The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft QF - harms vs. idmanager

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?


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  • Poll closed .

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TEAMS HARMS

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VS

TEAM IDMANAGER

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TACTICS HARMS

Tactics

It's quite simple, really. I'll comment on the detail later, but it's a counter-attacking set up, well capable of withstanding the pressure and to release my forwards on the quick counters. Thuram and Zebec will be fairly conservative — with both having experience of playing not only as fullbacks, but also as centerbacks; excellent service from Beckenbauer, Netzer and Breitner will find my rapid and skilful front three in good positions to punish idmanager on the counter.

A key tactical mismatch is Francisco Gento (supported, at times, with Zebec) against the makeshift right-back, be it Costacurta (probably) or Santamaria. idmanager gave this explanation to his first round formation

But you have to have someone like Conti providing the balance on the right side - and Garrincha is the wrong type of winger to play in such formation (the picture is from Jonathan Wilson's book "Inverting the Pyramid")
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Another point I wanted to make was about Franz Beckenbauer. It's easier to focus all attention on the flashy Maradona, but I have a player who performed at an absolutely ridiculous level for more than a decade, influencing a game from a libero position like no one before or after him — being, incredibly, at the same time a world-class center back and a world-class playmaker. His consistent brilliance is definitely underestimated, just look at his positions in Ballon D'Or list:

1st - 1972, 1976
2nd - 1974, 1975
3rd - 1966
4th - 1967, 1968, 1970, 1973
5th - 1971
7th - 1969
17th - 1965

Key battles

There is no doubt on whenever Scirea is an all-time great defender. But even all-time great defenders have some players they struggled against. Paolo Maldini and Brian Laudrup, Alessandro Nesta and Luis Ronaldo… can we say the same about Gaetano Scirea and Preben Elkjær?

Fantastic performance against the Scirea-led Italian defence (Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Collovati, Cabrini. Elkjær makes 2 assists and hits the post with his long range attempt.



Elkjær’s most iconic goal came on October 14 at the Stadio Bentegodi in a 2-0 win over Juventus, again with the great Scirea leading the black and white defence, which earned him the nickname of ‘Cinderella’. The Dane broke down the left flank, beat two defenders, lost his right boot in a tackle before carrying on to stroke the ball into the far corner of the net. He also should’ve been awarded a penalty in a different episode of that game in my opinion. Hellas Verona famously beat that Juventus not only in this game, but also in a race for the league title, securing one of the least likeliest underdog achievements in football’s history.



Not sure who Gento will be facing in this game, be it Mel Charles, Bosingwa, Santamaria or Costacurta, only Bosingwa is natural at this position and neither of them will be a good match for his frightening pace and skill.

Gento was so fast it was funny: At first fans laughed at this player who was forever running out of field, hurtling into the billboards beyond the byline. Di Stéfano complained that he was too quick, telling teammates, especially Rial, not to play the ball into space for Gento too soon. “I’d be there shouting ‘stop, stop,’” he remembers. The reason was simple: the rest of the team could not catch up.

“Gento’s speed was terrifying. It was impossible to stop him and as fast as he went he could stop—in a meter, while the other guy kept on running, skidding past, trying to put the brakes on. He’s out of the game, and Gento’s going the other way.”



While it’s not fair to label John Charles a battering ram, he was a great footballer as well, it’s obvious that his main strength is his size and aerial game (especially with the support of Garrincha and Dzajic). It’s hard to find someone better equipped to face him than Oscar Ruggeri, named «El Cabezon» (big-headed) for his incredible aerial dominance. Although he was equally sharp in the air and on the ground — and when Maradona surges forward, he won’t be hopelessly lost too:



