The kids

Fortitude said:
There's a difference between cynicism and being reasonable. You effectively dismissed all reserves. That is out of hand.
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I don't think he did. I think he took up a 'I'll believe it when i see it' stance with regards to us saying a new crop could make it. This is a reasonable stance given that most of our previously highly rated reserves have not made it.
 
Fortitude said:
Evans has been praised highly here for months...

The Rossi point is valid. It hasn't happened before with any of the other names you've mentioned that are forwards (that they broke the 1st team set-up)

There's a difference between cynicism and being reasonable. You effectively dismissed all reserves. That is out of hand.
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First time I've seen Evans reap such praise....certainly hasn't reached the levels of Pique or Spector, until yesterday at least..

Again, I don't see the fact that he's a striker is any different from the likes of Fletcher or O'Shea. Seems like straw-clutching to me....

I'm not dismissing all reserves, I'm saying that in my opinion the chances are that none of the current favourites will become a top class player. I'm not saying that no kids are ever going to make it ever again.....
 
Hello spastics

People get overexcited about kids…it’s natural, it means more to the fans than signing some cnut who’s good but thinks Salford is a car parts shop. Add that to the unrealistic expectations formed by the class of 92, which was an anomaly.

Some of this current crop look decent players, but chances are few if any will make it. Eagles for instance, looked classy a year or two back, already he looks rubbish. That’s the way it is – there are twenty or so places, which can be filled by anyone in the world who we can afford, and wants to come. Chances that a lad from our particular academy happens to be good enough is slim…you’re looking at one or two pretty good or squad players every few years, like Wes and Sheasy. That’ll do me.

Fletcher was really outstanding at reserve level – in the games I saw he was dominating games, miles better than any midfielder I’ve seen before or since, David Jones for instance. He’s had so many chances partly cos Fergie, like me, just couldn’t believe he wasn’t going to make it, and partly cos Fergie against all the odds, kept buying midfielders who were even less effective.

Rossi’s not one of “our kids”, we nicked him off Parma. He looks lightweight at first-team level. I really hope he makes it, he’s certainly talented…but it’s far from inevitable.

With Specter, I have to say every time he played for the first team i thought he looked the part...was a bit confused when he stopped getting games. But the coaches must have seen something.

I’m a huge fan of Darron Gibson…reckon he’s got the lot. He’ll probably end up at Scunthorpe.

Fortitude said:
Are Rangers and their 50 odd thousand fans a joke or summat?
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Yes
 
Davo said:
First time I've seen Evans reap such praise....certainly hasn't reached the levels of Pique or Spector, until yesterday at least..

Again, I don't see the fact that he's a striker is any different from the likes of Fletcher or O'Shea. Seems like straw-clutching to me....

I'm not dismissing all reserves, I'm saying that in my opinion the chances are that none of the current favourites will become a top class player. I'm not saying that no kids are ever going to make it ever again.....
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There is a massive difference between blooding a forward and a midfielder or full-back. A midfielder can be given menial jobs until he finds his feet, or plonked out wide where he doesn't have to do much, the same goes for full-backs. You will find most youngsters that come in are shoved out wide straight away and then worked into their natural position. Rossi is right in the thick of it from the off. It's a much bigger responsibility and one that hasn't been given to a player up through the reserves in years. It means a lot that the manager would give him a role amongst multi-million pound strikers.

My point all along was that you have no grounds on which to just dismiss this lot. They've done what they could on the stages presented. We'll see how they get on from this point onward. All reserves are not created equal...which is what your list suggested.
 
Rossi's not lightweight, there were a few instances yesterday where he had 3 or 4 players around him and he kept the ball brilliantly.

I think that's a misconception about Rossi, he is actually a tough bugger for such a small fella.

The biggest test is whether he has the mental ability to make the step up, whether he can handle playing for a club our size and on a stage that size. What impressed me yesterday was how despite having not had the luck in front of goal pre-season, and having a frustrating first half, he didnt crumble or drift out the game as many would and have done before, he kept going and by the end I thought he was probably our best player.

