The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft QF - Enigma_87 vs. 2mufc0

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Enigma_87 said:
Modric at LCM doesn't help either in terms of tactical fit.
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I liked Modric there. I actually don't understand why he didn't start in the first game. It's not a greta fit with Junior, but that takes you back to Junior being a misfit, not Modric.

Think 2mufc0 had first dibs at reinforcement round. Sure Amoros is not the flashiest options for a first pick, but a necessary upgrade of a position that badly needed to be upgraded IMO.
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Come on :lol: he would be an idiot if he did that. It's not THAT bad that you would pass on Ronaldo or similar.
 
2mufc0 said:
The way i see it Ronaldo over Shearer is far better upgrade than say Amoros over Carvajal.

Defensively I think we can keep them quiet, on the counter Eusebio + Ronaldo will be lethal.
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Well you wouldn't had to make a choice tho as you could've had Alves instead of Varela.

I don't think Carvajal/Jack will keep Cruyff/Kalle quiet far from it..
 
Enigma_87 said:
Well you wouldn't had to make a choice tho as you could've had Alves instead of Varela.

I don't think Carvajal/Jack will keep Cruyff/Kalle quiet far from it..
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Those aren't the only defenders in the back line though, Cannavaro has been completely ignored and Baresi is in there to marshall the defence. Then I have Buffon who has also gone under the radar easily better than his counterpart and top 5 of all time.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If 2mufc wins he can upgrade Carvajal next. And its not a given he would even stick to a 352 anyway. Could easily go for a RB type and switch to 4 at the back. With Varela and Baresi the spine potent anyway.
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I wouldn't touch his front three though and there's only two reinforcements left.

One is lamb style based on a specific (pre-set but unknown in advance) criterion, the other is picking from spoils of war (i.e. beaten semifinalist). They were specifically defined that way so that teams couldn't get transformed halfway through or have a massive pool of options to fix up a glaring omission very late on. It's designed to reward good planning and focus on balance rather than shiny toy accummulation.

Bottomline is, in his current lineup three players clearly need addressing so something will have to give. So actually, you are right, since all three are in the back 5 it may mean a back 4.
 
This is a really weird game.

Ronaldo and Eusebio, serviced by Sir Bobby will get at least a couple here.

At the other end, I can see the frontline nullified but not the constant threat from crosses with two beasts like Vidal and Ballack attacking them.

It's a 2-1/3-2 game, just not sure which side... and then there's Buffon.
 
antohan said:
This is a really weird game.

Ronaldo and Eusebio, serviced by Sir Bobby will get at least a couple here.

At the other end, I can see the frontline nullified but not the constant threat from crosses with two beasts like Vidal and Ballack attacking them.

It's a 2-1/3-2 game, just not sure which side... and then there's Buffon.
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And outside the box as well, should be 3-2 for our side, can see both sides scoring couple here, but our flanks should dominate the opposition where in a closed and packed game in the middle that is usually pretty decisive :)
 
I was speaking more from a styles perspective as both of them are very well suited to running with the ball and drifting wide so the need for wing backs to provide width is negated to a large extent.

If he had somebody like shearer or Charles there I would agree with you completely but I think his current setup works fine due to having two unique strikers.

From your side, I really don't like having gomez as a focal point. A better striker and I would have voted for you but I can clearly see him wasting the chances Cruyff and kalle create for him. Think if you are to score it would be from your wingers combining or not at all.
Enigma_87 said:
And you aren't facing my defensive line normally either, anchored by the GOAT DM in the game :)

The wingbacks in 5-3-2 are always a vital cog for the system. Neither of them fit the system well here, which is a problem when facing quality flanks and same quality on the other side.

If you take Brazil 2002 for example Carlos and Cafu made it possible even with a lackluster spine with Kleberson, Edmilson and to a milder extend Gilberto Silva. Neither Leo Junior or Carvajal are notorious of pulling a one man flank job. I rate Leo Junior a lot but what he brings to the table is quite different from what is needed here.

Especially with him there I also believe the inclusion of Modric is a bit of a tactical error instead of Simeone who could provide a more solid defensive platform in the midfield for 2mufc0.
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MJJ said:
I was speaking more from a styles perspective as both of them are very well suited to running with the ball and drifting wide so the need for wing backs to provide width is negated to a large extent.

If he had somebody like shearer or Charles there I would agree with you completely but I think his current setup works fine due to having two unique strikers.

From your side, I really don't like having gomez as a focal point. A better striker and I would have voted for you but I can clearly see him wasting the chances Cruyff and kalle create for him. Think if you are to score it would be from your wingers combining or not at all.
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Well that's the point really in Gomez. He's there to engage Baresi and vice versa but yes the biggest strength in attack is exploiting the space between 2mufc0 wing backs and Cannavaro/Charles. Gomez might get a chance here and there to knock the ball in the net but the main idea behind being the focal point in attack as anto said is to engage the opposition best defender. Even if I had Ruud there it would really make no difference.

Yet Cruyff and Kalle are top notch goalscorers and have favorable matchups here so yes they are the main weapon in attack - both perfectly capable of scoring in and outside the box, given space and time on the ball.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Well that's the point really in Gomez. He's there to engage Baresi and vice versa but yes the biggest strength in attack is exploiting the space between 2mufc0 wing backs and Cannavaro/Charles. Gomez might get a chance here and there to knock the ball in the net but the main idea behind being the focal point in attack as anto said is to engage the opposition best defender. Even if I had Ruud there it would really make no difference.