There are no two ways about it — idmanager has the best player on the pitch in Maradona, and that makes him a favourite — and me an underdog. But football is full of stories of successful underdogs, and that's why we like it — or, as Fergie put it: «Football, bloody hell». There are also lots of examples of lesser players negating the influence of better ones — Gentile vs Maradona & Zico, Stiles vs Eusebio etc. In this game van Bommel will be faced with the incredible task — to make Maradona play worse than he can, but he has the skillset to, at least, try to succeed. His main strength for me was always his intelligence, and not only in the good way — and with his cunnings, provocations, constant bending of the rules he'll make sure that their duel is not only about who plays better at football. But, of course, he's not facing him alone — in behind I have the great Kaiser marshalling my defence, next to him — Netzer and Breitner, who'll make their best to help him here. Denying Maradona not only the ball, but also the space to operate in is my best (and only) chance to succeed — and I'm sure that my players will do their best to win here.

Additional points

There is only one ball

And now, as expected, the «too many cooks» argument. In a Soviet fairytale an old wizard, when he first encountered a football game, generously gave every one of the 22 players their own ball — why are they fighting for one ball when they can each have their own? But on the football pitch you’ll only ever have one ball (unless you’re playing Sunderland away), and you need to share it. Dzajic - Maradona - Garrincha looks great on paper, but I don’t think that they’ll work perfectly, complimenting each others style. All of them are the very embodiment of a ball-hogger, always being the main men in their respective teams, and they’ll get frustrated by each others will to have the ball at their feet at all times.

On my team I have a complimentary playmaking duo of Beckenbauer and Netzer, the brains and vision behind Germany’s European success in 1972; and my wingers are better suited for their respective roles — Gento played with Di Stefano and Puskas, Finney was often willing share the ball with Matthews and other English stars — even though both were very capable of being the main men themselves. Netzer also formed a formidable and complimentary duo with Breitner in Real Madrid’s midfield in the 70’s (plus the earlier version of Breitner worked wonders with them in 1972).


Multiple goalthreats

Incredibly, 7 players from my starting 11 scored more than 100 goals in their career — Elkjær, Finney, Gento, Netzer, Breitner, Beckenbauer and, surprisingly, van Bommel.
A vast array of goalscorers is, obviously, a big plus for me — as literally anyone from my team is capable of scoring the winning goal. To illustrate my point — one of my all-time favourite goals. Elias Figueroa provided one of the best individual defensive performances in history, completely marking the great Gerd Müller out of the game, but Paul Breitner was not having that — a thunderbolt strike and the West Germany were through to eventually win that World Cup



Notably, a very few midfielders won Ballon D’Or — just Matthäus, Masopust, Suarez and Charlton. And while they’ve never won it, Netzer and Breitner both finished as runners up, Netzer — in 1972 (only 2 points behind the eventual winner Beckenbauer), also finishing 4th a year before; Breitner — in 1981, when he was bested only by his beloved partner Rummenigge (Breitner also had a 4th place finish in 1974). However good, neither of their opponents in midfield can match that — Maradona, obviously, aside.


TACTICS IDMANAGER

Formation
: 4-2-3-1
Tactics : The front 4 will produce attack after attack with quick play and tire the opposition and punish any mistakes they make. The defense will stay back and protect against any counters. We expect to dominate the game and win the midfield battle.

Defence:

The defense is marshaled and organized by Gaetano Scirea, the greatest Italian defender alongside Baresi. Partnering Scirea is one of the greatest stoppers of all time, Jose Santamaria.

On the left side is Silvio Marzolini, the greatest Argentine left back of all time. He will be playing a strictly defensive role and only go forward if required to link up and not beyond the centre line. On the right side of the defense in a tucked in role is Alessandro Costacurta, one of the greatest Italian defenders of all time. Costacurta has played as a right back plenty of times for both Milan and Italy. He has played it at the highest level as well in the 2003 Champions League final which Milan won and maintained a clean sheet.

The defense is designed to make Scirea feel at home in a setup he enjoyed playing the most. The tucked in right back Costacurta allows Scirea to venture into the midfield battle without compromising on the defensive side of things. A role which Claudio Gentile played alongside Scirea with great success.

