The John Murtough Era

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ilrm said:
This is going to be easier than what it looks like when you consider the players whose contracts are set to expire. Rashford, Ronaldo, De Gea, Jones, Shaw, Dalot and Fred expire in 2023. That should automatically save about £55m in wages bringing down wages to £330m.
Potential sales of players in the last year of their contracts (2024) Maguire, AWB, Martial and Lindelöf, may bring in further £££.
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I wouldn't get my hopes up for savings... Because as the salaries of some players go down, the salaries of other players may go up. And new stars appear every year, their price goes up. In general, as we know, everything gets more expensive! And even a packet of chips gets a little more expensive every year just because of inflation :)
 
ilrm said:
This is going to be easier than what it looks like when you consider the players whose contracts are set to expire. Rashford, Ronaldo, De Gea, Jones, Shaw, Dalot and Fred expire in 2023. That should automatically save about £55m in wages bringing down wages to £330m.
Potential sales of players in the last year of their contracts (2024) Maguire, AWB, Martial and Lindelöf, may bring in further £££.
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Rashford and Dalot will get new contracts. Both likely on higher wages. I can even see De Gea getting a new deal, or at least triggering the 12 month extension, to save splurging on a new keeper for now.

There are a handful of players we could let go and barely feel any impact. They are definitely wage savers. But there aren't many. Tuanzebe, Williams, Beek, Henderson, Jones. It's not a fortune relatively speaking.

The other players possibly leaving will need replacing. Their wage savings will be reissued to new players.
 
He 100% bought Casemiro without consulting the manager.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
What's Murtough got to do with any cultural reset? His job was to bring in the players on the list given to him. He did that
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Generally you'd want the director of football to have some idea of the list themselves, not just ask a manager who wasn't responsible for identifying players at Ajax to just name some players he knew. That being said it's probably too early to be judging Murtough and regardless of his performance he's not the cause of games like today.
 
Well John, you and your cnut bosses are going to have to put your hands in your pocket and spend a shit ton more money to have this side competing.
 
As far as I'm concerned he's worst then Woodward. He's got less experience and he's not prudent, the evidence is there for all to see in the way United conducted their strategy in the summer window. The Arnautovic saga perhaps the most ridiculous thing that happened all summer.

The issue why Murtough is undoubtedly one of the biggest issues when it comes to problems with this club (even more so than inadequate players) is his incompetence forces a huge financial commitment that the Glazers are incapable of funding.

If there's a good director of football then there's a case to say that United can reconstruct this team using the scouting infrastructure and whatever data analysis to come to a critical judgement on relatively unknown players who can have a impactful influence to offset the disparity in a huge financial outlay.

What the reality is there's an individual who has no experience in this field and has made the mistake (not learning from Ed) of giving total liability to the manager when it comes to recruitment. This approach has failed under consecutive managers yet it is the structure that has taken place.

A rubbish director of football, rubbish owners and a competitive league means the gap between the top domestic teams and United widens. The only random anomaly that prevents this is a world class manager and to some extent I believe ETH has the makings of one but the level of players at his disposal is insufficient. The way I see it if the Glazers dont move with their stake at the club the most expendable person of power with control is Murtough.

Rubbish owners and a good director of football alongside manager is the best hope in the clubs business model to move forward.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Poor manager. He got top class dmc without wanting him.
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The problem over the past ten years has been square pegs round holes. I don't think there's a Casemiro shaped hole in the squad.

If we were convinced that FdJ wasn't coming and we'd play Eriksen at DLP and Bruno at #10 what we needed was a better McTominay, not a Casemiro.
 
Its becoming increasingly evident that Casemiro was brought behind the manager's back. If that's the case then its further proof that Murtough was Woodward's right hand man on everything football related which means that nothing had changed by him being appointed DOF. Last year was a living embodiment of all that was wrong in the past 10 years. We stuck to Ole for too long, we brought in a has been as temporary manager only to pay silly money for us to get rid off, we kept staff (Phelan) no one wants, we overspent, we were unable to get rid of the deadwood and we relied heavily on the manager regarding transfers. I wonder if we even bother replacing our chief scouts yet. Oh well at least he brought some data analysts in
 
Vapor trail said:
As far as I'm concerned he's worst then Woodward. He's got less experience and he's not prudent, the evidence is there for all to see in the way United conducted their strategy in the summer window. The Arnautovic saga perhaps the most ridiculous thing that happened all summer.

The issue why Murtough is undoubtedly one of the biggest issues when it comes to problems with this club (even more so than inadequate players) is his incompetence forces a huge financial commitment that the Glazers are incapable of funding.

If there's a good director of football then there's a case to say that United can reconstruct this team using the scouting infrastructure and whatever data analysis to come to a critical judgement on relatively unknown players who can have a impactful influence to offset the disparity in a huge financial outlay.

What the reality is there's an individual who has no experience in this field and has made the mistake (not learning from Ed) of giving total liability to the manager when it comes to recruitment. This approach has failed under consecutive managers yet it is the structure that has taken place.

A rubbish director of football, rubbish owners and a competitive league means the gap between the top domestic teams and United widens. The only random anomaly that prevents this is a world class manager and to some extent I believe ETH has the makings of one but the level of players at his disposal is insufficient. The way I see it if the Glazers dont move with their stake at the club the most expendable person of power with control is Murtough.

Rubbish owners and a good director of football alongside manager is the best hope in the clubs business model to move forward.
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Yeah get him out of this club and bring in a proper DOF like Mitchell/Campos. Guy is clueless
 
golden_blunder said:
Curious. What’s his job then if it’s not to buy players? (Not his only task)
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His job is not to be the manager's errand boy, to be given a list he must follow unquestioningly. A DoF works alongside the manager, not under him, by virtue of his experience and knowledge and does his best to balance the manager and bring the long-term vision of the club to bear. So no surprises there then that Murtough delegated his duties to Ten Hag. @Vapor trail got the gist of it, more or less.
 
Telsim said:
His job is not to be the manager's errand boy, to be given a list he must follow unquestioningly. A DoF works alongside the manager, not under him, by virtue of his experience and knowledge and does his best to balance the manager and bring the long-term vision of the club to bear. So no surprises there then that Murtough delegated his duties to Ten Hag. @Vapor trail got the gist of it, more or less.
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So ten Hag went and concluded all those deals?
 
Let us hope that Murtough and the Glazers recognise that football clubs need constant and consistent planning and investment, that they are planning for January and planning for the summer and planning for the next three years under this manger……It’s a nice story, a bit like Father Christmas, but neither are probably true.
 
golden_blunder said:
So ten Hag went and concluded all those deals?
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here? Murtough went joyriding across Europe and managed to close a couple of deals, as ordained by Ten Hag, by paying significantly over the odds after the season had already started and we had been comprehensively beaten by Brighton and Brentford. So I guess good job Murtough, you fulfilled your duties?
 
Telsim said:
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here? Murtough went joyriding across Europe and managed to close a couple of deals, as ordained by Ten Hag, by paying significantly over the odds after the season had already started and we had been comprehensively beaten by Brighton and Brentford. So I guess good job Murtough, you fulfilled your duties?
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I’m no saying that I’m curious what the poster thinks his job is? Ten Hag obviously gave him the list of targets he wanted and the profile. Ten Hag doesn’t go and do the deals himself which was my point

also im not concluding if he did a good or bad job
 
The problem is there is no one at the club who's ready to take the difficult decisions. It's all delegating and shifting the responsibility. There's very little chance we can assemble a team who can play progressive football under the Glazers and the likes of Murtough.
 
golden_blunder said:
I’m no saying that I’m curious what the poster thinks his job is? Ten Hag obviously gave him the list of targets he wanted and the profile. Ten Hag doesn’t go and do the deals himself which was my point

also im not concluding if he did a good or bad job
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I think it's fair enough to say his first 6-8 months in charge have been shambolic. Paying 14m to Ralf, overpaying for Antony, the whole FdJ saga. I don't know how you can claim any successes here.

If Casemiro flops then his head has to roll. That'll mean 200m+ spent without much to show for it again.
 
Teja said:
I think it's fair enough to say his first 6-8 months in charge have been shambolic. Paying 14m to Ralf, overpaying for Antony, the whole FdJ saga. I don't know how you can claim any successes here.

If Casemiro flops then his head has to roll. That'll mean 200m+ spent without much to show for it again.
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I really am only answering 1 particular part of a conversation that I found strange
 
This thread for me is topsy turvey, we beat Liverpool & arsenal and the summer seemed like great business and we have fans proclaiming that we could win the title. A hammering by city and everything is the worst again.

murtough or no murtough we need to realise that the job has just begun and there are no quick fixes
 
Main thing for me is to see what happens in future windows, we can't sustain £200m summer spending, we need to get a structure in place where we can get players in around the £20m-£40m range, which means 3/4 signings until we successfully overhaul the dross from the squad.

Haven't really kept up with the goings on around the club, but have we actually replaced the head scouts or scouts that were binned 6 months ago? If not then Murtough needs a kick up the backside to get his plans into gear - if he really means we can't spend vast sums of money every year (he's right) then he needs to act in a way that allows us to operate in a way we don't have to.

January is coming up fast, we need people in place to be able to identify players that suits the way he wants us to play for a reasonable outlay, there were excuses made for him in the summer that the scouts had only just left - in January he'd have had 8 months to appoint scouts, if he fails then its a mark against his appointment.
 
yumtum said:
Main thing for me is to see what happens in future windows, we can't sustain £200m summer spending, we need to get a structure in place where we can get players in around the £20m-£40m range, which means 3/4 signings until we successfully overhaul the dross from the squad.

Haven't really kept up with the goings on around the club, but have we actually replaced the head scouts or scouts that were binned 6 months ago? If not then Murtough needs a kick up the backside to get his plans into gear - if he really means we can't spend vast sums of money every year (he's right) then he needs to act in a way that allows us to operate in a way we don't have to.

January is coming up fast, we need people in place to be able to identify players that suits the way he wants us to play for a reasonable outlay, there were excuses made for him in the summer that the scouts had only just left - in January he'd have had 8 months to appoint scouts, if he fails then its a mark against his appointment.
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The good is we don't have to sustain that level of spending if we do our homework right, I mean let's be honest that amount was inflated by 25-50% because we didn't. The bad is our decisionmakers are the type to get their homework eaten by the dog. Whether through inexperience, incompetence or bad luck there will always be some reason much can't be asked.
 
BluesJr said:
He 100% bought Casemiro without consulting the manager.
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Yes I think this as well. The fact TH hasnt started him in a premier game so far, also strengthens my belief in this. Obviously he will eventually start as he is a better player than Mc Tom.
 
Greck said:
The good is we don't have to sustain that level of spending if we do our homework right, I mean let's be honest that amount was inflated by 25-50% because we didn't. The bad is our decisionmakers are the type to get their homework eaten by the dog. Whether through inexperience, incompetence or bad luck there will always be some reason much can't be asked.
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Yup, we'll see if Murtough has the ability to be successful in the next few windows, he's already said not to expect out summer spending again, which is completely fair, my main worry is that he thinks supporters just wants spending for spending sake - what supporters actually want is to see long term planning and signings to fit into our club.

So he has to implement a system where we can sign players for 20m and have them slot right into the system, if he fails at that then he'll have no choice but to spend 200m again (at some point).

I'd rather see us spend 50-100m a summer signing the right players to fit the club rather than "names" to fit our social media strategy.
 
yumtum said:
Yup, we'll see if Murtough has the ability to be successful in the next few windows, he's already said not to expect out summer spending again, which is completely fair, my main worry is that he thinks supporters just wants spending for spending sake - what supporters actually want is to see long term planning and signings to fit into our club.

.
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That's precisely what they want. Because if we refuse to sign a player because the price is not right or the club doesn't think it's the right fit, they'll just screech "back the manager" for the entire season.

We've seen this story repeat every single season.
 
