The History Thread

Cheimoon said:
For those kinds of things, it's often very helpful to get a good sense of geological developments. The modern map hides a lot of old topography and makes a lot of historical things look much weirder than they really were.

I think geological change is a really underrated consideration for early human history.
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This sort of thing is a really interesting to consider even when talking about more recent events.

For example, I have a friend whose area of study is the 100 years war and he has a particular interest in the Battle of Neville's Cross which happened near where I live. In the scholarship there's some confusion and debate about some of the decisions the Scots made prior to that battle. They were approaching Durham south-east down the then main road, got within site of the city but suddenly turned west to camp at Beaurepaire Priory, which gave the English army a chance to march up before they could take Durham City and beat them in battle. In turn that blunted Scotland's aspirations and allowed the English to focus on the war in France rather than fighting on two fronts. From a modern perspective it seems like there must have been some factor which compelled the Scots to turn back on themselves, because if camping at the Priory was their intention all along they'd just have marched straight there. There's a lot of conjecture as to what that factor could have been and the guess of most is that it was just a bad tactical decision made in panic when they realised the English were coming.

But I think it makes more sense when you take into account that the climate back then was warmer and wetter. The ground between that main road and the priory was a riverbed prior to the last ice age and it's low-lying and boggy to this day (I walk it pretty often), so it's likely that back then it wouldnt have been desirable, or even possible, to march 12,000 men through it in the middle of October. Accordingly, the Priory would have been a much more defensible position than it is today so a much more desirable camp, and in order to reach it on flattish, dry ground you'd likely have to take the exact route the Scots did.

With that in mind, it seems entirely plausible that approaching via that route to use the Priory as a camp was the plan all along, and that they likely didn't know the English were en route until they'd already settled in. It's conjecture, but taking into account the terrain as it was in 1346 rather than as it is now could completely change our understanding of why that battle played out how it did. It goes from being an inexplicable tactical blunder to being a case of exceptionally bad luck (or a failure of Scottish scouting/credit to the speed the English managed to get up there).
 
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jeff_goldblum said:
This sort of thing is a really interesting to consider even when talking about more recent events.

For example, I have a friend whose area of study is the 100 years war and he has a particular interest in the Battle of Neville's Cross which happened near where I live. In the scholarship there's some confusion and debate about some of the decisions the Scots made prior to that battle. They were approaching Durham south-east down the then main road, got within site of the city but suddenly turned west to camp at Beaurepaire Priory, which gave the English army a chance to march up before they could take Durham City and beat them in battle. In turn that blunted Scotland's aspirations and allowed the English to focus on the war in France rather than fighting on two fronts. From a modern perspective it seems like there must have been some factor which compelled the Scots to turn back on themselves, because if camping at the Priory was their intention all along they'd just have marched straight there. There's a lot of conjecture as to what that factor could have been and the guess of most is that it was just a bad tactical decision made in panic when they realised the English were coming.

But I think it makes more sense when you take into account that the climate back then was warmer and wetter. The ground between that main road and the priory was a riverbed prior to the last ice age and it's low-lying and boggy to this day (I walk it pretty often), so it's likely that back then it wouldnt have been desirable, or even possible, to march 12,000 men through it in the middle of October. Accordingly, the Priory would have been a much more defensible position than it is today so a much more desirable camp, and in order to reach it on flattish, dry ground you'd likely have to take the exact route the Scots did.

With that in mind, it seems entirely plausible that approaching via that route to use the Priory as a camp was the plan all along, and that they likely didn't know the English were en route until they'd already settled in. It's conjecture, but taking into account the terrain as it was in 1346 rather than as it is now could completely change our understanding of why that battle played out how it did. It goes from being an inexplicable tactical blunder to being a case of exceptionally bad luck (or a failure of Scottish scouting/credit to the speed the English managed to get up there).
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Yeah, that's fascinating stuff!

I guess where I was coming from is that in a lot of the history I used to study (eastern Mediterranean ca. 1500-500 BCE), geography is really underconsidered. All the same, a lot of dynamics can be explained by a simple look at a topographical map and some understanding of what people back then knew about their landscape and what they were capable of technologically. (Also in terms of seafaring.)
 