With the attacking talent on the pitch, the defense will stay back to avoid any counters getting through.

Midfield:

The midfield comprises the usual GOAT setup. A defensive deep lying play maker capable of dictating the game at the top level. A high energy box to box midfielder capable of supporting in both the offense and defense. And of course an attacking midfielder capable of tearing teams apart.

Fernando Redondo and Clarence Seedorf form the two man base with the greatest player of all time, Diego Maradona ahead of them.

With Scirea joining the midfield battle in a diamond of sorts, the midfield is highly capable in both the offensive and defensive aspects of the game with no chance of being outnumbered or dominated.
Seedorf will have the additional responsibility of supporting against attacks on the right side.

Attack:

The attack has a very simple setup.

The greatest undisputed right winger of all time in Garrincha.
A top 3 greatest left winger of all time in Dragan Dzajic.
The greatest attacking midfielder and the greatest player of all time, Diego Maradona

The best part of the attack is that all three of them operate in different areas of the pitch leaving loads of space for each other.
Garrincha will terrorize the right flank, Dzajic the left flank and Maradona through the centre and roam about as he wishes.
The idea is to make the pitch as big as possible and tire the hell out of the opposition while opening gaps for others.

A team built with two greatest wingers of all time and the greatest AM of all time time demands a striker to suit all three of them. And leading the attack is John Charles, a complete striker. He was supremely talented, possessing a delicate first touch and good control, and in the air he was masterful. Not just because of his spectacular ability to rise above defenses, but also the awesome power with which he could head the ball. Apart from his versatility, he was comfortable with either foot, possessed great stamina and strength. He would use his tremendous poaching abilities in the box to terrorize the defense with all the supply behind him.
 
A key tactical mismatch is Francisco Gento (supported, at times, with Zebec) against the makeshift right-back, be it Costacurta (probably) or Santamaria. idmanager gave this explanation to his first round formation

But you have to have someone like Conti providing the balance on the right side - and Garrincha is the wrong type of winger to play in such formation (the picture is from Jonathan Wilson's book "Inverting the Pyramid")

I am happy Gento is where the discussion begins.

Firstly, its not Garrincha that supports down that flank, but its Seedorf, who has done that many a time in his career in the same role. Probably the perfect player on the right side of the midfield for me.
Also, Costacurta has played a right back plenty of times as I already mentioned including in a CL final, so he is no nut there.
Its not like he will be playing so much inside to leave the whole flank for Gento although I am sure you would wish that with a cunning choice of picture. Good job there :lol:
What you fail to see is I don't have a Cabrini-esque attacking wing back who would run up and down the flank like in that team with Gentile. Marzolini has been instructed to be defensive, which was his natural game. So the need for Costacurta to completely come infield doesn't arise.

Secondly, I am glad you went with the flashy name Gento in this game rather than someone like Overmars who would have so much more impact.
The thing with a player like Gento is you need to have 2 strikers or a striker and number 10 for him to be effective at his peak levels.
An orthodox winger with pace to burn like him reaches no where near his peak in a 4-3-3.
In fact, if you have a look at the Real Madrid lineups where he won everything there was to, he always had 2 strikers at his disposal. How many great 4-3-3 teams do you know with orthodox wingers who had a weak second foot?
I would rate him as the second best player on your pitch and first biggest misfit in the formation.

Regarding Zebec supporting in attack, I would more than gladly welcome him. In Seedorf I have someone protecting in 2 vs 1 scenarios.
And in Garrincha I have someone to kill that flank if Zebec thinks of going forward.
 
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Dzajic - Maradona - Garrincha looks great on paper, but I don’t think that they’ll work perfectly, complimenting each others style. All of them are the very embodiment of a ball-hogger, always being the main men in their respective teams, and they’ll get frustrated by each others will to have the ball at their feet at all times.