I think he's got the biggest chance, 4 team goals to his name already in not many appearances. We'll see though...I certainly dont think theres anything wrong with saying these players are promising. They wouldnt have won every trophy possible last year (unprecedented) or played so well pre-season if they didnt have something to them. No one is saying anything is inevitable or definite. Some people just love to shit on other peoples chips...before they've even bought them.
 
Fortitude said:
There is a massive difference between blooding a forward and a midfielder or Full back. A midfielder can be given menial jobs until he finds his feet, or plonked out wide where he doesn;t have to do much, the same goes for Fullbacks. You will find most youngsters that come in are shoved out wide straight away and then worked into their natural position. Rossi is right in the thick of it from the off. It's a much bigger responsibility and one that hasn't been given to a player up through the reserves in years. It means a lot that the manager would give him a role amongst multi-million pound strikers.

My point all along was that you have no grounds on which to just dismiss this lot. They've done what they could on the stages presented. We'll see how they get on from this point onward. All reserves are not created equal...which is what your list suggested.
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In fairness, it's a valid point re positions in terms of blooding them in wide positions. You can do less damage playing at full back than at CB. You're still emphasising the fact that Rossi's a striker too much mind....he's not in the first team, he's on the fringes and has done little in proper matches as yet. Yes, it seems you're willing to take a bit of a chance on him...but then you're also linked to Tevez/Torres and the like regularly...

I've told you, I'm not dismissing the lot. Stop saying I have. Why would you keep saying that? Weirdo

I'm also not claiming that all reserves are equal, obviously. What I've said is that this hype is no new thing, and has been happening for years...with no success. You don't believe me

Hello Pletch
 
Davo said:
You're still emphasising the fact that Rossi's a striker too much mind....he's not in the first team, he's on the fringes and has done little in proper matches as yet.
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4 goals and a very good performance against Charlton.

He's done well when he's been given the chance...

Sadly one of the many things to loathe about Chelsea is they have raised the bar so ridiculously that any team giving kids a chance at league level are taking a risk, given all young players are erratic and teams cant afford to drop a single point. Arsenal is a good example. Hence why I think we're apparently looking at Torres/Tevez and not gambling completely on Rossi.
 
Technically, Rossi's one of the best players at the club

He is lightweight though Van, it's just that he tries to compensate for it by being a determined little bugger. Straight back up when he's knocked down, which is how it should be.

He'll likely get his chance this year, and it's about mentality as much as anything from that point on. He's too good not to be given the chance at least, though.

You have to be careful when judging young players by the odd appearance in the first team. What they may lack in ability, is often hidden by that extra bit of enthusiasm/desire they have
 
I think Evans will make it to be a good player. Not sure about top class, but a good player. Rossi and Pique likewise.

Richardson keeps surprising me, as I never thought he would make it for attitude reasons, but he seems to be able to raise his game. He needs to work on his passing, but could yet surprise us all and be a decent player as well - though not good enough for our first team.

Gibson, Bardsley, Simpson, Martin, McShane, and Campbell all have promise, but I think they'll end up in the lower divisions. Martin and Simpson look like they have the best chance to me.

Spector wasn't improving. He's a headcase - makes up for an almost complete lack of positional sense with his pace, but he'll never be a clever enough defender to be able to anticipate danger, and he'll never be 100% comfortable on the ball. Evans and Pique both look better.
 
VanNistelrater said:
4 goals and a very good performance against Charlton.

He's done well when he's been given the chance...

Sadly one of the many things to loathe about Chelsea is they have raised the bar so ridiculously that any team giving kids a chance at league level are taking a risk, given all young players are erratic and teams cant afford to drop a single point. Arsenal is a good example. Hence why I think we're apparently looking at Torres/Tevez and not gambling completely on Rossi.
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I can't remember him scoring any goals? Who were they against?
 
