game out and Tuanzebe gets some kind of confidence boost for playing a part in it.
But it was totally the wrong thing to do tactically. You're removing AWB's passing option by taking Greenwood out and putting a centre back in. Van De Beek or Matic could've been the better option. Keep ball and see out the game.
But it was totally the wrong thing to do tactically. You're removing AWB's passing option by taking Greenwood out and putting a centre back in. Van De Beek or Matic could've been the better option. Keep ball and see out the game.
Just thinking. If he didn't make a sub, game would be over when DDG had free kick. It was 94.00 then. Ole just can't do it right, isn't he?
Not sure why we changed our defensive formation for the last few minutes. I could probably understand if Axel came on to help shore up the midfield (although obviously Matic would be better at that), but going into the defence was just asking for trouble.
Actually now that I think about it I wonder if Axel being homegrown had anything to do with it, being on the anniversary of Munich. I had a feeling Ole would start with as many of the homegrown players as possible (McTominay, Rashford, Greenwood and arguably Pogba), and Axel coming on does play into that as well.
Actually now that I think about it I wonder if Axel being homegrown had anything to do with it, being on the anniversary of Munich. I had a feeling Ole would start with as many of the homegrown players as possible (McTominay, Rashford, Greenwood and arguably Pogba), and Axel coming on does play into that as well.
Cavani was knackered by the 80 minute after running his socks off. Should have brought on fresh legs then. Why wait till injury time to bring on somebody when you know the ref will just add time to compensate for the substitution...
I don’t think he can read the game. You never see him spot an opportunity and make an ad-hoc tactical adjustment. You never see him berate a player who looks disinterested. He never encourages from the touch line. He’s an observer. Rarely ever is he proactive and seldom are his reactive changes not baffling.
The reason why he never changes anything is because he never sees anything. He got this reputation as a player who could observe the game from the bench to make the best impact as a sub. But feck me he’s either lost that ability or it doesn’t work for managers because if the guy decided to go and have a lie down during our matches close to absolutely nothing would be any different in 99% of them.
Honest question, but which departments is he thriving in?
In game management has been poor.
Defensive organisation has been poor.
Style of play?
Tactically?
Attacking play?
Signings?
He does well to remain calm and remain respectful whilst representing the club (only really a thing in comparison with Jose), though perhaps sometimes too calm ie sat on the bench for 90 minutes.
I agree. It's very easy for opposition managers to make effective mid game changes against us, and we almost never do the same back. If the starting team cant be motivated to win (he is good at that), we have no hope. Subs and tactical changes are usually wrong and/or too late.
What an awful take. Everton were piling long balls and throws into the box, and Maguire/Lindelof were looking a bit dodgy all game. If we didn't throw another centre half (with the bonus of having pace) on to see out the last couple of minutes we'd be given the manager pelters about not making subs. Greenwood had gave the ball away in a bad position a couple of minutes previously and was looking fatigued. To suggest Tuanzebe only came on because of the Munich anniversary is ridiculous. Surely you don't actually believe that
I don’t think reading the game is very difficult for any manager. It’s most likely about something else.
We were clearly the better team against one of the best teams this season. Unfortunately we missed three points in the last second. Some people always introduce easy explanations based on subs and changes done close in time to decisive moments. Subs gets to much focus.
Sometimes it’s more about luck and not luck. Everything doesn’t need to happen because a reason other than that.
Last edited:
Axel ahead of Matic is the debate. Making a change to make us more solid was definitely fair enough, but the instant I saw that we'd changed our defensive formation I knew it was asking for trouble. Having Matic come on to sit in front of the defence made much more sense. If they are putting lots of long balls and throws into the box it makes that argument even stronger as Axel is quite poor in the air.
I won't go so far as to say that I believe Ole was trying to pay his respects to Munich by favouring homegrown players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.
There's nothing stupid about saying subs management has been awful because it has been really the case for a long time now. Dropping points today isn't his whole fault in grand scheme of things but his subs and their timing don't help, period. He needs to improve them.
The irony is that he was one of the managers calling for the change back to the 5 subs rule that he had during Project Restart yet we are playing games just as regularly now as was the case then and he very rarely uses all his subs
You maybe right, but I don’t think it’s about the ability to read the game, and I think sub-management gets to much focus on supporter forums.