I imagined this would be brought up.
Take the example of Ribery-Maradona-Messi from the last draft and why it got so much criticism. The simple reason being all three had overlapping regions where they liked to work and would constantly get in path of each other with none having freedom and space. Ribbery and Messi being inverted wingers made it a bad mismatch.

Here, you have two orthodox wingers capable of staying at the wings and winning the match from there alone. Garrincha and Dzajic didn't need to cut in like Messi and Ribery to have meaningful impact on the game.
That leaves the centre fully free for Maradona to run havoc as he wishes with Charles manning the box.

If anything, what the trio guarantees is the need for you to mark them always and probably not have enough bodies to double team up on them. Since the idea is to stretch the pitch as much as possible anyways, I can imagine the game having too many spaces for me to score plenty from open play.

Especially with Van Bommel and a wing back Zebec against the greatest player of all time and the greatest right winger of all time makes it way too easy to score.

Ball hogging is a funny term used a lot here. The average time a footballers holds a ball in a football game is a stat that would amaze you by the looks of it. Even if he is Maradona or Pele. Across 90 mins, everyone would get enough chances to 'hog the ball'. Unless they overlap a lot on the grass and run into each other which they don't here, they should do fine (Probably the most modest moment of my life).
 
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I was not sure if Kaiser would start in the midfield or defense, so didn't mention this in the OP.
He was awesome at what he did at the back, but defending against crosses against a tall centre forward who had probably the greatest heading ability of all time was not something he was known for or great at.
This is one mismatch which I can see working in my favor with the wingers I have in play and John Charles of course.

I expected Kaiser to start in the midfield and Ruggeri-Thuram to start in central defense which would have been a better way of coping against Charles.

With a multi faced attack like mine, leaving Charles to the mercy of Ruggeri alone is as good as a man marking job which would be disastrous here.
 
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but defending against crosses against a tall centre forward who had probably the greatest heading ability of all time was not something he was known for or great at.
Wait, Kocsis is playing?!
 
Firstly, its not Garrincha that supports down that flank, but its Seedorf, who has done that many a time in his career in the same role. Probably the perfect player on the right side of the midfield for me.
Gentile also had Tardelli helping him out, but you wouldn't want your midfielder dropping to the right so often when you have Netzer, Breitner and Beckenbauer there to compete with.

Costacurta is playing against Gento, and he is ill-suited for him - not only because he isn't a right back, but because his skillset (the lack of enormous pace, first and foremost), isn't ideal. And without Garrincha helping out, Gento will already running at full pace...
 
Ruggeri and Beara are more then good enough to cover for Charles. Especially since when we are soaking up pressure and sitting back, Thuram and Zebec (who was very tall and great in the air) will help.
 
Surely it will be Ruggeri on Charles?
 
Wait, Kocsis is playing?!

Alright, top 3? Should still cause Beckenbauer trouble.

Gentile also had Tardelli helping him out, but you wouldn't want your midfielder dropping to the right so often when you have Netzer, Breitner and Beckenbauer there to compete with.

Costacurta is playing against Gento, and he is ill-suited for him - not only because he isn't a right back, but because his skillset (the lack of enormous pace, first and foremost), isn't ideal. And without Garrincha helping out, Gento will already running at full pace...

How often do you expect that to happen? If you expect to dominate the ball, I would just laugh it off. Because you are either joking or jumping into a pitfall against the attacking unit that will punish you.
Unless Zebec joins the attack very often, I don't see Seedorf spending too much time there.

Again regarding Italy 1982, Marzolini replaces Cabrini which removes the width providing aspect in the left side of the defense. So Garrincha is not needed like Conti was.

Regarding Costacurta and Gento, you have to remember that Costacurta will stay back and won't join the attack on the right flank. So most of the pace argument goes down the bin. In fact he was not slow as a snail if not the quickest.
Costacurta's best abilities were reading the game and attacks tactically and his tremendous tackling ability. Those are exactly what you need while sitting back against Gento.
 