Rossi needs stilts. I've said this before.
 
VanNistelrater said:
4 goals and a very good performance against Charlton.

He's done well when he's been given the chance...

Sadly one of the many things to loathe about Chelsea is they have raised the bar so ridiculously that any team giving kids a chance at league level are taking a risk, given all young players are erratic and teams cant afford to drop a single point. Arsenal is a good example. Hence why I think we're apparently looking at Torres/Tevez and not gambling completely on Rossi.
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Welcome to the debate :)
 
noodlehair said:
Technically, Rossi's one of the best players at the club

He is lightweight though Van, it's just that he tries to compensate for it by being a determined little bugger. Straight back up when he's knocked down, which is how it should be.

He'll likely get his chance this year, and it's about mentality as much as anything from that point on. He's too good not to be given the chance at least, though.

You have to be careful when judging young players by the odd appearance in the first team. What they may lack in ability, is often hidden by that extra bit of enthusiasm/desire they have
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He holds the ball up well I think.

And I agree re: mental ability, as I said, I think that is the crucial aspect.
 
And I don't believe the hype about either Richard or David Jones.
 
VanNistelrater said:
Rossi's not lightweight, there were a few instances yesterday where he had 3 or 4 players around him and he kept the ball brilliantly.

I think that's a misconception about Rossi, he is actually a tough bugger for such a small fella.

The biggest test is whether he has the mental ability to make the step up, whether he can handle playing for a club our size and on a stage that size. What impressed me yesterday was how despite having not had the luck in front of goal pre-season, and having a frustrating first half, he didnt crumble or drift out the game as many would and have done before, he kept going and by the end I thought he was probably our best player.

I think he's got the biggest chance, 4 team goals to his name already in not many appearances. We'll see though...I certainly dont think theres anything wrong with saying these players are promising. They wouldnt have won every trophy possible last year (unprecedented) or played so well pre-season if they didnt have something to them. No one is saying anything is inevitable or definite. Some people just love to shit on other peoples chips...before they've even bought them.
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Rossi looks good, but it's a bit different when you poach a player at eighteen, off another good side. You'd expect him to have a decent chance or we wouldn't have poached him.

Yeah...I've stopped getting so excited though since Fletcher turned out to be rubbish.

Winning trophies is good...part of the class of 92 thing was the team spirit...players like Gaz and Phil and Butty who might not have been brilliant, developed into decent pros - in Gaz's case a very good player - partly cos of the winning mentality, I reckon.

It is a bit different now though. These days we're expected to be among the best in Europe, which we weren't so much in 96. And with Chelsea having top class in every position (except left-back), the first team can't afford to have many just decent players if we're to compete.

If we're to stay in the top, say, 12 clubs in Europe, these lads have to be good enough to force themselves into that pool of a hundred and fifty or so players, from all over the world, who are good enough to start in those sides. That's not very likely, given that these players are drawn from the hundreds of academies and first teams of clubs all over Europe and South America and beyond.
 
sincher said:
And I don't believe the hype about either Richard or David Jones.
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I agree, I dont think Jones can make the step up. He hasnt physically progressed at all, I think he is vastly over-rated to be honest. Even at reserve level he didnt show that much, I dont think.

Yesterday was a good example. Picked before Miller, when he came on I thought Fletch outshone him to be honest. He kept it tidy but he didnt look at any moment that he could really influence the game.
 
Davo said:
In fairness, it's a valid point re positions in terms of blooding them in wide positions. You can do less damage playing at full back than at CB. You're still emphasising the fact that Rossi's a striker too much mind....he's not in the first team, he's on the fringes and has done little in proper matches as yet. Yes, it seems you're willing to take a bit of a chance on him...but then you're also linked to Tevez/Torres and the like regularly...

