Nah, feck Abby
Gaming The Last of Us Part II (PS4)
- Thread starter Neelu
- Start date
All things considered Abby's murder was unnecessarily dragged out and far worse than anything Ellie did in game. Ellie killed people and became a shocking terribly written character like every other character bar Lev and Yara in the game but she never dragged anything out for the sake of enjoyment. Its a massive factor in both characters. Early game Abby before she got all revengy was likable but she turned into a proper piece of shit. Ellie didn't slowly murder someone helpless on the ground to make herself feel good, that's how they aren't even comparable even though Ellie also comes off as a piece of shit.
By trying to be all shocking and push boundaries ND made Abby instantly unredeemable. Had she just killed Joel no one would have found her as bad but the fact she dragged it out for zero purpose other than she wanted to drag it out is huge. For all the murder Ellie commits to get to Abby and as cold blooded as she is, she doesn't once take enjoyment in it or do it because it makes her feel good. Even when she has Abby at the end, she doesn't try to drag it out, even gives her a fair chance.
As bad and all as the game tried to portray Ellie, she had no intention of killing Owen, Mel or the girl in the hospital who all died from Walking Dead level writing, she gave them every chance to talk. You can even see how fecked up Ellie is after torturing the girl in the hospital to talk and after killing Mel. Abby had little discomfort about slowly beating a helpless person to a pulp on the ground, or with murdering a pregnant woman or with screwing Owen behind Mels back which probably got them both killed.
I really don't think her and Ellie are remotely comparable and by the end of the game Ellie is a complete piece of shit. Abby is just on a different level.
I think you really missed the whole point of the way the story was written and how the characters were portrayed. Its goone whoosh completely over your head.
I've played the game start to finish twice and pretty sure I've missed nothing. I saw twice how the story was written... poorly and the characters were portrayed.. unlikable idiots. Lev, Yara and actually Manny aside.
Owen did
I really don't see how the game went out of its way to portray certain characters as terrible. That's what you make of it, I didn't get that. Flawed characters in a horrible world who are driven to do horrible things, that's what I see.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Almost all characters felt grey living in a horrible world driven to do horrible things and looking terrible only from other character's perspectives i.e. Joel from Abby's, Abby from Ellie's.
edit: Ignore my comment, I read yours completely wrong.
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Think it was in response to padr and what he thinks of Abby in general
I agree with @padr81
Ellie gets an unfair rep when I don’t think her actions were worse than Abby’s.
Ellie gets an unfair rep when I don’t think her actions were worse than Abby’s.
I read that comment so wrong.I don't think the game went out of its way to create Abby as some white Knight but it did cheesily villain up Ellie more through hamfistedness then intent. What I think is the game went out of its way to make Abby a decent person with flaws but couldn't pull it off because she was so cold blooded in the first place.
For me there's no redeeming someone who beats a helpless captive (who has just saved her life) continuously with a gold club when a simple bullet would have sufficed for no purpose other than emotion.
But also the game did some really cheesy things to darken Ellie... like having you look through the eyes of one of her victims while requiring you to push buttons to watch your own murder.. lots of little emotional manipulation. Imagine for a second the Joel scene and you have to play as Abby committing the murder whilst looking through Joel or even Ellies eyes?
The plot points for the characters were decent they were just carried out so over the top and hamfisted that its hard to find any of the characters redeemable, Abby in particular.
The "every villain is the hero of their own story" (Ellie) or more appropriately in this case every hero is someone else's villain (Joel to Abby, Abby to Ellie) doesn't work when the kick the dog scene is too dark.
Part of the reason the Joel killing Abby's dad was so understandable was the fact he refused to hand her over, he also chose to let the other doctors live (unless the player got trigger happy). Joels was grey, had he shot the doctor in the knee and beat him for 30 minutes for shits and giggles the ending would have felt much more like we were the bad guy. Joels choice was morally grey but selfish, you left the game thinking did he make the right choice?
Abby's could have been but instead it was black and I for one left the game thinking... she didn't have a dilemma at all, maybe minor guilt for what she did from a few lines to Lev. She made a horrid choice (in the manner of execution if not what it accomplished).
I should add I didn't hate the game totally, just thought it was hamfisted in how they applied the plot points and the characters suffered as a result.
I'm sorry but as far as Abby knows; Joel was given sanctuary and then inexplicably massacred an entire building of her people and then kidnapped a little girl, basically dooming humanity. Oh, yeah, and he murdered her father as well.
You're putting way too much emphasis on how Abby tortured Joel. But, even so, he deserved it. He was a piece of shit.
They're all pieces of shit. Except maybe Jesse, I don't know. Maybe he liked to drown kittens in his spare time?
Aren't most people in games just big pieces of shit?