This is pretty cool. I have been reading about pre-Columbine America recently, and it's been fascinating to learn more about the many societies and polities that were there. (Something I never knew much about.)
Nature Briefing said:
Laser mapping reveals Maya monuments

Scientists have uncovered nearly 500 ancient monuments in southern Mexico using an airborne laser mapping technology called lidar. Dating as far back as 3,000 years ago, the buried structures include huge artificial plateaus, built by the Olmec and Maya civilizations, that might have been used for ceremonial gatherings. “The sheer number of sites they found is staggering,” says archaeologist Thomas Garrison. “The study is going to be the inspiration for hopefully decades of research at these different settlements.”
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Full article: https://www.science.org/content/art...uments-revealed-laser-mapping-many-first-time
 
hungrywing said:
That sh!t be years old....you've read this, right? (if not, you are in for a treat, madam/sir)
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Not exactly. Did you read the article I referred to? Here are the first few paragraphs, explaining what is new and how this works links to previous work:
The team’s effort stemmed from its smaller scale lidar survey and excavation of the oldest and largest Maya structure ever found, reported in Nature last year. The ancient Maya civilization occupied southern Mexico and parts of Central America and is renowned for its striking pyramids, written language, and calendar system. That site, dubbed Aguada Fénix, was dated to 1000 to 800 B.C.E., and contained an artificial plateau 1400 meters long and up to 15 meters high. This plateau had 10 smaller platforms flanking either side for a total of 20—the basis for many Mesoamerican cultures’ number system.

The number 20 is also important in the Mesoamerican cosmology and calendar, and the same pattern of a large plateau flanked by smaller platforms appears at other sites in the immediate region, suggesting a wider cultural pattern. The team wanted to see how common the arrangement was across an even wider area. But lidar studies can be pricey.

So, the researchers utilized publicly available lidar data already collected by the Mexican government to survey roughly 84,500 square kilometers. Such data typically aren’t used for archeology because of the low resolution—lidar produces images at a 5-meter scale rather than the 1-meter or even 50-centimeter scale typical in archeological surveys. However, the researchers were able to compare the government data with higher resolution maps at certain sites, and also visited some of the revealed structures by foot.

The analysis resulted in the discovery of 478 formal complexes—many new to science—the team reports today in Nature Human Behaviour. Several of these monuments had the same layout as Aguada Fénix, including an even more ancient Olmec site in San Lorenzo. Researchers continue to argue over whether the Olmec, which predate the Maya, are more of a mother or sister culture to them. The researchers estimate these Olmec and Maya complexes were built between 1100 and 400 B.C.E., and would have been used for ceremonial gatherings.
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Edit: also, the book you are referring to was about a lidar survey in easter Honduras, while the project 'my' article talks about is in southeastern Mexico. I know lidar is not know - it's been used elsewhere as well. But this particular discovery is.
 
Cheimoon said:
Not exactly. Did you read the article I referred to? Here are the first few paragraphs, explaining what is new and how this works links to previous work:
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I did. Sorry; when I saw *what* you'd studied, I assumed that you'd have come across the LiDAR thing - and the 'many more societies' thing - much earlier.

I've been told that there are a lot of things like this going on (another specific one, which is just getting started and which I don't have a link to, is a Siberian/Mongolian project); are there ones for the region that you studied? (I would again assume - sorry - that the region in question is so well-documented that no such effort is necessary?)

Also, I think you might like this book.
 
hungrywing said:
I did. Sorry; when I saw *what* you'd studied, I assumed that you'd have come across the LiDAR thing - and the 'many more societies' thing - much earlier.

I've been told that there are a lot of things like this going on (another specific one, which is just getting started and which I don't have a link to, is a Siberian/Mongolian project); are there ones for the region that you studied? (I would again assume - sorry - that the region in question is so well-documented that no such effort is necessary?)