Surely it will be Ruggeri on Charles?

I don't mind that, have already answered why. You need two centre backs strong enough to deal with him in the air. One just leaves too little room for error or covering up for others. More or less a man marking job which is not a good idea here against so many different angles in attack..

I expected Kaiser to start in the midfield and Ruggeri-Thuram to start in central defense which would have been a better way of coping against Charles.

With a multi faced attack like mine, leaving Charles to the mercy of Ruggeri alone is as good as a man marking job which would be disastrous here.
 
Ruggeri and Beara are more then good enough to cover for Charles. Especially since when we are soaking up pressure and sitting back, Thuram and Zebec (who was very tall and great in the air) will help.

Leaving Garrincha and Dzajic open in that case both of whom for great goalscorers themselves.

As I said earlier, double teaming up on any player in a wide game would leave unmarked GOATs somewhere or the other which would end the game as a competition in no time.
 
Biggest mismatch on the pitch is Van Bommel against Maradona.

Van Bommel was a pretty good footballer in his own right, but against Maradona, I see him chasing shadows all game long.
That midfield demands a destroyer capable of shutting down Maradona all game long and Van Bommel is not capable of that.
In fact all the dirty play harms expects him to do against a nasty trickster like Diego would lead to plenty of free kicks around the box.

Will catch up on further arguments in a few hours as have a couple of stupid meeting lined up. Cheers.
 
Superb OP from harms and just what’s needed facing that absolute juggernaut from idmanager.

Regarding the aerial argument, I don’t see that being particularly decisive given the likelihood of cancelling out across Charles, Big head, Thuram and Zebec.
 
Again regarding Italy 1982, Marzolini replaces Cabrini which removes the width providing aspect in the left side of the defense. So Garrincha is not needed like Conti was.
How is Conti related to the left wing?
 
How is Conti related to the left wing?

You push a left wing back up, the defense converts to a 3 man defense, needing the right winger to slot in with defensive effort for balance.
The amount the RB needs to tuck in depends on that. (Another aspect being the libero joining the midfield battle when in possession)

Cabrini+Gentile is not the same as Marzolini+Costacurta as I have mentioned plenty of times now :)

The ineffectiveness and under utilization of Gento in a 4-3-3 without a second striker or number 10 as I have already explained in detail actually makes it a much more easier task.
 
Biggest mismatch on the pitch is Van Bommel against Maradona.

Van Bommel was a pretty good footballer in his own right, but against Maradona, I see him chasing shadows all game long.
That midfield demands a destroyer capable of shutting down Maradona all game long and Van Bommel is not capable of that.
In fact all the dirty play harms expects him to do against a nasty trickster like Diego would lead to plenty of free kicks around the box.

Will catch up on further arguments in a few hours as have a couple of stupid meeting lined up. Cheers.
Obviously — but thankfully I also has Ruggeri and Franz fecking Beckenbauer behind him, who is the best libero ever with incredible understanding of the game who will be covering for when van Bommel loses Maradona (which, of course, would happen).
 
Alright, top 3? Should still cause Beckenbauer trouble.
To be frank, I'm not sure that you've seen how Charles plays :rolleyes: He was huge, especially for his time, but he wasn't some aerial monster - in fact, he based a lot of his play on Di Stefano and often dropped deeper to spray some passes or dribble his way forward.

I've made an all-touch compilation of him some time ago
 
@idmanager can you post some more info on Marzolini?

And I don't see how Gento is not in a good position here.
 
