The Impossible Draft R1 - idmanager vs Tuppet

With players at career peaks, who will win this match?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
Disagree with the OP that it’s a team built to get the best out of Ronaldinho, given there’s Blokhin, Riva and a rampaging Masopust all congesting that inside left channel that Ronaldinho liked to operate in.

It’s still a great set up, but I think saying it’s built around Ronaldinho is a bit of a stretch. Riva wasn’t a poacher so he’ll be moving into some of those same spaces.
 
Theon said:
Disagree with the OP that it’s a team built to get the best out of Ronaldinho, given there’s Blokhin, Riva and a rampaging Masopust all congesting that inside left channel that Ronaldinho liked to operate in.

It’s still a great set up, but I think saying it’s built around Ronaldinho is a bit of a stretch. Riva wasn’t a poacher so he’ll be moving into some of those same spaces.
Click to expand...

Andrade was preferred as the right half back precisely because of this left heavy attack. Him and Forster there is as good a block as it gets.

Speaking of left sided load, one thing that seems to have been ignored is Cubillas preferring the left side as well and overloading Sensini and Campbell with Gento. That would be a great advantage in weakening that side as well as freeing Spencer when Campbell tries to help out against Cubillas and Gento
 
Enigma_87 said:
Might come across a bit shortsighted but I’m the same..
Click to expand...

I think rather than diluting their impact a bit they are completely dismissed which is disappointing.

To think I was thinking of picking Sarosi if Spencer gets picked. That would have probably ended the match before it started :lol:
 
Mixed feeling and you make my choice difficult by taking players like Hanappi and Ocwirck

@idmanager very creative and intersting team

I will try to take a decision after France-Argentine
 
Ecstatic said:
Mixed feeling and you make my choice difficult by taking players like Hanappi and Ocwirck

@idmanager very creative and intersting team

I will try to take a decision after France-Argentine
Click to expand...
The vote will end before the game does
 
Indnyc said:
Thanks for the Tag. I have been reading through the discussion and finding it very difficult to vote. Both teams are well set up. Brownie points to you for trying something different.
Click to expand...

Cheers mate.
 
idmanager said:
Actually you are not. Most football historians would do the same considering Spencer's all round game and his ability to carry teams on his own. He is the all time highest scorer in Copa Libertadoes, the UCL version of South America. He's won 2 Intercontinental cups as well beating Gento's Real Madrid.

Maybe in the draft community here considering the lack of outings he got.

That is down to him never moving to Europe or having a world cup outing considering he is from Ecuador. In the modern premier league, I think he would have broken all kind of records. Almost an amalgamation of Henry and Drogba.
Click to expand...
Is there any data to support it ? Which football historian rate Spencer higher than Riva ?

According to http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html

World Soccer's Selection of the 100 Greatest Footballers of All Time
72. Johan Neeskens (Netherlands)
72. Luigi Riva (Italy)
75. José Nasazzi (Uruguay)
Click to expand...

Guerin' Sportivo's I 50 Grandi del Secolo by Adalberto Bortolott
23.Gunnar Nordahl "Il pompiere del gol"
24.Gigi Riva "L'implacabile Rombo di tuono"
25.Paolo Rossi "Pablito, il reflesso che uccide"
26.Leonidas "La magia del diamante nero"
Click to expand...

Placar's 100 Craques do Século
31.Ruud Dil GULLIT (Netherlands)
32.FRITZ WALTER (Germany)
33.Luigi RIVA (Italy)
Click to expand...

Neither of these lists have Spencer.
Not saying these lists are anything definitive or anything but with the conviction you are saying it seem like a forgone thing that Spencer is better which is not true at all. Most importantly Spencer is handled very well in my defense, with two of the best CBs in air defending against him.

idmanager said:
Mate, I'll recommend you to google a bit about the great Wunderteam which he anchored. He was literally playing the Makelele role with a Redondo-esque touch to it with his quick initiating of attacks.

How many DMs pre war do we remember? Monti, Smistik, J Andrade and that is about it. And all were part of great team with almost being the single sheild ahead of the defence most times. They had to be special to be thethe very few to be remembered even now. They should not be considered nuts if not GOATs.

I am getting a hair cut or else would have hooked you up with some article. But I would ask you to read the OP about Smistik and maybe google him and the wunder team formation a bit.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Same here for Smistik, he played the exact same role as Hanappi for Austria, a wing half who also played as defender some time. Also Hanappi was chosen ahead of him when voting for Austria's golden player of century were done.

idmanager said:
And everyone should be using liberos in 5-3-2 as well considering most draft winners end up with that. They dont because of lack of liberos and players of that quality.