Also, I think you might like this book.
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No worries, I actually didn't read the article that well myself either until your post. :lol:

Actually, it would make a lot of sense to use lidar surveys for Iraq and Syria especially (and elsewhere, but that came to my mind first). It's sometimes said that almost every hill in the general Tigris/Euphrates area might contain an ancient town, but obviously digging them all up would be impossible (and insane). I don't know how deep lidar goes, but in theory, it sounds like a great way to identify key sites to investigate next. (If only they could find the Hurrian capital of Washukanni that way... - if it's not just at Tell Fekheriye or another already known site, of course.)

I've been out of the field for a few years now though, so maybe they're doing it already. I do think they've used lidary already in Egypt and/or some Roman sites - although I see in Egypt there arehas also been infra-red satellite mapping, so maybe I'm confusing both methods in my memory.

That does sound like an interesting book - thanks for the reference! Interestingly, I am reading Charles Mann's 1493 right now (still - I'm not going fast these days), and its major focus is globalization as well. Good timing!
 
Cheimoon said:
No worries, I actually didn't read the article that well myself either until your post. :lol:

Actually, it would make a lot of sense to use lidar surveys for Iraq and Syria especially (and elsewhere, but that came to my mind first). It's sometimes said that almost every hill in the general Tigris/Euphrates area might contain an ancient town, but obviously digging them all up would be impossible (and insane). I don't know how deep lidar goes, but in theory, it sounds like a great way to identify key sites to investigate next. (If only they could find the Hurrian capital of Washukanni that way... - if it's not just at Tell Fekheriye or another already known site, of course.)

I've been out of the field for a few years now though, so maybe they're doing it already. I do think they've used lidary already in Egypt and/or some Roman sites - although I see in Egypt there arehas also been infra-red satellite mapping, so maybe I'm confusing both methods in my memory.

That does sound like an interesting book - thanks for the reference! Interestingly, I am reading Charles Mann's 1493 right now (still - I'm not going fast these days), and its major focus is globalization as well. Good timing!
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I looked up the bolded part; was it a large city? What was the general population size of the states in that area at that time?

Regarding the book, there are sections regarding food from the area and time (sort of) you mentioned, which reminded me of it. I also added 1493 to the reading list.
 
hungrywing said:
I looked up the bolded part; was it a large city? What was the general population size of the states in that area at that time?

Regarding the book, there are sections regarding food from the area and time (sort of) you mentioned, which reminded me of it. I also added 1493 to the reading list.
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Remember to read his 1491 book first then. ;-) Although I suppose they can be read separately; but as a layman on American history, I found 1491 absolutely fascinating.

Not a lot is known about Washukanni. Based on the peak power and general cultural influence (especially on the Hittites) of the Hurrians, you have to assume it was substantial at its peak; but no-one knowns until it's been found. The Hurrians are a bit of mystery in general (despite everything that's gradually become known over time).
 
Cheimoon said:
Remember to read his 1491 book first then. ;-) Although I suppose they can be read separately; but as a layman on American history, I found 1491 absolutely fascinating.

Not a lot is known about Washukanni. Based on the peak power and general cultural influence (especially on the Hittites) of the Hurrians, you have to assume it was substantial at its peak; but no-one knowns until it's been found. The Hurrians are a bit of mystery in general (despite everything that's gradually become known over time).
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I will. Thank you.

...For the moment, the Hurrians and their language remain one of the most enigmatic cultures of the ancient world, as here summarised succinctly by the historian Professor Holger Gzellar, "the origin of the Hurrians…is unknown...
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via here for any curious onlookers

Holy shit they're aliens.
 
hungrywing said:
I will. Thank you.



via here for any curious onlookers

Holy shit they're aliens.
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That looks like a pretty good high-level summary of Hurrian history.

One fascinating tidbit: the Greek Hesiodic Theogony describes how there was a succession of divine rules, finishing with Zeus who had defeated his father, Kronos. It appears that the general narrative that structure this story was not Greek originally, but inspired by Anatolian traditions - known to us through the Hittite Song of Beginning (also known as Kingship in Heaven or the Song of Ullikummi). But a key figure in that Hittite story is Kumarbi, who is a Hurrian god who had no role in Hittite religion, and the assumption is that the Hittites themselves got the story from the Hurrians. (The Hittites had a practice of incorporating any and all religious practices they encountered into their own.)

