Then I don't see the issue at all, if you watch the game you can see him doing his defensive duties. Infact he played alongside Ocwirk throughout his career who is very similar to Masopust.
The Impossible Draft R1 - idmanager vs Tuppet
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I agree and I feel the same for Ronaldinho putting a MOTM performance if we win.
I disagree on the Ronaldinho part to be honest.
He is up against a well organized setup with multiple players blocking his way which would not give him too much time and space.
While Gento has a free run at Sensini without too much support.
When Hanappi played in the midfield, there was always another DM who could cover. He was not an out and out DM. In fact, Hanappi played even ahead of Ocwirk when in midfield.
Yours is anything but a well organized setup mate. If you are saying Davids and Smistik are defending against him and leaving Finney free on the left side then there is no way you can stop him from picking a pass to Finney. You don't deny the passing by surround the player with the ball, you deny by cutting the passing options by checking the free players.
Lets say Davids is defending against Dinho and he passes to Finney, what does Davids do ? Does he run back to Finney and stop him. This seem like he would be doing a lot of running in the field.
Here's Ronaldinho, surrounded by a defensive team, 3 excellent defenders in correct positions and backed by probably the best GK in world at that time and he still finds a route to the goal.
I have already explained this. You leave out Andrade from the equation quite smartly but incorrectly.
Gento vs Sensini is the biggest mismatch in the game, imo, but Passarella and Campbell in the centre somehow compensate it.
A close 2:3 with Riva scoring the winner from Finney's cross.
A close 2:3 with Riva scoring the winner from Finney's cross.
I also left out Blokhin from the equation. Not smart just lazy, but I mentioned this before I am only using left side as example the same applies your right side as well.
So Gento crossing to Spencer's head is the only route you see from the mismatch? Fair enough.
I'll just leave this Gento compilation here since he seems to have been reduced to Antonio Valencia levels.
Will continue the discussion tomorrow morning. Good game so far.
Will continue the discussion tomorrow morning. Good game so far.
Obviously not, but beating Sensini and crossing would be his main contribution. What do you expect of him?
His goalscoring wasn't top notch, even though he scored lots in his prolonged career. Somewhat like Giggs.
Puskas said:
Ok cool, I am gonna stop trying to guess your tactic and take your word for it. Based on what you are saying Davids is playing as a wingback / fullback since he is checking the run of my winger and Andrade is supporting Smistik in the midfield.
Based on this
a) I don't think that's a good use of Davids talent at all while he can certainly do it, I think its a bigger problem than say Hanappi, as Davids is playing a role that I don't think he ever played.
b) It still leaves Blokhin, so when Dinho has the ball Andrade and Smistik are defending against him and Davids is blocking pass to Finney, Dinho is just going to pick Blokhin and there is also Masopust on that side making a run.
@idmanager are you playing mostly on the counter? Maybe I misunderstand but something seems a little Simeone-esque about your tactic?
Think Andrade is pretty ok in that formation to be honest. He has played either side of the defence, as a DM and also in midfield from what I've read about him. As long as you don't expect him to provide width in attack or be vital in the build up he's perfectly suitable for that role. His energy and covering is well needed in the defensive phase and with Matthews ahead of him he's more of a holding midfielder or a pivot that would cover wide.
It requires a bit of imagination but to me considering his qualities, versatility and actually playing in that zone I don't mind it.
Zebec as well could play a LCB, so stylistically it isn't that much of an issue having B2B Davids in front of him.
The only question mark in that formation is Smistik, who if I'm honest have no clue what type of player he was or what qualities he had..
Lovely set-up @idmanager. The trio of Gento, Matthews and Spencer is a hell of a traditional attacking unit. Both wingers should have the beating of their man from time to time. Can also see Cubillas having a good game with his direct running and ball-carrying style causing some issues in front of Tuppet's defence. Very clean fit for all players in roles they can do well. On the other side, Tuppet has drafted typically well with quality across the park.
I sort of agree with @Edgar Allan Pillow and @Tuppet line of reasoning and think that a 4-2-3-1 would have been better for @idmanager team. Without any fullbacks I don't see Tuppet's team getting stopped here. Tom Finney was a great winger and I think that he need a full time defender dealing with him instead of Davids trying to quash two attackers. Both great teams btw, sad that they have to meet so early.