Secondly, I am glad you went with the flashy name Gento in this game rather than someone like Overmars who would have so much more impact.
The thing with a player like Gento is you need to have 2 strikers or a striker and number 10 for him to be effective at his peak levels.
An orthodox winger with pace to burn like him reaches no where near his peak in a 4-3-3.
In fact, if you have a look at the Real Madrid lineups where he won everything there was to, he always had 2 strikers at his disposal. How many great 4-3-3 teams do you know with orthodox wingers who had a weak second foot?
I would rate him as the second best player on your pitch and first biggest misfit in the formation.
As with Charles, I'm afraid you haven't seen him play (at least enough). Take a look Madrid vs Eintracht in 1960, for example. Gento starts as an outside left, obviously, but look at how often he goes centrally, especially in the second half. Puskas goes wide, Di Stefano drops back and suddenly you have Gento and Del Sol as center forwards. More so, on the rare occasion that Madrid were on a counter that game, usually Gento cut inside to get on the end of a through ball by Puskas/Di Stefano.

Not to say that later in his career Gento moved to the full-time central role as a playmaker/attacking midfielder a la Giggs.

Elkjaer is a perfect partner for him, as he can play one-twos and goes inside when Elkjaer moves out wide. I don't know how Gento "requires" 2 strikers or a number 10 (especially strange argument) for him. More so, with Di Stefano and Del Sol both dropping back, as happened a lot, it was basically Gento - Puskas - RW (Canario or others) as what resembles a front three.

Does Di Stefano or Puskas require front 5 to play in draft games? Do you think that Charles will be only effective in the set up he had in Juventus in the 50's/early 60's?
 
By the way, the compliations that I've made for this game from 1972 Euros final, where Netzer and Beckenbauer (and Breitner) played together. I think because Beckenbauer was so good going forward many forget that he was a world-class center back, and his intelligence is so much required when Maradona gets free of his marker.

Again — I don't expect and I don't want for van Bommel to stop Maradona entirely, it will be plain stupid from me to, but he'll negate his influence a bit, and then there is Beckenbauer/Ruggeri to beat next.





Preben Elkjær — a counter-attacking menace at his best. By the way, his 3-years peak is almost as good as it gets in 1984-1986 he finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in Ballon D'Or lists, also grabbing a Bronze ball at the 1986 World Cup

 
And I don't see how Gento is not in a good position here.
Secondly, I am glad you went with the flashy name Gento in this game rather than someone like Overmars who would have so much more impact.
The thing with a player like Gento is you need to have 2 strikers or a striker and number 10 for him to be effective at his peak levels.
An orthodox winger with pace to burn like him reaches no where near his peak in a 4-3-3.
In fact, if you have a look at the Real Madrid lineups where he won everything there was to, he always had 2 strikers at his disposal. How many great 4-3-3 teams do you know with orthodox wingers who had a weak second foot?
I would rate him as the second best player on your pitch and first biggest misfit in the formation.
Can Charles shine without a front 5, like he played with Sivori, Boniperti, Nicole and Stacchini?
Of course he can, even though his peak was with them — because he has the skillset to play like a modern center forward.
Can Gento play in the role he plays now? Of course he can, because he has the skillset to play like a modern winger, even though he would be more orthodox than Finney here, who will cut inside more.
 
You miss the point regarding Charles completely. I have seen enough videos of him, quite a few since he was my first pick and the picks after were to make the setup fit him well.

Charles would not need to drop deep here and has the freedom to be a poacher with all the supply lines he has. Especially with Maradona behind, the need for him to be involved in build up becomes quite less. Just because he doesn't need to do that, doesn't mean he can't play the role he is assigned here. Nothing more is asked of him here. He is being asked to do a role he is pretty fit to do.

Its a completely different issue with Gento. He along with Finney are the primary suppliers of your team. He had scored a decent amount of goals, but from a creation of goals point of view, you do not have the right setup for a orthodox winger who was weak on right foot. Similar to having prime Giggs in a 4-3-3. Its not something he would have made a lot of impact on. At least Finney is in the right setup. Gento is not.

Him being a playmaker later in his career like Giggs is a moot point. You are clearly not playing that version of him. You can't combine two different versions of a player years apart to suggest something could work.
 
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Saying Gento can't play in a 433 seems like a nitpick. He will be fine here IMO. Van Bommel on Diego is still an issue though.
 