I've told you, I'm not dismissing the lot. Stop saying I have. Why would you keep saying that? Weirdo

I'm also not claiming that all reserves are equal, obviously. What I've said is that this hype is no new thing, and has been happening for years...with no success. You don't believe me

Hello Pletch
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Well let's see Torres/Tevez come through the door and not the media shite first, eh?

By comparing the hype others have recieved and simply lumping the new lot in with it, you are effectively dismissing them, whether you mean to or not.

I don't believe you about the hype, no. Outside the 3 I mentioned, I don't think there has been anything as big as what you suggest.
 
Richard Jones looks likes a decent centre-back converted to midfield because he could pass a bit. He should probably go back.
 
Plechazunga said:
Rossi looks good, but it's a bit different when you poach a player at eighteen, off another good side. You'd expect him to have a decent chance or we wouldn't have poached him.

Yeah...I've stopped getting so excited though since Fletcher turned out to be rubbish.

Winning trophies is good...part of the class of 92 thing was the team spirit...players like Gaz and Phil and Butty who might not have been brilliant, developed into decent pros - in Gaz's case a very good player - partly cos of the winning mentality, I reckon.

It is a bit different now though. These days we're expected to be among the best in Europe, which we weren't so much in 96. And with Chelsea having top class in every position (except left-back), the first team can't afford to have many just decent players if we're to compete.

If we're to stay in the top, say, 12 clubs in Europe, these lads have to be good enough to force themselves into that pool of a hundred and fifty or so players, from all over the world, who are good enough to start in those sides. That's not very likely, given that these players are drawn from the hundreds of academies and first teams of clubs all over Europe and South America and beyond.
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Id agree with that. I think at least a few have a very good chance though.

If forced to put money on it id say Rossi, Martin and possibly Evans will be in and around the first team in a few years.

I still havent seen Gibson play, what's he like?
 
Fortitude said:
Well let's see Torres/Tevez come through the door and not the media shite first, eh?

By comparing the hype others have recieved and simply lumping the new lot in with it, you are effectively dismissing them, whether you mean to or not.

I don't believe you about the hype, no. Outside the 3 I mentioned, I don't think there has been anything as big as what you suggest.
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Yeah, I'm happy to wait and see. Particularly on the subject of young players...

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying the liklihood is that none will make it as top players. Let me know when one does

re the hype. Rossi's up there with the biggest of them, the other's aren't. I don't believe that you haven't seen this...
 
noodlehair said:
Remember that Lynch lad?

He was really crap
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Awful. And Ronnie Wallwork was a regular in the Premiership last season. How?
 
VanNistelrater said:
I still havent seen Gibson play, what's he like?
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He's tough, very good passer, great shot on him, bit of courage and authority about him. As I say, most likely Scunthorpe

Reckon you're being a bit harsh on David Jones. He was fecking class last year, and kept scoring all the time. He's too thin and slow though.

I've never seen Pique not play like a spastic
 
In reality, Wallwork's probably at the same level as some of the kids that have been hyped up by many recently.

They won't know that mind
 
Danny Pugh's an alright player - good at Championship level.

Danny Higginbotham likewise. Another great name. Nearly as good as Paul Heckingbottom, who's actually shite.
 
VanNistelrater said:
Id agree with that. I think at least a few have a very good chance though.

If forced to put money on it id say Rossi, Martin and possibly Evans will be in and around the first team in a few years.

I still havent seen Gibson play, what's he like?
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Gibson may well be the best of the bunch. He's CM from what i've seen, can do a bit of attacking and defending. He has a good touch and a bit of skill, and he's well built.
 
Plechazunga said:
He's tough, very good passer, great shot on him, bit of courage and authority about him. As I say, most likely Scunthorpe

Reckon you're being a bit harsh on David Jones. He was fecking class last year, and kept scoring all the time. He's too thin and slow though.

I've never seen Pique not play like a spastic
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Strange re. Pique. He looks good to me - and played well for the first team at right back in his one premiership game to date.