So, this very well-known story from Hesiod most likely has a Hurrian origin. That's your aliens for you!
 
The Artefactporn sub on Reddit is fascinating, love watching all the ancient artefacts. With that being said...

 
esmufc07 said:
Perfectly preserved dinosaur embryo found in China https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59748281
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That's been a fascinating story. Really interesting how science keeps learning that dinosaurs are really a lot like birds - as confirmed now again by the way this embryo was positioned inside its egg. (I.e., much like a bird, not like other bird-laying animals.) Dinosaur depictions are often still like they were 20 years ago, but once illustrators really start working with all these new findings, our kids' image of dinosaurs will be very different from ours. (No more naked skin or single colours!)
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-59808883


Egyptian pharaoh's mummy digitally unwrapped for first time


The mummified body of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh has been studied for the first time in millennia after being digitally "unwrapped".
The mummy of Amenhotep I, who ruled from 1525 to 1504 BC, was found at a site in Deir el-Bahari 140 years ago.
But archaeologists have refrained from opening it in order to preserve the exquisite face mask and bandages.

Fascinating.
 
Birthplaces of Ottoman Grand Viziers (responsible to varying degrees for the administration of the Empire) according to modern-day states:

FH3hK-sXoAU742_
 
2cents said:
Birthplaces of Ottoman Grand Viziers (responsible to varying degrees for the administration of the Empire) according to modern-day states:

FH3hK-sXoAU742_
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How come Albania is overrepresented like that?
 
Cheimoon said:
How come Albania is overrepresented like that?
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I don’t know. At a guess, it may have something to do with patronage networks between the court in Istanbul and the Bektashi Sufi order, which I believe was largely responsible for the conversion of most Albanians to Islam and maintained a strong presence in Albania.

What is equally interesting is the lack of viziers originating from Arab lands.
 
2cents said:
I don’t know. At a guess, it may have something to do with patronage networks between the court in Istanbul and the Bektashi Sufi order, which I believe was largely responsible for the conversion of most Albanians to Islam and maintained a strong presence in Albania.

What is equally interesting is the lack of viziers originating from Arab lands.
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Yeah, true. I was only looking at the high numbers, but that's striking as well.

Another period of history of which I know far too little and will one day read a good overview. :)
 
Cheimoon said:
Yeah, true. I was only looking at the high numbers, but that's striking as well.

Another period of history of which I know far too little and will one day read a good overview. :)
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VorZakone said:
Also lots of Georgians?
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Thinking about it a bit more, I’d say the explanation for both the Albanian and Arab numbers, and also the Georgian numbers, may lie with the Devshirme system, by which Christian children were forcibly recruited and converted to Islam in order to provide much of the administrative and military (via the Janissaries) manpower for the Empire. These children typically had their origins from among Christian communities in the Caucasus, Anatolia, and the Balkans, particularly Georgia. Conversely, the Devshirme did not draw any significant manpower from the Arab lands. The Janissaries were known to maintain strong links with the Bektashi order.

Although the recruits were essentially a type of slave soldier/administrator, they were an extremely powerful element of the Ottoman ruling system, at times able to make and break those in power, and even provide candidates from their own ranks for the top jobs.
 
2cents said:
Thinking about it a bit more, I’d say the explanation for both the Albanian and Arab numbers, and also the Georgian numbers, may lie with the Devshirme system, by which Christian children were forcibly recruited and converted to Islam in order to provide much of the administrative and military (via the Janissaries) manpower for the Empire. These children typically had their origins from among Christian communities in the Caucasus, Anatolia, and the Balkans, particularly Georgia. Conversely, the Devshirme did not draw any significant manpower from the Arab lands. The Janissaries were known to maintain strong links with the Bektashi order.

Although the recruits were essentially a type of slave soldier/administrator, they were an extremely powerful element of the Ottoman ruling system, at times able to make and break those in power, and even provide candidates from their own ranks for the top jobs.
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Thanks for that!
 
2cents said:
I don’t know. At a guess, it may have something to do with patronage networks between the court in Istanbul and the Bektashi Sufi order, which I believe was largely responsible for the conversion of most Albanians to Islam and maintained a strong presence in Albania.

What is equally interesting is the lack of viziers originating from Arab lands.
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I get the impression that, aside from the prestige associated with holding the holy cities, the Arab lands were a largely irrelevant backwater for the Ottomans. It was all about Anatolia and Rumelia (the European territories). The number of Georgians is surprising though.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I get the impression that, aside from the prestige associated with holding the holy cities, the Arab lands were a largely irrelevant backwater for the Ottomans. It was all about Anatolia and Rumelia (the European territories). The number of Georgians is surprising though.
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Weren't Georgians also heavily represented among Mamluks? I remember something like that.
 
VorZakone said:
Weren't Georgians also heavily represented among Mamluks? I remember something like that.
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Yeah that’s right. In that capacity they comprised a major element of the ruling clique in both Egypt and Iraq until the 19th century.

As it happens, it was an Albanian Ottoman administrator, Muhammad Ali, who conclusively ended (via massacre) Mamluk power in Egypt in 1811.

(edit): from the above link, it was a proper Game of Thrones-esque episode:

“He organised a grand ceremonial procession in Cairo to which he invited some 500 Mameluke notables. Assembled in the citadel, they were warmly welcomed and treated to coffee, sweetmeats and polite conversation, but when the time came for the procession they had to go down a narrow, winding passageway between high walls in single file. Suddenly the gates at each end were slammed shut and the Wali’s soldiers appeared on top of the walls and opened a murderous fire with muskets. All or possibly all but one of the Mamelukes were killed. More Mamelukes were swiftly hunted down and killed in Cairo and elsewhere in Egypt, to a total of perhaps 3,000.”​

Fifteen years later the Ottoman Sultan Mahmoud II dealt with the Janissaries in a similarly ruthless fashion.
 
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2cents said:
Yeah that’s right. In that capacity they comprised a major element of the ruling clique in both Egypt and Iraq until the 19th century.

As it happens, it was an Albanian Ottoman administrator, Muhammad Ali, who conclusively ended (via massacre) Mamluk power in Egypt in 1811.

(edit): from the above link, it was a proper Game of Thrones-esque episode:
​
“He organised a grand ceremonial procession in Cairo to which he invited some 500 Mameluke notables. Assembled in the citadel, they were warmly welcomed and treated to coffee, sweetmeats and polite conversation, but when the time came for the procession they had to go down a narrow, winding passageway between high walls in single file. Suddenly the gates at each end were slammed shut and the Wali’s soldiers appeared on top of the walls and opened a murderous fire with muskets. All or possibly all but one of the Mamelukes were killed. More Mamelukes were swiftly hunted down and killed in Cairo and elsewhere in Egypt, to a total of perhaps 3,000.”​

Fifteen years later the Ottoman Sultan Mahmoud II dealt with the Janissaries in a similarly ruthless fashion.
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That would make a hell of a movie scene
 
Thanks for posting that. The complexity of that device just blows my mind.
 
In 1871 there were 1,100,886 Irish born residents of the states of New York, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Illinois:

 
2cents said:
In 1871 there were 1,100,886 Irish born residents of the states of New York, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Illinois:

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Ireland still represents the ‘mother country’ figure in the psyche for large swathes of the US from what I’ve experienced. That’s how I got my name.

Same could be said for Italy (though not about the personal part).
 
nimic said:
I guess YouTube figured out I want to watch these kinds of videos, because I've gotten a lot of them popping up in my suggestions. This one is quite interesting:

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Yeah I saw that one and really liked it. It's kind of funny how you imagine ancient battles being fought in the style of Hollywood movies when in actual fact they were real slogging matches where most of the causalities were when the lines broke and people ran away. I guess that wouldn't make for a good movie scene though.
 
Anyone else a fan of the curse of oak island?

reckon they will find any significant treasure there that’s not pieces of wood?
 
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