It doesn't look that dissimilar from this set-up:
Obviously there are differences, but he had some fairly significant flank covering responsibilities with De Boer in that CL-winning side.
Yeah I actually called out that LVG's Ajax is the only set up that played similar to the Idmanager's formation in real life. However It was still pretty susceptible against wingplay. But most importantly it was built by some very hard working wingers who would track their counterparts as well. And you would also need someone as good as Rijkaard in the base to make it work. You wouldn't really associate Matthews and Gento with that kind of game.It doesn't look that dissimilar from this set-up:
Obviously there are differences, but he had some fairly significant flank covering responsibilities with De Boer in that CL-winning side.
From the article - https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ajax-1995/
This is just the anti-thesis of what Matthews was all about.
Yes. The team is setup in a direct attacking setup originating from keeping it tight at the back.
It only looks like that on paper. The philosophy behind LVGs Ajax was very different. You wouldn’t have an Andrade in place of Seedorf in that team. The wide centre backs were expected to join the attack and build up as well in that. Apart from the oooks, the actual philosophy is not even close.
No better way to sum up my setup in general.
Yes 4-2-3-1 was possible too but this setup offers way more cover to nullify the opposition.
Of course, when David’s and Andrade’s role and position is being questioned, it couldn’t have ended well for me. Funny because I couldn’t think of better players for these roles.
So without the ball is it a 523? With Davids in the left wing back position and Andrade right wing back with Cubillas dropping to CM with Gento and Matthews staying high and wide?
I wouldnt call them wing backs. They wont be static horizontally. Based on the phases of the game, they would close down both out wide and left/right central areas. It is a hybrid role if people try to look past how can one person do two jobs at once when that is not how it described
To be fair there are other examples such as Cruyff's 343, Bielsa's teams or Chile more recently who have played with similar set-ups. I wouldn't cast it in stone that every back three has to have traditional wing-backs to work. It is possible under the right circumstances to make the 3313 or 3133 or 3331 work. And if we're questioning the wide bits of the system, you can't ask for better players than Davids and Victor Andrade to play those left and right half roles. Zebec and Forster too as wide centre-halves are a great fit.
Yeah I get they aren't traditional wing-backs I was just trying to visualise the positioning without the ball and defensively organised. Davids and Seedorf moved into those wing-back positons (not role) for Ajax under LVG IIRC
Yes they did. But the difference being LVG put way more emphasis on attacking football which meant they had to contribute a lot more in the attacking phase of the game as well. I don’t expect David’s or Andrade to bomb forward so often as in LVG’s system considering the attack I have, I only need to link the midfield to the attack to initiate moves and I have plenty of options for that. in short David’s and Andrade have way more defensive emphasis here. No one could argue about their credentials for the same.
That makes entire sense.
Btw, thanks for the explanation mate. Didn’t want to reply to comments made without reading the OP.
Sorry mate didn’t read past that.
I quite like Idmanagers set up. The narrow block seems to me to be a decent set up with the players he has.
The only problem I have is not knowing how to rank Smistik. Sure he'll get help from Andrade and Davids, but they'll have there own defensive duties to carry out tracking wide players so can't lend full support in the middle at all times. A more renowned DM in there and I'd say it was an easy vote, as it is at the moment I can't establish how much joy Ronaldinho would get in that position so it's hard to call.
The only problem I have is not knowing how to rank Smistik. Sure he'll get help from Andrade and Davids, but they'll have there own defensive duties to carry out tracking wide players so can't lend full support in the middle at all times. A more renowned DM in there and I'd say it was an easy vote, as it is at the moment I can't establish how much joy Ronaldinho would get in that position so it's hard to call.
Mate, I'll recommend you to google a bit about the great Wunderteam which he anchored. He was literally playing the Makelele role with a Redondo-esque touch to it with his quick initiating of attacks.
How many DMs pre war do we remember? Monti, Smistik, J Andrade and that is about it. And all were part of great team with almost being the single sheild ahead of the defence most times. They had to be special to be thethe very few to be remembered even now. They should not be considered nuts if not GOATs.
I am getting a hair cut or else would have hooked you up with some article. But I would ask you to read the OP about Smistik and maybe google him and the wunder team formation a bit.
Cheers.
I am not sure how to equate players from these super hardworking and quick passing setups with Matthews & Gento.
It seem like a magical formation which is immune to central attack because of 3 defensive midfielders and wide attack because of two of those 3 DMs are also stopping the wingers and can still field 4 purely attacking players. In theory you'd think that lack of wide defenders would mean that wing attack should be the weakness of the team. But then an all time legendary winger in Finney & a ballon d'or winner Blokhin can not exploit the set up. Or you'd imagine if the DMs are busy defending wide areas it would leave the central DM 1 on 1 too many times with opposing AM, but one of the best AM in the draft Ronaldinho and Ballon Do'r winner Masopust is not being able to exploit that.
And if thats the case then everyone in the world football should be using this formation, and yet you would find that pretty much every modern tactic uses a fullback/wingback. I would say the reason is mostly that you need a very hard working and talented group of player, who would defend collectively and press from front for such a setup to work. But even then its very vulnerable setup to wide play. It might again work against some of the teams even, but in the draft games where super attacks are assembled I don't see it working at all. Davids has to choose whom to defend against and then defend from either Ronaldinho and Finney while Andrade has same problem with Ronaldinho and Blokhin. I honestly don't see a way in which this would work coherently.
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And everyone should be using liberos in 5-3-2 as well considering most draft winners end up with that. They dont because of lack of liberos and players of that quality.
Similarly wide half backs also need to be of a high quality on both ends to pull something like this off. Not every manager has Andrade and Davids at their disposal.
And if using modern formations is supposed to win brownie points and experimenting with not so popular formations currently is seen as a.negative, that is not in the spirit of imaginative drafting IMO. Sure its not easy to sell them as I have seen in this game, but they should not be dismissed just because they are not in use, especially with the right players for the positions.
Very tight to separate.
Usually I love tuppet’s sides and this one is also great but I feel Idmanager has a bit more quality over the park and age to vs Sensini is a big advantage to him.
I’m probably one of the few as well who rates Spencer very high and above Riva in terms of stature.
With Cubillas, Gento and Matthews as providers I can see his front four working pretty well and grab the winner here in extra time.
Pity one of the best sides from the first round has to be eliminated really.
Usually I love tuppet’s sides and this one is also great but I feel Idmanager has a bit more quality over the park and age to vs Sensini is a big advantage to him.
I’m probably one of the few as well who rates Spencer very high and above Riva in terms of stature.
With Cubillas, Gento and Matthews as providers I can see his front four working pretty well and grab the winner here in extra time.
Pity one of the best sides from the first round has to be eliminated really.
Actually you are not. Most football historians would do the same considering Spencer's all round game and his ability to carry teams on his own. He is the all time highest scorer in Copa Libertadoes, the UCL version of South America. He's won 2 Intercontinental cups as well beating Gento's Real Madrid.
Maybe in the draft community here considering the lack of outings he got.
That is down to him never moving to Europe or having a world cup outing considering he is from Ecuador. In the modern premier league, I think he would have broken all kind of records. Almost an amalgamation of Henry and Drogba.
Looking forward to your descriptions
I'm not sure whom I rate higher, probably have them about the same level, but you definitely can't say that Spencer is ahead of Riva in terms of carrying teams on his own — I mean Riva won a Serie A title with fecking Cagliari!
Looking forward to your descriptions
I'm not sure whom I rate higher, probably have them about the same level, but you definitely can't say that Spencer is ahead of Riva in terms of carrying teams on his own — I mean Riva won a Serie A title with fecking Cagliari!
If I didn't know better I'd have been sure you are Tuppet's AM
And Riva did have international stars like Boninsegna alongside him. I wouldn't call it single handedly where as Penarol hardly had anyone who is remembered today. I do think Spencer had a bit more to his game though. As I said about the amalgamation part
@harms what do you think of Hanappi in there as the DM. You think him and Masopust is sound defesively to take care of Cubillas with neither having played without a DM alongside them?
You shouldn't have attacked FinneyIf I didn't know better I'd have been sure you are Tuppet's AM
Re: Hanappi
From what I've read about him, he should be alright. It's not an ideal partnership, you'd definitely want a more defensive partner next to Masopust (especially with the abundance of creativity up front), but seeing as he played in pretty much every position including CB, FB and DM... If you begin to criticise him, you can start criticising Zebec, for example, which you obviously shouldn't do. That's why I try not to pick pre-footage players if possible tbf.