Gibson is nothing special.
 
sincher said:
Awful. And Ronnie Wallwork was a regular in the Premiership last season. How?
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It's a bit hard to comprehend at times

McShane is a walking disaster zone everytime he plays for us, yet looked more acomplished than most during his loan spell.

Weird
 
Plechazunga said:
Rossi looks good, but it's a bit different when you poach a player at eighteen, off another good side. You'd expect him to have a decent chance or we wouldn't have poached him.

Yeah...I've stopped getting so excited though since Fletcher turned out to be rubbish.

Winning trophies is good...part of the class of 92 thing was the team spirit...players like Gaz and Phil and Butty who might not have been brilliant, developed into decent pros - in Gaz's case a very good player - partly cos of the winning mentality, I reckon.

It is a bit different now though. These days we're expected to be among the best in Europe, which we weren't so much in 96. And with Chelsea having top class in every position (except left-back), the first team can't afford to have many just decent players if we're to compete.

If we're to stay in the top, say, 12 clubs in Europe, these lads have to be good enough to force themselves into that pool of a hundred and fifty or so players, from all over the world, who are good enough to start in those sides. That's not very likely, given that these players are drawn from the hundreds of academies and first teams of clubs all over Europe and South America and beyond.
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Rossi came here after just turning 16, we have a hand in the player he is now at 19. Agree with the rest.
 
Aye, I'm being a bit harsh on Pique. He does tend to do one gimptarded thing though each game, Rio/Wes style.

Also, he looks like he was born with a proper elephant's trunk, which was then surgically removed
 
You're right, he does one retarded thing every game, hence the phrase 'a fit of pique'.
 
Davo said:
In reality, Wallwork's probably at the same level as some of the kids that have been hyped up by many recently.

They won't know that mind
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That's not true. You just said you first saw Evans' last night. How in the feck would you know who or who isn't at whatever level if you don't watch these kids? It's the collective dismissal that annoys me in what you're saying.
 
It's based on the fact that academy kids are unlikely to become top players...which is true

And are you sure Rossi was 16? I thought he was 17. Either way, my point is that if you nick the top talent at an Italian club, then yes, he's going to have a better chance than most who weren't cherry-picked in such a way.
 
Think we had to wait till his 17th birthday to sign him to professional terms, but the deal was done beforehand.

That was deeply uninteresting Sinch, thanks very much.

In other news, Kenny Cooper has been repurposed as a traffic light.
 
Plechazunga said:
It's based on the fact that academy kids are unlikely to become top players...which is true

And are you sure Rossi was 16? I thought he was 17. Either way, my point is that if you nick the top talent at an Italian club, then yes, he's going to have a better chance than most who weren't cherry-picked in such a way.
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We used to be able to cherry pick the best of the UK, until the FA in their wisdom enforced the 60 mile rule.

Until that is gotten rid of, our 'poaches' from foreign clubs have a much greater statistical chance of success.
 
Plechazunga said:
It's based on the fact that academy kids are unlikely to become top players...which is true

And are you sure Rossi was 16? I thought he was 17. Either way, my point is that if you nick the top talent at an Italian club, then yes, he's going to have a better chance than most who weren't cherry-picked in such a way.
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You cannot bracket them all as equals. Of course the failure rate will be high, very high in fact. At the same time there are some talents who warrant a special tag and you keep an eye for them.
 
Stats seem to work most of the time......


Of the 450 youth players who have played in the FA Youth Cup.....

15% went on to become internationals
33% played for our first team
69% went on to play league football and have some kind of career in the game...

Only Ajax can come close and West ham have the closest 'hit rate' from other English clubs.....

I am never going to say that everyone will make it.....that's impossible.....but we still keep producing great talent.....end of story...

Anyone on here from other clubs.....get your records out and let's do some comparisons.............otherwise??????
 
.................just put lots of these down and hope for the best...............?

Pretty decent stats, those.
 
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