Obviously — but thankfully I also has Ruggeri and Franz fecking Beckenbauer behind him, who is the best libero ever with incredible understanding of the game who will be covering for when van Bommel loses Maradona (which, of course, would happen).

So every time Van Bommel loses Maradona which will be most of the times, Beckenbauer or Ruggeri step out, leaving the defense wide open against Charles/Dzajic/Garrincha.
I would expect the greatest play maker of all time to tear open such an open defense time and again.

There are so many players covering for each other, its like there are 2 instances of each on the pitch :lol:
Which is why I mentioned this in the OP.

The best part of the attack is that all three of them operate in different areas of the pitch leaving loads of space for each other.
Garrincha will terrorize the right flank, Dzajic the left flank and Maradona through the centre and roam about as he wishes.
The idea is to make the pitch as big as possible and tire the hell out of the opposition while opening gaps for others.
 
Saying Gento can't play in a 433 seems like a nitpick. He will be fine here IMO. Van Bommel on Diego is still an issue though.

The terms I used were under utilized and ineffective. He can obviously play there. He is a fecking top 3 greatest left winger of all time.
Will he have the GOAT level of impact? I don't think so without a second striker or Number 10 on the pitch.
 
@idmanager can you post some more info on Marzolini?

Marzolini was a right footed left back. He was a very balanced full back with a defense first attitude for most parts of his career.
He did play as a wing back for sometime in his career and could cross well. Of course, that is not something he would here.

Him being right footed work out quite well against Finney who constantly liked to cut in.
 
Apart from Maradona vs Von Bommel which is an obvious mismtach, I would even place Zebec vs Garrincha in a similar category considering the former was known more for his wing back and attacking instincts down the left rather than his defensive ones. Not that I am calling him Gibbs vs Garrincha, but I don't think he is of the defensive rank to get a hold of the greatest right winger of all time.

Since harms plans to use him in attack as well to team up with Gento, I see him an as big a liability as Van Bommel here.

Works out quite well that the two best players on my side face them.
 
You miss the point regarding Charles completely. I have seen enough videos of him, quite a few since he was my first pick and the picks after were to make the setup fit him well.

Charles would not need to drop deep here and has the freedom to be a poacher will all the supply lines he has. Especially with Maradona behind, the need for him to be involved in build up becomes not a lot. Just because he doesn't need to do that, doesn't mean he can't play that role.
It's you who missed my point on Charles. It's not that he had to drop deep because the lack of creators, it was his natural game. My point about him dropping deep was about his playing style - he was far from Vieri-esque aerial beast who got his supplies from wingers, but a rather cultured forward who preferred one-twos and dribbling runs to the physical play, despite of his appearance. He was brilliant in the air, of course, even though it was more to his size that won't be so significant today (players nowadays are taller), but he wasn't an all-time great like you are trying to picture him — at least in my opinion after watching him play.

It's like Lukaku, not comparing them quality-wise, of course Charles is significantly better, but as a striker with such enormous physique whose actual strengths are in different components of the game.
 
Apart from Maradona vs Von Bommel which is an obvious mismtach, I would even place Zebec vs Garrincha in a similar category considering the former was known more for his wing back and attacking instincts down the left rather than his defensive ones. Not that I am calling him Gibbs vs Garrincha, but I don't think he is of the defensive rank to get a hold of the greatest right winger of all time.

This is a man who completely nullified Raymond Kopa (another talented outside right, also a Ballon D'Or winner) when he was tasked to mark him, and also this:

After all that, he was transformed into a CB (but he also continued to play as winger/attacker, wing half and full-back) and he was very good on that position. During the one of the most important games for the national team (qualifications for World Cup 1958), in which Yugoslavia played against Romania he played as CB. Many claim that this was his best game for national team at that position. Every high ball was his (very superior in the air), he won every 1 on 1 play against opposite attacker, also during the game he was in every place in the defense. In one word: Perfection! One of the coaches came to him after the game, grab his shoulder and said: "Are you a man or are you a beast? I've never seen anybody playing the whole 90 minutes so perfect and without any mistake!"