Similarly wide half backs also need to be of a high quality on both ends to pull something like this off. Not every manager has Andrade and Davids at their disposal.

And if using modern formations is supposed to win brownie points and experimenting with not so popular formations currently is seen as a.negative, that is not in the spirit of imaginative drafting IMO. Sure its not easy to sell them as I have seen in this game, but they should not be dismissed just because they are not in use, especially with the right players for the positions.
Click to expand...
You are not using any ancient formation its fairly modern, there have been many players of the same skills as Davids at least. The problem is nobody uses it because you want your defender's to know who they are checking when off the ball and under attack. You can't just give them instructions like pick whoever you think is more dangerous.
 
Tuppet said:
You are not using any ancient formation its fairly modern, there have been many players of the same skills as Davids at least. The problem is nobody uses it because you want your defender's to know who they are checking when off the ball and under attack. You can't just give them instructions like pick whoever you think is more dangerous.
Click to expand...

You do realize you have just dismissed Zonal marking as a way of defending in 1 line? :lol:
 
Nice list Tuppet. Riva really must have been something to be ranked above Muller :lol:

23.Gunnar Nordahl "Il pompiere del gol"
24.Gigi Riva "L'implacabile Rombo di tuono"
25.Paolo Rossi "Pablito, il reflesso che uccide"
26.Leonidas "La magia del diamante nero"
27.Roberto Baggio "Fragile e inditruttibile"
28.Lev Jascin "La leggenda del ragno nero"
29.Didì "Inventò la ``foglia secca''"
30.Paolo Maldini "Un campione predestinato"
31.Stanley Matthews "La leggenda del baronetta"
32.Mumo Orsi "Violinista di tango e di gol"
33.Lothar Matthäus "Provaci ancora, Lothar"
34.Gaetano Scirea "Campione in punta di piedi"
35.Gerd Müller
 
Difficult match to really get your head around given the setups. Ultimately I agree with one of @Tuppet's essential points that @idmanager's setup is a very difficult system to pull off, and the only compelling examples of it had extremely hard working players across that forward three. Matthews and Gento just weren't that. But then I agree that the narrow defensive setup would be very difficult for Tuppet's team to break down. In the end I think idmanager's team would become very imbalanced but would have enough individual quality in the front 4 to make it work. Swap the two sets of wingers and it probably would've been the opposite result for me.
 
I feel everybody's looking at the team and not at the tactic laid out by Idmanager here. The whole strategy seem dependent on that
a) all my players would cut in & legendary wingers like Finney would not be able to cross. So he doesn't need dedicated defenders against them.
b) Surround player with multiple players and hope that Ronaldinho would not be able to beat or find a pass against more than one defender. And that was Dinho's whole thing, he'd beat defenders with much better reputation than Smistik. I wish he had met Davids at some point of his career but unfortunately he did not. But there is plenty proof in the footage that he would be able to find gaps to either score or pass against a packed defense.

 
idmanager said:
Nice list Tuppet. Riva really must have been something to be ranked above Muller :lol:

23.Gunnar Nordahl "Il pompiere del gol"
24.Gigi Riva "L'implacabile Rombo di tuono"
25.Paolo Rossi "Pablito, il reflesso che uccide"
26.Leonidas "La magia del diamante nero"
27.Roberto Baggio "Fragile e inditruttibile"
28.Lev Jascin "La leggenda del ragno nero"
29.Didì "Inventò la ``foglia secca''"
30.Paolo Maldini "Un campione predestinato"
31.Stanley Matthews "La leggenda del baronetta"
32.Mumo Orsi "Violinista di tango e di gol"
33.Lothar Matthäus "Provaci ancora, Lothar"
34.Gaetano Scirea "Campione in punta di piedi"
35.Gerd Müller
Click to expand...
Hey I am not making the list, neither is it fan made. Its from a respected publication and you claimed that most pundits would rank Spencer higher. You got anything to back that claim ?
 
If you think Ronaldinho will enjoy playing against a midfield 3 designed to nullify him in Davids-Smistik-Andrade, I am sorry, you are wrong.

I can't make a better shield in front of that defence.

If anyone is getting ignored, it is Sensini who is supposed to be okay because there are centrebacks to take care of it every time Gento beats him.
 
Brwned said:
Difficult match to really get your head around given the setups. Ultimately I agree with one of @Tuppet's essential points that @idmanager's setup is a very difficult system to pull off, and the only compelling examples of it had extremely hard working players across that forward three. Matthews and Gento just weren't that. But then I agree that the narrow defensive setup would be very difficult for Tuppet's team to break down. In the end I think idmanager's team would become very imbalanced but would have enough individual quality in the front 4 to make it work.
Click to expand...
How about the quality in my front 4 + Masopust ?

That's 3 Ballon D'or winners right there and two legendary players in Riva & Finney. They have enough individual quality to do something special ?
 
Tuppet said:
Hey I am not making the list, neither is it fan made. Its from a respected publication and you claimed that most pundits would rank Spencer higher. You got anything to back that claim ?
Click to expand...

Sure, sounds like a stone head putting Riva ahead of Matthaus, Didi and Muller :lol:

I dont have a list handy to be honest and its based of what I have read in general of the strikers.
 
idmanager said:
If you think Ronaldinho will enjoy playing against a midfield 3 designed to nullify him in Davids-Smistik-Andrade, I am sorry, you are wrong.
Click to expand...

Surely you could communicate your points a bit more gracefully...
 
idmanager said:
Nice list Tuppet. Riva really must have been something to be ranked above Muller :lol:

23.Gunnar Nordahl "Il pompiere del gol"
24.Gigi Riva "L'implacabile Rombo di tuono"
25.Paolo Rossi "Pablito, il reflesso che uccide"
26.Leonidas "La magia del diamante nero"
27.Roberto Baggio "Fragile e inditruttibile"
28.Lev Jascin "La leggenda del ragno nero"
29.Didì "Inventò la ``foglia secca''"
30.Paolo Maldini "Un campione predestinato"
31.Stanley Matthews "La leggenda del baronetta"
32.Mumo Orsi "Violinista di tango e di gol"
33.Lothar Matthäus "Provaci ancora, Lothar"
34.Gaetano Scirea "Campione in punta di piedi"
35.Gerd Müller
Click to expand...
He did say that he wasn't saying the lists were definitive? (just pointing out how Riva was thought of).
 
idmanager said:
If you think Ronaldinho will enjoy playing against a midfield 3 designed to nullify him in Davids-Smistik-Andrade, I am sorry, you are wrong.

I can't make a better shield in front of that defence.

If anyone is getting ignored, it is Sensini who is supposed to be okay because there are centrebacks to take care of it every time Gento beats him.
Click to expand...
Man ! this is just incredible at least I have a player to defend against him. You have noone defending against Finney & Blokhin. I mean your magical formation is both 3 DMs nullifying the Ronaldinho and those same DMs working against Finney & Blokhin.
 
Tuppet said:
Man ! this is just incredible at least I have a player to defend against him. You have noone defending against Finney & Blokhin. I mean your magical formation is both 3 DMs nullifying the Ronaldinho and those same DMs working against Finney & Blokhin.
Click to expand...

Well, I am not man marking. Its not a 4-2-3-1.
I have been harping that throughout the game but then the same gets asked again which made me make that earlier post a bit not so nicely.
 
Tuppet said:
How about the quality in my front 4 + Masopust ?

That's 3 Ballon D'or winners right there and two legendary players in Riva & Finney. They have enough individual quality to do something special ?
Click to expand...

Yes absolutely. I prefer your front four overall - one of the best around. But I do think his back 6 is well designed to suffocate them. What I meant was that I think his front 4 will be completely cut off from the back 6, which isn't how the team was suggested. But I think that wouldn't be catastrophic. Your defence wouldn't give much away at all but I think he'd just about edge it.
 
I have realized one thing.
Never use zonal marking sort of systems in the drafts on Caf.
Way too static a thinking that x needs to mark y, a needs to mark b,...or else you lose.
 
idmanager said:
Well, I am not man marking. Its not a 4-2-3-1.
I have been harping that throughout the game but then the same gets asked again which made me make that earlier post a bit not so nicely.
Click to expand...
I mean fine, if you believe that and other people do as well. I honestly don't think that this would ever work, like its beyond this draft game, you're really claiming here that 1 player in Davids can take care of two players like Finney & Dinho. I have asked you before how do you think defending would work when my team is attacking. If Ronaldinho has ball and Finney & Blokhin are making runs, making them available for pass then who do Davids & Andrade defend against and you keep saying whoever has the ball or something like that and thats just never works. In very basic football even they tell defenders not to get sucked in to the players who has ball and check unmarked player in your zone. You might not be doing man marking but neither are you playing zonal.
 