Skills said:
That's precisely what they want. Because if we refuse to sign a player because the price is not right or the club doesn't think it's the right fit, they'll just screech "back the manager" for the entire season.

We've seen this story repeat every single season.
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The issue last summer was chasing players that involved huge fees - if we had our structure in order then we could be targeting players that were on the cusp of the next step, we would have held more power in thar scenario.

As it was we were chasing players only tghe managed knew about which put us in a terrible position.

We'll see what happens in January and summer windows, as those are the windows in which Murtough should be judged on.
 
yumtum said:
The issue last summer was chasing players that involved huge fees - if we had our structure in order then we could be targeting players that were on the cusp of the next step, we would have held more power in thar scenario.

As it was we were chasing players only tghe managed knew about which put us in a terrible position.

We'll see what happens in January and summer windows, as those are the windows in which Murtough should be judged on.
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The underlying problem is the same though. The manager holds way too much influence in the clubs decision making - and if there's any challenge to his authority, the clubs fanbase will lose its shit. Again.

The tails wagging the dog.
 
yumtum said:
The issue last summer was chasing players that involved huge fees - if we had our structure in order then we could be targeting players that were on the cusp of the next step, we would have held more power in thar scenario.

As it was we were chasing players only tghe managed knew about which put us in a terrible position.

We'll see what happens in January and summer windows, as those are the windows in which Murtough should be judged on.
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His assessment period has started, in fact we're well into it. Don't like referencing old takes but everyone was adamant this time last year that we should only start judging him this summer and even that was super generous. There's no need to continue backdating it till the end of time. Not having a structure is the same as CR not attending preseason, self-inflicted and should be held accountable.

He also literally picked the last 2 managers, one of which was already hired, assessed and fired. The timeframe of relevant decisionmaking cannot exclude decisions that have already begun directly affecting the performance of those around him. Football operates on dog years so basically, yes, he can and should absolutely be assessed for decisions made this year.
 
Skills said:
The underlying problem is the same though. The manager holds way too much influence in the clubs decision making - and if there's any challenge to his authority, the clubs fanbase will lose its shit. Again.

The tails wagging the dog.
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The problem is there's 2 ways to "back the manager", there's giving them too much influence as you note or putting a structure in place where they aren't burdened with being solely responsible for the identifying of players because the club is on top of identifying good players at good prices who fit the system and is able to bring them in.

The reason it's become a phrase with a section of our fanbase is because when they haven't done the first of those two it's not like the club has done the second, their 2 modes seem to be either completely relying on the manager or not fully trusting the manager and being inactive. The hope was that with Murtough in place that that wouldn't be the case but it doesn't look like that thus far and our recruitment this summer seemed to be based mostly on just targeting players Ten Hag personally knew, I guess we will see if that changes once the new head(s) of scouting are brought in
 
golden_blunder said:
This thread for me is topsy turvey, we beat Liverpool & arsenal and the summer seemed like great business and we have fans proclaiming that we could win the title. A hammering by city and everything is the worst again.

murtough or no murtough we need to realise that the job has just begun and there are no quick fixes
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A top manager (ex SAF) could win irrespective whether the club is well managed or not. Thus the DOF's role is independent on what happens on the pitch and how many trophies we win. His job is to make sure that the club is managed smoothly at the back end. That means

- Roles are filled quickly and with the right people
- we don't waste money (ex giving a 14m compensation to a temporary manager who should have been here for a few months)
- we don't overspend (is Antony worth 100m?)
- the manager's and the club's vision are well aligned. Its not always possible to bring in the player the manager want but if he asks for a Paul Scholes he doesn't end up with a Nicky Butt
- we are actually able to get rid of the deadwood while making as much money out of those deals as possible
- we don't always rely solely on the manager's feedback regarding transfers
- we don't have redundant coaches (why is Phelan still on our payroll?)