For example, Lara croft and Nathan Drake just kill loads of people while stealing artifacts.
For example, Lara croft and Nathan Drake just kill loads of people while stealing artifacts.
@Bojan11 is a piece of shit.
Having not played the first game yet, this is how I saw it when playing through both characters. I saw it from both perspectives especially after playing with Abby. I dont see it as a villian who is unreedamble but they are trying anyway. I see it as a human who felt she was justified.
I just don't agree with the idea that they made Ellie some sort of villain. The scene you are referring to is dark and looks evil in isolation, but the way she then returns to the theater and looks completely broken, how she delivers that "I made her talk" line to Dina. It doesn't add up to ND supposedly portraying Ellie as a villain. It had the opposite effect on me, with the game showing Ellie still had her humanity and how the violence impacted her. I mean, compare that to Joel interrogating and murdering those two guys to find Ellie in the first game.
@BenitoSTARR do something about this. Another personal attack by Elvis, so quit fannying about and sort him out.
Yeah, I think the characters are way more well written than some give them credit for, and certainly not "idiots".
What I think ND did well, was that they portrayed the characters in such a way that none of them were either redeemable or irredeemable. I didn't see it as black and white as that. I'm not saying the writing was 100% flawless because nearly nothing is, but I think they did a good job in telling a revenge tale in a way that felt fairly natural to the characters in it.
I found Abby an interesting character, personally. And again, for me, it wasn't about whether she redeemed herself or anything like that. I'm not even sure that was the point of it, to be honest. The only question I ever have is if this character is interesting and can I see things from their perspective. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with her, but can I understand WHY she would do something. In terms of killing Joel, I can definitely understand why she would do it. Now, how she did it was obviously extreme and psychopathic. But I guess this is something that she's been stewing on for years. It has consumed her every thought and made her bitter and angry to the point where nothing else matters. I'm not excusing her torturing him to death, but just trying to get into her psyche. You could see how scared she was at that moment, even when he's been incapacitated thanks to a shotgun to the leg.
And what I did like about that scene, and this comes down to the acting I suppose, but at no point did she take any glee or satisfaction from it. I think the futility of it all was there to see in her reaction. She was still as scared and as angry as she always has been. This didn't change that, and in fact, it just made things even worse.
What I think ND did well, was that they portrayed the characters in such a way that none of them were either redeemable or irredeemable. I didn't see it as black and white as that. I'm not saying the writing was 100% flawless because nearly nothing is, but I think they did a good job in telling a revenge tale in a way that felt fairly natural to the characters in it.
I found Abby an interesting character, personally. And again, for me, it wasn't about whether she redeemed herself or anything like that. I'm not even sure that was the point of it, to be honest. The only question I ever have is if this character is interesting and can I see things from their perspective. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with her, but can I understand WHY she would do something. In terms of killing Joel, I can definitely understand why she would do it. Now, how she did it was obviously extreme and psychopathic. But I guess this is something that she's been stewing on for years. It has consumed her every thought and made her bitter and angry to the point where nothing else matters. I'm not excusing her torturing him to death, but just trying to get into her psyche. You could see how scared she was at that moment, even when he's been incapacitated thanks to a shotgun to the leg.
And what I did like about that scene, and this comes down to the acting I suppose, but at no point did she take any glee or satisfaction from it. I think the futility of it all was there to see in her reaction. She was still as scared and as angry as she always has been. This didn't change that, and in fact, it just made things even worse.
It kinda lent itself well to the theme of the story being that getting revenge won’t make you feel better and if anything makes it worse.
Yeah, and I think it's something they did really well in the main. The question of whether a certain character is redeemable or irredeemable didn't really come into it for me. Again, I'm not entirely sure that was the point. At least for me, anyway. Opinions may differ.
Learning months after finishing the game that you can hold a normal infected and feed it to a clicker
Jheez
Jheez
I'd agree with that, that was kinda my op, Ellie shows more regret for her actions than Abby (who while she shows regret is much more subtle). Joel like Abby is pretty cold blooded by comparison.
You are misunderstanding. There is way too much emphasis on it and more through ND stupidity than any evil intent. Abby is the only person in the series who slowly tortured someone for no reason other than self gratification. That was my original point. Joel was a selfish pos, Ellie is a selfish pos, but neither performed or dragged out a murder to make themselves feel good. My original point is because of the way Abby handled taking out Joel (who did deserve his death) then she become unredeemable. The manner she took Joel out is important, because a, he was just after saving her life and b, she had no purpose to drag it out especially knowing people would come looking and that there was a pregnant woman in her group.
Take Joel shooting Marlene or even Tess brutal killing of Robert. Cool blooded as hell but even though Tess killing was done for self satisfaction it was literally put him out of his misery and don't enjoy it.
I'll completely disagree and I got killed for saying Walking Dead level writing on here but to me it really is. Everything either happens by accident or by a character doing something silly and out of personality, or a character just being stupid (like Owen and his pregnant wife staying on a revenge mission after a man who eradicated the Firefly's single handedly, or Dina and her pregnancy, keeping it to herself while in hostile territory. I get what they tried and I'm delighted some people enjoyed, its one game I really wish I could get out of it what other people do but I can't.
Abby is indeed an interesting character.. She is also despite being a massive pos one character who is handed really consistently throughout the game bar a moment or two. The bolded part I don't get, I understand the why of what she did but not the how she accomplished it. The fact she was so willing to slit a pregnant womans throat, again consistent but makes her hard to empathise with.
Yeah, I mean that's fine. Clearly your no fan of the game (or not a big fan, at least), and that's all good but I just simply disagree with pretty much everything you've said about it
I don't agree that's ND are stupid, or it's Walking Dead levels of writing, or it makes no sense, etc. I find all that very hyperbolic, personally. It's the same as when people said it was Game of Thrones season 8 bad. Come on. It's just so over the top and almost performative. What you find poorly written or characters not being consistent, I just don't agree with that. Most of the things you seemingly have a problem with, I never have done. I think the vast majority of it (apart from one or two things) makes sense and IS consistent.
As for the bold part, not sure what's not to get. I admitted that HOW she went about it was quite psychopathic and over the top, but that's the frame of mind she was in, I guess. I can see that turning people off, though. But I don't agree that she did it with a sense of gratification. Granted, she probably went into it for that, but she certainly didn't get gratification during or after, I don't think. I'll give another shout-out to the game here for not lingering on it, either. I didn't find that bit gratuitous at all.
As for empathizing with her, we're just coming at it from a different point of view, I guess. As I said in my previous comment, empathizing with her or finding her redeemable/irredeemable, etc., wasn't the point for me. As long as characters are consistent and interesting, and I can understand where they are coming from - even if I don't agree with them - that's all I want. And I think ND did a good job on all that (again, apart from one or two moments). If she DID slit Dina's throat, then for me that would be a step too far and I don't think that would have been consistent with her, to be honest.
I don't think the game is flawless or anything. There are problems with it, but I will always give it credit for ambition and having the balls to do some of the stuff they did (god knows the AAA game industry needs it), and for the most part, I think they did a great job.
It is stupidity, but it is not illogical. Owen is still obviously in love with Abby and was never going to let her go alone. He cares far more for her than for Mel, which is also seen when he wants to leave for Santa Barbara with Abby but without Mel, and him putting both his own and Mel's life in danger at the aquarium because he doesn't want to give Abby's location away. Isn't it a bit lazy to dismiss that as bad writing, without looking beneath the surface and seeing there's a reason or motivation for that stupidity? Mel joins because she's hopelessly in love with Owen and the last thing she would want is to let Owen go with Abby without her.
As a book fan I despised the last 3 seasons of Thrones with every fibre of my being... I guess as you said different people take different things from it. I've encouraged tons of people on here to play it and I far from hate it, its a solid 7/10 which I'll be honest I wasn't at all expecting when it first dropped. Maybe me being an opinionated dick kinda makes my points hyperbolic for sure. I will also openly admit, I compare this game to the first game and was it not a Last of Us title, I'd probably let more slide. Part 1 is easily one of the best game narratives I've ever experienced, so I am likely judging the writing and stuff in it, harsher than say I would God of War or even Uncharted.
But its his child... like if Mel's not pregnant then I can totally understand Owen's decision making. I also get the need they had to put him in the room when Joel gets 9 ironed because if he's not there its likely Ellie nor Tommy get out of their alive. Its just its kinda too often silly stuff like that happens as opposed to one thing on their own. Like Owen following Abby is fine, Owen allowing Mel or not turning back with Mel when he finds out she's carrying his child it gets iffy, then you add in Dina doing the same and it becomes a point of (do all pregnant women or parents really care more about their friend/lovers revenge quest than their own unborn child?). If one of these little things happened in isolation I'd say fine, but when they kept piling them up and they add up its becomes a mess.
I'll try and go a bit deeper. In the Joel scene alone.
Fair enough Tommy drops a feck up (twice) and that's possibly in character. Then Joel confirms it to a bunch of armed strangers (I get the argument living in Jackson may have dulled him a bit). Abby shoots him in the knee and minutes after he's saved her doesn't hesitate in taking him out, instead goes for slow beating (purely in there for shock value). While Abby is wasting time and endangering her entire group, Ellie arrives sees Abby clubbing Joel, has a clear shot from the hallway but walks into a room without shooting to get tackled. It all adds up to what to me is a mess. You have Joel behaving out of character, a pregnant woman being fine with chilling on a murder mission and her bf who admittedly cares for Abby more, Ellie behaving out of character and it all kind of feels so contrived and unnatural compared to the way bad shit plays out in TloU 1 if that makes sense. If the Joel scene happened in tlou then Abby gets shot in the head from the corridor by Ellie or Tess.