After his first game for national team in CB position (a few games before the one I mentioned before), many foreign journalists and football experts wrote that he's one of the greatest discoveries in CB and libero position (CWP) and that he played in those positions even better than on his original position. Many journalists, football experts, coaches and players, from 1950s, agree that Zebec was the best center-half during that era. Some of them even said, that he should be among Best 11 squad of all times.
 
It's you who missed my point on Charles. It's not that he had to drop deep because the lack of creators, it was his natural game. My point about him dropping deep was about his playing style - he was far from Vieri-esque aerial beast who got his supplies from wingers, but a rather cultured forward who preferred one-twos and dribbling runs to the physical play, despite of his appearance. He was brilliant in the air, of course, even though it was more to his size that won't be so significant today (players nowadays are taller), but he wasn't an all-time great like you are trying to picture him — at least in my opinion after watching him play.

It's like Lukaku, not comparing them quality-wise, of course Charles is significantly better, but as a striker with such enormous physique whose actual strengths are in different components of the game.

You are limiting my argument to him being an aerial beast.
I have already mentioned in the OP that he in fact had great control on the ball and scored with both feet as well. He had a pretty good touch as well.

How these strengths are different to the game, I don't know.

Just because he is being asked to stay close to the goal, doesn't make it unnatural considering how many he has scored.
Its like the same arguments made against Puskas that he can't play alone upfront.
 
By the way, for those who are less familiar with Finney, his career highlight with England and the only full game that I could find:

 
This is a man who completely nullified Raymond Kopa (another talented outside right, also a Ballon D'Or winner) when he was tasked to mark him, and also this:

From what I have read (same argument someone made in the past) he didn't play a LB in that game. He was involved in the attack and was assigned to track back and help against Kopa.

In a 1 vs 1 battle, its a completely different task altogether. And with him being involved in attack as well, I think you are underating Garrincha tremendously.
 
You are limiting my argument to him being an aerial beast.
I have already mentioned in the OP that he in fact had great control on the ball and scored with both feet as well. He had a pretty good touch as well.

How these strengths are different to the game, I don't know.

Just because he is being asked to stay close to the goal, doesn't make it unnatural considering how many he has scored.
Its like the same arguments made against Puskas that he can't play alone upfront.
defending against crosses against a tall centre forward who had probably the greatest heading ability of all time was not something he was known for or great at.
You said that he was the best header of the ball ever — he wasn't. I never questioned his actual credentials and suitability in attack - he actually slots right in with Maradona here, having played with somewhat similar Sivori in his club career.
 
You said that he was the best header of the ball ever — he wasn't. I never questioned his actual credentials and suitability in attack - he actually slots right in with Maradona here, having played with somewhat similar Sivori in his club career.

You said he wasn't an all time great in the air.
Recently watched all his Seria A goals and based on what I saw, I believe he was.
Lets agree to disagree.

Edit: He scored equal amounts with both his feet though. Before the reinforcements, I wanted to get Kocsis in and move Charles to the defense, but realized quite soon that it would be plain stupid.
 
From what I have read (same argument someone made in the past) he didn't play a LB in that game. He was involved in the attack and was assigned to track back and help against Kopa.

In a 1 vs 1 battle, its a completely different task altogether. And with him being involved in attack as well, I think you are underating Garrincha tremendously.

Aye, he played in the midfield and helped out against Kopa. He did not start as left back.

Of course, the next time France and Yugoslavia met, Kopa scored two goals against the Zebec led Yugoslavia squad.

Not sure how this helps increase his defensive credentials at LB against the all time greatest right winger, while Zebec still lends an hand in attack :confused:
 
I like the amount of interest and argument this game gained from other voters/managers :lol: