The Guardian

Guardian said:
There is more than a little truth in Nietzsche’s indictment. But to reach this nugget, you will have to wade through pages of Romantic gibberish about the aristocracy of the spirit and the privileges of genius, which foreshadow the absurd figure of the Übermensch that he concocted in his later work as a redeemer for modern times.
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F*cking stroll on...
 
I used to love The Guardian. Investigative journalism at its finest, was always happy to put a magnifying glass up to the government and call out its bullshit. But now it just seems to be filled with pretentious click bait.:(
 
"And it’s this totally relaxed but intelligent mixing of new and traditional forms of expression that makes Emin a truly eloquent artist."

I think I saw the rough sketch for the piece on a toilet door ...
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@SteveJ please tell me that this is you.
 
Should we still respect Kanye West after his public fight?
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...in which the Guardian continues its transition into Smash Hits:

Should it matter if Kanye West tweets offensive things?

He contributes significantly to modern political discourse, both through his music and in his words and actions. His last album, Yeezus, explored modern-day racism. He fundraises for Obama and snaps selfies with Hillary Clinton. Plus, his music is superb.

And yet, when he released his hate-filled Twitter diatribe at Wiz Khalifa this week, I felt especially upset – even betrayed. How to maintain my self-perception as a patriarchy-crushing feminist when one of my idols proves himself to be so opposed to my ideals?
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Reader's comment:
Again, I'm flummoxed as to whether a Guardian piece is a deliberate piss take or serious. Help?
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/30/kanye-west-amber-rose-respect
 
Does she even listen to Kanye's music? The crux of what he was ranting about is the subject in one of his biggest hits - Gold Digger. He even quoted lines from the song in his 'tirade'. I'm not sure how a feminist could listen to Blame Game without passing kidney stones either.

Personally I felt more distressed by Amber Rose revealing where Kanye used to like Amber sticking her fingers.
 
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My apologies. I don't actually have a problem with Beyoncé - my problem is as follows:

* The overblown nature of many Guardian articles of late.
* The Guardian's insanity in routinely telling us that Kim Kardashian & kin are also 'feminist icons'.

It's my favourite 'paper but, by God, some of its writers are desperate.
 
I got halfway down that page before my brain kicked back in and asked me what the fock it was reading?
 
The best section of the Graun at the moment is their Web We Want series of articles, as if they are a serious website and haven't just ripped off the buzzfeed model. The levels of sanctimonious hypocrisy are hilarious and 90% of the comments sections (the same people they are trying to bring to heal under the guise of troll hunting) are calling them out on it.

The reality is that they are broke as a joke, the web's not paying and they are having to get by on cheap inexperienced (crap) writers, penning juvenile message board wisdom.
 
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...also I've got a bit fed up, over the years, with journalists arrogantly assuming that they speak for the public.
 
SteveJ said:
My apologies. I don't actually have a problem with Beyoncé - my problem is as follows:

* The overblown nature of many Guardian articles of late.
* The Guardian's insanity in routinely telling us that Kim Kardashian & kin are also 'feminist icons'.

It's my favourite 'paper but, by God, some of its writers are desperate.
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Ah, in which case I agree.
 
vi1lain said:
You chose one particular line in a large and for the most part, thorough review.

Her visual album is fantastic btw, and most of the people who dislike it are the ones who don't really care about the audience that it was intended for in the first place.
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I intend to watch it tonight.
 
vi1lain said:
You chose one particular line in a large and for the most part, thorough review.

Her visual album is fantastic btw, and most of the people who dislike it are the ones who don't really care about the audience that it was intended for in the first place.
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Over 60 people wrote that album for her. Thats why i dislike it. Shes not empowering anything.
 
11101 said:
Over 60 people wrote that album for her. Thats why i dislike it. Shes not empowering anything.
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Ironically, a lot of the writers, particularly poets who feature on the credits, and people often get confused as song writers - write the very lyrics that do empower others like Chimamanda Adichie and Warsan Shire.

It's easy to say, "she didn't write any lyrics, she cant play 4 instruments, she's not talented" but the album is meant to be a collaborative project that takes on multiple perspectives and that can only happen with a variety of collaborators.
And also it suggests either a lack of understanding of entertainment law and interpolated lyrics.

For example one song called "Hold Up" includes song writing credits from John Boham who died in 1980, Led Zeppelin & the Yeah Yeah Yeah's. Even though these people didn't actually write the words for the song but are given song-writing credits in order to avoid intellectual property law rights being violated.

In terms of empowerment, yes she did empower lots of people. And she doesn't need to sit alone in a studio by herself to create an album that does this.
 
vi1lain said:
Ironically, a lot of the writers, particularly poets who feature on the credits, and people often get confused as song writers - write the very lyrics that do empower others like Chimamanda Adichie and Warsan Shire.

It's easy to say, "she didn't write any lyrics, she cant play 4 instruments, she's not talented" but the album is meant to be a collaborative project that takes on multiple perspectives and that can only happen with a variety of collaborators.
And also it suggests either a lack of understanding of entertainment law and interpolated lyrics.

For example one song called "Hold Up" includes song writing credits from John Boham who died in 1980, Led Zeppelin & the Yeah Yeah Yeah's. Even though these people didn't actually write the words for the song but are given song-writing credits in order to avoid intellectual property law rights being violated.

In terms of empowerment, yes she did empower lots of people. And she doesn't need to sit alone in a studio by herself to create an album that does this.
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Almost all her music is other people's work that she puts her face to, including this album. Some of the names are where she lifted other ideas, some have written the actual words for her. Then there are the producers, and then all the others involved. Shes simply a product. I dont see how that empowers anyone. The Guardian is at fault for playing up to it.
 
11101 said:
Almost all her music is other people's work that she puts her face to, including this album. Some of the names are where she lifted other ideas, some have written the actual words for her. Then there are the producers, and then all the others involved. Shes simply a product. I dont see how that empowers anyone. The Guardian is at fault for playing up to it.
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No idea's original, everybody takes ideas, samples, melodies, from others work to modify and create their own. All that she's done is written and listed everybody who has collaborated and helped form that project, even if its one line in the entire song. John Boham featured in one line of a song and gets song writing credits because thats the right thing to do, especially as part of entertainment law.

And again producers, musicians etc are always listed. Like I said - she's not sitting in a studio by herself writing every thing, creating the music from scratch, playing all the instruments etc. but the whole purpose of the album was to invoke emotions from perspectives - and again that happens best when you collaborate with a variety of people.

You don't see how it empowers anyone, thats your individual opinion which you're absolutely welcome to.
But don't make blanket statements like she doesn't empower anyone, based off your opinion of her because that's false. She doesn't empower you, but considering the majority of the album, and her previous albums, was written for women specifically that doesn't come as a surprise.
 
vi1lain said:
Nah just generally these days, unless you can point me to someones catalog recently (post 1990) that lists just themselves or their band and nobody else.
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If you are talking about Pop music then fine but then it is a manufactured industry with the sole aim of selling as many records as possible. I don't object to it as such but taking single lyrical lines from other artists is a bit much.

In wider music loads of artists write and compose their own stuff. I know in the metal world that Meshuggah write, compose and produce their own music, as did Periphery on their last album. There are loads of artists in wider music that will do as well. I thought of one that might be obvious in Hozier, so I looked it up and his last album he wrote and composed all the songs on the album except for one which he co-wrote with two other people. I could dig out hundreds more but I am too busy at the moment.

I would have thought the reason why manufactured pop stars have reached this level of cynicism in using other artist's ideas is because they make so little from record sales these days it makes it a good business decision. Takes as many good musical ideas as you can to create a good base product which increases the artist's revenue potential as a touring star (which is where the money is made these days) and use the increased profile from exposure in other money making schemes, like branded product lines etc. The royalties they have to pay for the musical ideas they use becomes a worthwhile economy.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
If you are talking about Pop music then fine but then it is a manufactured industry with the sole aim of selling as many records as possible. I don't object to it as such but taking single lyrical lines from other artists is a bit much.

In wider music loads of artists write and compose their own stuff. I know in the metal world that Meshuggah write, compose and produce their own music, as did Periphery on their last album. There are loads of artists in wider music that will do as well. I thought of one that might be obvious in Hozier, so I looked it up and his last album he wrote and composed all the songs on the album except for one which he co-wrote with two other people. I could dig out hundreds more but I am too busy at the moment.
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I don't listen to Metal (or pop really for that matter) but I do assume most of that genre & similar genre's is self-written exclusively, which is absolutely great.
Reason why I said what I said was because there were a few landmark cases around late 80's early 90s that changed how song credits are listed, which as a result change who gets writing credit and for what reasons they get credit.
However most people assume that it's because whoever the artist is didn't write most of the lyrics, therefore they're not talented and everything that goes along with that - and it usually isn't as straight forward as that.
Of course most pop is manufactured, pre-packaged bull, but I think credit should be given when its due (no pun intended)
 
Beyonce is pop, no?

She is a talented dancer, singer and entertainer and she is also attractive. This makes her perfect for manufacturing into a high profile pop star.

She might also be culturally relevant and has empowered some oppressed factions of society. But that doesn't mean in pure musical terms that what she does isn't artistically reductive. And a good number of people put a crucial value on music as art.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Beyonce is pop, no?

She is a talented dancer, singer and entertainer and she is also attractive. This makes her perfect for manufacturing into a high profile pop star.

She might also be culturally relevant and has empowered some oppressed factions of society. But that doesn't mean in pure musical terms that what she does isn't artistically reductive. And a good number of people put a crucial value on music as art.
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I wouldn't place her as pop, in the same way I wouldn't say Adele is pop either.
Pop to me is Taylor Swift, Katy Perry & Rihanna. Beyonce dabbles in pop usually on singles, but her albums are a mixture of pop, R&B, soul & contemporary R&B, but a lot of sounds are made with a live band that incorporate jazz & blues also.

I think her cultural relevance, or artistic value is completely subjective as it is with any musician or 'artist' in the broader definition of the term, as it should be.

It's just the general idea and snobbery that irritates, as though certain music genres are intrinsically better than others, therefore artists who fall within that band aren't as worthy or talented as others. Even though, art, talent & music are all completely subjective & fluid.
 
Odd Beyonce yarns are in both Guardian and DM threads right now.
 
vi1lain said:
I wouldn't place her as pop, in the same way I wouldn't say Adele is pop either.
Pop to me is Taylor Swift, Katy Perry & Rihanna. Beyonce dabbles in pop usually on singles, but her albums are a mixture of pop, R&B, soul & contemporary R&B, but a lot of sounds are made with a live band that incorporate jazz & blues also.

I think her cultural relevance, or artistic value is completely subjective as it is with any musician or 'artist' in the broader definition of the term, as it should be.

It's just the general idea and snobbery that irritates, as though certain music genres are intrinsically better than others, therefore artists who fall within that band aren't as worthy or talented as others. Even though, art, talent & music are all completely subjective & fluid.
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You can put an objective value on all those things you perceive as subjective. What an individual values is subjective, however.

If you perceive 'art' as the expression of self then how could Beyonce be considered an 'artist' as her art is borrowed from, created by, directed by and choreographed by other people to varying degrees. That is all I mean by saying what she does is artistically reductive, as opposed to someone like Hozier (not that I'm a fan especially) whose songs are to a much greater degree his own vision.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You can put an objective value on all those things you perceive as subjective. What an individual values is subjective, however.

If you perceive 'art' as the expression of self then how could Beyonce be considered an 'artist' as her art is borrowed from, created by, directed by and choreographed by other people to varying degrees. That is all I mean by saying what she does is artistically reductive, as opposed to someone like Hozier (not that I'm a fan especially) whose songs are to a much greater degree his own vision.
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Again that sounds limiting and disabling of the part she does play. Just because she doesn't do it all doesn't mean her art is borrowed or reductive.
She does a large part of her choreography, she does do parts of the editing and directing of videos. She has a lot more control and creative expression than people realise, in the past when she was managed by her father a lot of that was stifled and this wasn't the case.
But in more recent years, that's completely changed. She works with a live band, and a group of dancers. She picks certain visualists, poets & actors who fit into the vision she's trying to create.

With regards to this particular visual album - the 'art' is an expression of both herself, her mother & women as a whole. And to achieve this it uses 'art' from other creatives, that all together form into one piece. Hence why you can't limit art, because you aren't always producing art purely for self.

The point is, she is largely talented, and does delve into other areas - her label don't get her to sing and perform something which they've pre-packaged for her.
But that's the image that's associated with her, and it couldn't be further from the truth.
No she's not an actor, director, editor, song writer, singer, dancer, choreographer, live musician and more.
But most people don't actually know how much she does behind the scene, it's just the narrative that she's a pop star who doesn't write her own songs. Therefore it's easy to dismiss her and anything she does straight away.
 
I am not dismissing her. It all depends on what you listen to music for. Beyonce just doesn't tick very many boxes for me as I prefer bands/artists that express themselves primarily through songs and lyrics they have written themselves.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I am not dismissing her. It all depends on what you listen to music for. Beyonce just doesn't tick very many boxes for me as I prefer bands/artists that express themselves primarily through songs and lyrics they have written themselves.
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Oh trust me I don't expect anybody on here to like her music, i'm aware of the demographic :lol:
My point is that she does more and has a bigger part to play than people give her credit for, especially considering the average person doesn't really understand song writing credits in the first place.
 
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