If his subs mostly are wrong it’s probably more about squad depth.
Often the subs get better score than starters (player ratings), but still someone blame the subs because we afterward receive a goal against by incident.
?? Substitutions are literally made based on the back of a reading of the game. You assess what's going on, the momentum of the game, performance of the team, individuals, and opposition and make a judgement call using who you have available that can add to the collective effort. If anything, subs that are brought on to see a game out rarely get recognition as they're brought on to do the unsexy job of holding the shape, bringing a sense of calm and solidity to the team and being a cool head. It's an important part of the game and it was literally what Ole was famous for during his playing career. For whatever reason he isn't able to replicate that effectiveness as a manager and it's a weakness of his. Last night was crying out for an earlier change of either VdB or Matic. Tuanzebe was suicidal.
Off course not, but was our team a favourite to get to finals last year, or was United the unquestionably favourite to bring home a trophy last year? My answer is no.
I think our stop at semi-finals represented our standard and expectations quite well, especially if we had to “guess” beforehand.
Saying Ole is a bottler in this regard is not fair and correct. Results are a result of the whole team. To put the blame only on one factor (players or coach) is often a to easy conclusion.
I love how everyone is so clever here after the fact. Ole knew that their only hope was a hail mary into the box, and if that were the case, in theory Tuanzebe should have been more helpful than Greenwood. It was unfortunate that he happened to give away the foul to give them that chance. Then, the fact that we were unable to defend it is just embarrassing.
This is not on Ole. We conceded 3 wank goals and that is not his fault. What is his problem will be what to do with Maguire and De Gea in the future because they are costing us a lot of points.
This is not on Ole. We conceded 3 wank goals and that is not his fault. What is his problem will be what to do with Maguire and De Gea in the future because they are costing us a lot of points.
It isn’t just subs though, he’s passive for the entire game. Other things you’d expect a manager to do tactically or motivationally or in any other way to manage or influence matters during game - he does NONE of them.
Beyond the pre-match and half-time team talks his impact on the game almost doesn’t exist. We regularly see opposition managers barking instructions against us and making tactical adjustments in real time in order to exploit opportunities based on what’s happening in the game.
We get none of that from Ole.
The biggest tactical switch we get is asking Rashford to go from the left side to the right side and back to the left side. That’s it. Other than making questionable subs when the game is in is dying moments that’s the limit of his influence.
I don’t know if it’s because he lacks confidence in his own abilities or if he just lacks the ability, it’s becoming a massive flaw in his management
Beyond the pre-match and half-time team talks his impact on the game almost doesn’t exist. We regularly see opposition managers barking instructions against us and making tactical adjustments in real time in order to exploit opportunities based on what’s happening in the game.
We get none of that from Ole.
The biggest tactical switch we get is asking Rashford to go from the left side to the right side and back to the left side. That’s it. Other than making questionable subs when the game is in is dying moments that’s the limit of his influence.
I don’t know if it’s because he lacks confidence in his own abilities or if he just lacks the ability, it’s becoming a massive flaw in his management
We do not completely disagree. My point is that “reading the game” and inefficient subs not have to correlate all the time.
Often (not alway) I agree with the subs at first look, because I understand what Ole wants to achieve. They make sense. That’s what “reading the game” is about. If the sub does a blunder or doesn’t have a good day at work, the sub wasn’t a success in retrospect. In this example it’s wrong to criticise Ole’s ability to read the game.
Last edited:
Sorry for maybe being to active or engaged right now
I’ve said it before. A lot of science conclude: managers barking and in-game instructions are not very efficient. Actually the opposite is considered as a greater benefit.
Even though some of the great managers are very charismatic and express themselves a lot on the sideline, their success isn’t necessarily a result of their intensity on the sideline. I don’t say their personality and enthusiasm on the sideline doesn’t reflect strengths in other managerial aspects. It likely is a strength in some other way.