Theres no one thing that drives me insane as much as there a bunch of small things that makes everything seem off. As I said above, likely a huge amount of this is my love of the first game and me judging it harshly because of it but I just see so many contradictions to characters, so many silly mistakes that happen for writers convenience in comparison to the first game, its tarnishes some great plot points for me.
Oh, I did not like the last two seasons of Game of Thrones at all. I thought both seasons 7 and 8 (but particularly 7) were terrible. That wasn't a defense of GoT! Just to make that clear. I was saying that people were comparing the writing of season 8 of GoT to The Last of Us 2 in terms of how bad it is. And that's just nonsense in my view.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the first game too. I think the second one is better, though. The gameplay is objectively much, much better. It's excellent actually.
Oh right, yeah, its not that level of fall off for sure. But I do genuinely see Walking Dead comparisons as legit, in terms of we need X character in place Y how do we get them there? I dunno, then they make them do something out of character to put them there.
I can understand your thinking but there's some reasonable explanations. For starters; Pregnant woman don't tend to go into isolation when they find out they're pregnant, and in such a harsh world that the group are living in its understandable that a group of friends would rather be there to protect one another and seek revenge for their people being killed. I also think they made it seem like she only found out near the end of their journey that's she's pregnant, but I might be wrong.
It's clear from your walkaround in Jackson that people have started to become more civilised again. It's not out of the realms of possibility that Tommy and Joel would drop back into comfortable thinking, especially with Abby who actively helps them take out the infected on their way back to her group. Their priority is now rebuilding a community, coupled with regimented patrols of a reducing threat from infected. There's also nothing that should suggest to Tommy and Joel that these are bad people since they're welcomed in and, and again since they're living very comfortable lives in Jackson they would be less hardened than they were before. It's stupid from them to be so naive but not really stupid writing.
The Ellie stuff is definitely strange, true, but I can't agree with you on the other stuff.
I mean, he doesn't seem to care. He was going to leave them both behind if he could've, before Mel arrived at the aquarium. You may find that hard to accept, but it is what it is.
Going over the rest of your post would take us too far. Something tells me I'm going to try to keep rationalising stuff and you're going to keep calling it contrived or silly. I feel that if you would apply the same level of scrutiny to literally every other piece of media out there, including the first game, there's not going to be a lot left. Like for example the end of the first game: why does Marlene insist on telling Joel the truth, knowing that would most likely have disastrous consequences? Why, having just done that, does she send just a single soldier with him, when he's clearly proven himself extremely capable and resourceful? Then he goes on to kill a small army and rescue Ellie and she has him at gunpoint at very close range, and she actually goes and puts her gun down. You're clearly less bothered about all of that but someone else could easily describe all of it as contrived and poor writing etc.
Fair points actually, and with most media yes. I thought Marlene stupdily expected Joel to leave, but she knew she had an army. That's kinda it, if you look at the lengths they went to to make the first game flow then that's why the 2nd feels off. I mean the first game was supposed to be a revenge story across the country (Tess after Joel) and they binned it on the premise it was illogical for Joel to bring Ellie in the first place without a love interest (kinda to drive him) and b, a revenge story across an entire country over a year seemed silly to them . Characters aren't always right in pt1 but they are consistent. We're kinda talking in circles but heres the original plot for the first game and the ND said it needed changing then they went back with the sequel and just kinda integrated in there for the sequel despite their reservations originally.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/09/the-last-of-us-original-plot-ending-and-villain-revealed
Oh you beautiful beautiful day. Now I can play this for the first time. I held off until there was a 60fps patch. Now it’s getting switched on in all its glory.
Oh you beautiful beautiful day. Now I can play this for the first time. I held off until there was a 60fps patch. Now it’s getting switched on in all its glory.
Enjoy. It's an incredible game. I would like to go back, but i already got the Platinum in it so there's nothing else to do. Glad they patched it though.
It was amazing but it's hard to imagine playing again. It was really long for a game of that type and there were a few overly long segments in between the story that I don't like the thought of revisiting. It was also ridiculously depressing. A great game but I doubt I'll be going back to it any time soon. Shame as I replayed the first one three times as it didn't have those issues.
Ah this is tempting to go through again. Just a wonderful journey.
I played the last of Us 1 a few years back. Did not know there's a #2. Nice!
In the words of Scar from the Lion King, be prepared.
Definitely. I was literally scared at various moments during gameplay when I played #1, but it was so beautiful. Expectations are high for #2.