Our club history is basically built around just 2 managers. The DOF role is to break United's absolute need to having a genius as a manager for it to succeed.
 
devilish said:
A top manager (ex SAF) could win irrespective whether the club is well managed or not. Thus the DOF's role is independent on what happens on the pitch and how many trophies we win. His job is to make sure that the club is managed smoothly at the back end. That means

- Roles are filled quickly and with the right people
- we don't waste money (ex giving a 14m compensation to a temporary manager who should have been here for a few months)
- we don't overspend (is Antony worth 100m?)
- the manager's and the club's vision are well aligned. Its not always possible to bring in the player the manager want but if he asks for a Paul Scholes he doesn't end up with a Nicky Butt
- we are actually able to get rid of the deadwood while making as much money out of those deals as possible
- we don't always rely solely on the manager's feedback regarding transfers
- we don't have redundant coaches (why is Phelan still on our payroll?)

Our club history is basically built around just 2 managers. The DOF role is to break United's absolute need to having a genius as a manager for it to succeed.
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Doesn’t address any of my post, just a reiteration of your normal stuff. Surprised you didn’t mention Fletcher too
 
golden_blunder said:
Doesn’t address any of my post, just a reiteration of your normal stuff. Surprised you didn’t mention Fletcher too
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It did actually if you only cared to read it properly. Let me explain it to you in simpler terms. The DOF (we're talking about him after all) can't and shouldn't be judged on RESULTS, at least not directly. Inter for example won the treble thanks solely to Mourinho.. Neither Moratti (who was like a 13 year old playing FM) nor his best mate Branca had a clue of what they were doing and the best decision they made was to allow carte blanche to the manager. Once Mou left, everything went tits up.

DOF are to be judged on the smooth running of the club from the back end. The metrics to be used in such circumstances would be shrewd signings made, how many players are doing well in the academy, how much money we're making when selling players, if we're not overpaying players (fee and salaries), if we're hiring the right people etc. Regarding 'waiting' that also depends. A top DOF can have an immediate effect on the club. I dare to say that Paratici's brilliance in bringing in Conte, Bentancur and Kulusevski as opposed to United's stance in first sending Ole on a holiday to then sack him and bringing in a DOF in all but name as manager only to fail from backing him in January is what made the difference between us and Spurs winning that 4th CL spot.
 
devilish said:
A top manager (ex SAF) could win irrespective whether the club is well managed or not. Thus the DOF's role is independent on what happens on the pitch and how many trophies we win. His job is to make sure that the club is managed smoothly at the back end. That means

- Roles are filled quickly and with the right people
- we don't waste money (ex giving a 14m compensation to a temporary manager who should have been here for a few months)
- we don't overspend (is Antony worth 100m?)
- the manager's and the club's vision are well aligned. Its not always possible to bring in the player the manager want but if he asks for a Paul Scholes he doesn't end up with a Nicky Butt
- we are actually able to get rid of the deadwood while making as much money out of those deals as possible
- we don't always rely solely on the manager's feedback regarding transfers
- we don't have redundant coaches (why is Phelan still on our payroll?)

Our club history is basically built around just 2 managers. The DOF role is to break United's absolute need to having a genius as a manager for it to succeed.
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SAF was the DOF and football has massively moved on since his time too
 
Cassidy said:
SAF was the DOF and football has massively moved on since his time too
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Oh I agree with all of that. However that's not my point. Let's say that a 50 year old SAF returned to football as our manager. Surely our performances would improve. Does that mean that Murtough and co would suddenly become great in their jobs? Of course not! The DOF is judged on different metrics to those of a manager. Managers are mostly judged on success on the pitch vis a vis the resources handled at his disposal (for example you can't expect Brighton's manager to win the local treble). DOFs on the other hand are judged on various metrices I've mentioned above
 
golden_blunder said:
This thread for me is topsy turvey, we beat Liverpool & arsenal and the summer seemed like great business and we have fans proclaiming that we could win the title. A hammering by city and everything is the worst again.

murtough or no murtough we need to realise that the job has just begun and there are no quick fixes
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Yes, it'll take time but if we're serious we'll have to put in a decent structure in place. The likes of Murtough are from Woodward's group. Basically it's more of the same. We're competing with City and we have to be at the races.
 
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