In retrospect? It doesn't take a footballing genius to figure out that throwing on an out of form, low on confidence, and inexperienced center-back in to create a ridiculously deep back 5 for the last 2 minutes of a game is a risky option. I said to my friends we need to put Van de Beek and/or Matic on for Rashford and/or Greenwood and I've seen hundreds of other people on here saying that they wanted the same. Using your bench/subs effectively is all about an ability to read the game so I'm not really sure what the point you're making is.
The thread we're discussing this in might be a bit of a clue, but it's somewhat of a pattern with Ole. Have a read through this thread to get an idea of what people are talking about.
Sorry for maybe being to active or engaged right now
I’ve said it before. A lot of science conclude: managers barking and in-game instructions are not very efficient. Actually the opposite is considered as a greater benefit.
Even though some of the great managers are very charismatic and express themselves a lot on the sideline, their success isn’t necessarily a result of their intensity on the sideline. I don’t say their personality and enthusiasm on the sideline doesn’t reflect strengths in other managerial aspects. It likely is a strength in some other way.
I remember Gary Neville saying something like players always seeing Sir Alex at the Conner of their eye when playing, always feeling his presence, not wanting to look his way when players missed a pass etc. Ole
just sits and looks at the monitor when it sometime requires him to tell his players to move the ball quicker, you can't just wait for half time. His passiveness IMO is reflected in the way we play, especially how slow we tend to start games.
I’m confident Ole, Carrick, Mc Kenna, Phelan are more footballing genius than us, but it sounds like you are of the opposite opinion. You make everything sounds so easy
Changing the shape was more the issue for me and coupled with Axel's obvious lack of confidence at present, bringing him on was asking for trouble.
The guy must be absolutely shot after last night.
After Leicester and now Everton, I cannot comprehend Ole making this same mistake again (can I?!).
The guy must be absolutely shot after last night.
After Leicester and now Everton, I cannot comprehend Ole making this same mistake again (can I?!).
Ah, there we have it. So everyone involved in professional football is infallible and their decisions are above discussion by the peons. A load of nonsense.
It was another time and a different generation players. The standard of play has increased; the players are on a higher level in general. The “new” generation players don’t necessarily respond to “SAF-coaching” the same way as the Neville-generation. It’s pretty much the same talking about the new generation, school and work.
Ole said it during his time in Molde. First team players today are more like junior players during his time; more sensitive, easier to break down, needs to be followed up more closely, expect to be seen and involved more and don’t respond to fear or critic the same way as before.
I don't think bringing Axel in was a bad call in itself at all. Ran down the clock a bit more, was supposed to shore up the defence a bit more with a couple of minutes to go, and should have sent the message to competent footballers that we are deciding to hold on to the lead (as if he needed to!). There's no way Ole could have predicted the comical play that manifested on that right side after that.
It was a logical thing to do. My bigger concern was how we managed to conceded from a free kick more or less from the halfway line
It was a logical thing to do. My bigger concern was how we managed to conceded from a free kick more or less from the halfway line
Bringing on Axel in itself was not the worst decision, though you could argue he's been in poor form recently.
However, what it did to our shape for the few minutes he came on for was the main problem. No idea why he took off Greenwood. Would probably have been better taking off either Bruno or Cavani, but they were needed up front.
But...
Carrick... what’s he done as a coach? Sat through 2 defensive set ups which have leaked goals.
Mckenna... the same. Atleast he has u18’s playing good football. But u18’s and first team is a different level and he’s showing nothing so far.
Phelan... He wasn’t Queiroz or Muleensteen (However you spell his name) and we all remember Hull City.
So maybe I don’t have confidence like you. It’s not like we scouting these requirements well except McKenna.
Sensitive to instructions on the touch line? You mean they would be sensitive to being told to be more urgent in their play? Doesn't seem to bother city and Liverpool players when their managers are on the touchline urging their players on.
Its not about hair dryers here, a show of passion and urgency from the manager helps, Bruno's influence on the team hasn't just been because of his ability with the ball, its also his attitude, his demeanor rubs off. There's a reason players want fans back, sometimes they do need to be urged on, fans make their voices heard when the standards drop, players require feedback when they are slacking, which am is the the manger's job, more so now without fans in the stadiums.
Ole's attitude for me isn't right, when a manager laughs off the suggestion that Man united should be tittle contenders after dropping points the way we did sends the wrong message.