Brwned said:
Yes absolutely. I prefer your front four overall - one of the best around. But I do think his back 6 is well designed to suffocate them. What I meant was that I think his front 4 will be completely cut off from the back 6, which isn't how the team was suggested. But I think that wouldn't be catastrophic. Your defence wouldn't give much away at all but I think he'd just about edge it.
Click to expand...
Funny, I thought same thing (from ID comments about midfielders aims).

If it was a different front four, then maybe they could cope by themselves. All decent players, just not sure this four could not only work alone but outscore however many Tuppets team score.
 
idmanager said:
I have realized one thing.
Never use zonal marking sort of systems in the drafts on Caf.
Way too static a thinking that x needs to mark y, a needs to mark b,...or else you lose.
Click to expand...
Again you are not playing zonal either because you are also claiming Davids & Andrade are playing in two zones.
 
Tuppet said:
I mean fine, if you believe that and other people do as well. I honestly don't think that this would ever work, like its beyond this draft game, you're really claiming here that 1 player in Davids can take care of two players like Finney & Dinho. I have asked you before how do you think defending would work when my team is attacking. If Ronaldinho has ball and Finney & Blokhin are making runs, making them available for pass then who do Davids & Andrade defend against and you keep saying whoever has the ball or something like that and thats just never works. In very basic football even they tell defenders not to get sucked in to the players who has ball and check unmarked player in your zone. You might not be doing man marking but neither are you playing zonal.
Click to expand...

Am sure some told the same about LVG's system in 1995 before he ended up winning the UCL
 
Tuppet said:
Again you are not playing zonal either because you are also claiming Davids & Andrade are playing in two zones.
Click to expand...

The zone being the left and left central areas / right and right central areas.
You dont want to put it beyond DM for obvious reasons.
There are 3 of them there.
 
idmanager said:
Yea, the zone being the left and left central areas / right and right central areas.
You dont want to put it beyond DM for obvious reasons.
There are 3 of them there.
Click to expand...
You really can't make up zones like that, you can not decide that the whole defensive third is one zone and there is one player there so hey zonal marking ! The DM zone and the fullback zone are two different areas of the pitch and it would be confusing for any player to be told that he has to defend in both. If you think you are playing in between those two areas, then again can you tell me who are Andrade & Davids defending against when we are attacking ? Is it Ronaldinho or is it Blokhin/Finney ?
 
Tuppet said:
You really can't make up zones like that, you can not decide that the whole defensive third is one zone and there is one player there so hey zonal marking ! The DM zone and the fullback zone are two different areas of the pitch and it would be confusing for any player to be told that he has to defend in both. If you think you are playing in between those two areas, then again can you tell me who are Andrade & Davids defending against when we are attacking ? Is it Ronaldinho or is it Blokhin/Finney ?
Click to expand...

See, again. He is not in the DM zone. Smistik is there.
He is in the wing+DM corridor.

And it not correct IMO to say either everyone man marks or everyone is zonal.
That is not how support casts work IMO. Players help each other out and some in more areas than one.
 
idmanager said:
See, again. He is not in the DM zone. Smistik is there.
He is in the wing+DM corridor.

And it not correct IMO to say either everyone man marks or everyone is zonal.
That is not how support casts work IMO. Players help each other out and some in more areas than one.
Click to expand...
Yes thank you ! that clarifies things. But that does mean that Smistik is mostly defending against Dinho alone, and once again IMO he has no hope to win that battle. Your tactic might have worked against say 3-5-2 sort of thing where there is no width but my wingers would stretch your defensive midfielders and isolate the one defensive midfielder against Dinho time & again.
 
Tuppet said:
Yes thank you ! that clarifies things. But that does mean that Smistik is mostly defending against Dinho alone, and once again IMO he has no hope to win that battle. Your tactic might have worked against say 3-5-2 sort of thing where there is no width but my wingers would stretch your defensive midfielders and isolate the one defensive midfielder against Dinho time & again.
Click to expand...

Alone? That is what you get from that? :wenger::lol:
You make is look like Dinho is playing in a straight line from the kick off point to centre of the goal. That is not how it works.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.