Yet Cruyff and Kalle are top notch goalscorers and have favorable matchups here so yes they are the main weapon in attack - both perfectly capable of scoring in and outside the box, given space and time on the ball.
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Well not really, what's going to happen (pretending this is a real game) is that baresi would probably swap players with J.charlton if he sees that he is being skinned regularly.

Saying if I had ruud instead of gomez it would. Make no difference is such a weird statement.
 
MJJ said:
Well not really, what's going to happen (pretending this is a real game) is that baresi would probably swap players with J.charlton if he sees that he is being skinned regularly.

Saying if I had ruud instead of gomez it would. Make no difference is such a weird statement.
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If Baresi was a player manager probably yes, but not the case here :) he's not a marker that would go cover the wide areas but playing as last line of defence and in central position that overlaps with my target man - Gomez. If Jack is getting skinned regularly I'd back Kalle to find the net couple of times which could very much decide the game.
 
antohan said:
This is a really weird game.

Ronaldo and Eusebio, serviced by Sir Bobby will get at least a couple here.

At the other end, I can see the frontline nullified but not the constant threat from crosses with two beasts like Vidal and Ballack attacking them.

It's a 2-1/3-2 game, just not sure which side... and then there's Buffon.
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Maybe though not as certain as you it'd be via Charlton as much as I rate him. Rijkaard (mobile, quick, intelligent) in this position would be a good choice to face up against Charlton and help protect defence.
 
Enigma_87 said:
If Baresi was a player manager probably yes, but not the case here :) he's not a marker that would go cover the wide areas but playing as last line of defence and in central position that overlaps with my target man - Gomez. If Jack is getting skinned regularly I'd back Kalle to find the net couple of times which could very much decide the game.
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In fairness, I've come to the conclusion that won't happen. Ugly as Charlton in the middle would look, that's what will happen in practice.

Baresi isn't a player manager but he is the chief organiser of the defensive line and won't just stand there all game minding a lamp post while Charlton gets skinned time and again. He did play as the left centreback in back 4s so it would suit his usual game.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Maybe though not as certain as you it'd be via Charlton as much as I rate him. Rijkaard (mobile, quick, intelligent) in this position would be a good choice to face up against Charlton and help protect defence.
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Not always Charlton, there's Modric and Baresi as well (and Junior, to be fair). In any case, if Rijkaard is busy minding Charlton that basically means the central defensive partnership is getting no protection whatsoever from the two GOATs running at them.
 
antohan said:
Not always Charlton, there's Modric and Baresi as well (and Junior, to be fair). In any case, if Rijkaard is busy minding Charlton that basically means the central defensive partnership is getting no protection whatsoever from the two GOATs running at them.
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Rijkaard is not playing on his own in the midfield tho. Both Vidal and Ballack naturally will track back. They won't stroll up the pitch like nothing is happening...
 
antohan said:
In fairness, I've come to the conclusion that won't happen. Ugly as Charlton in the middle would look, that's what will happen in practice.

Baresi isn't a player manager but he is the chief organiser of the defensive line and won't just stand there all game minding a lamp post while Charlton gets skinned time and again. He did play as the left centreback in back 4s so it would suit his usual game.
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So basically he will just override his manager's instructions then? From 2mufc0 writeup and him instructing him to move forward rather than a LCB covering and swapping with Jack - depending on where Kalle is - is a world of difference. If we're just putting players on the pitch regardless of how we want them to play it makes the whole writeup a bit useless.

He won't just stand there, he's occupied with Gomez and the exact very reason I went with a target man in this game to free Kalle to attack from wide.

As for Gomez he isn't a GOAT far from it granted. But if you look at his resume compared to Carvajal who is also facing a GOAT here in Cruyff, he won't just sit as a lamp post in the box either. He isn't a sheep by any means - from 07/08 till 11/12 he scored 28 goals or more in all comps, being chosen as Germany player of the year, Bundesliga top scorer, EURO 2012 joint top scorer with Torres. Instrumental in 11/12 Bayern season scoring 41 goals - twice as much as the next in line Robben with 19, top goalscorer in every competition he featured for Bayern that year - including the Champions league.

So yeah he'll score if he's underestimated and left completely alone in the box.
 
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Enigma_87 said:
Rijkaard is not playing on his own in the midfield tho. Both Vidal and Ballack naturally will track back. They won't stroll up the pitch like nothing is happening...
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And Modric and Varela won't give them something to think about?
 
antohan said:
And Modric and Varela won't give them something to think about?
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Neither Modric, nor Varela are really expansive going forward, but even with them in the picture you have a cluttered center of the park where we have plenty of protection and many man behind the ball.

On the wings however you don't have Junior who would be tucking in and Carvajal as a sole provider on the right. But I guess wingbacks are overrated anyways(especially in 5-3-2) and it doesn't really matter what bum you'd put there - whether he actually fits the system or has the quality to pull it off..
 
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Enigma_87 said:
Neither Modric, nor Varela are really expansive going forward
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Varela has a better scoring ratio at World Cups than either of your two CMs. 2 in 7 vs a combined 3 in 18.

You were talking long range shots with Vidal/Ballack... Well he had a cannon of a shot and brought it to the table when needed: leveller against Spain (no 1950 WC win without it) and winner against England in 1954. Had he not been injured for the semi Uruguay would have most likely beaten Hungary before ET, be it through conceding less or him getting the third out of sheer brute force of will.

Ballack scored two headers and a one on one against Saudi Arabia, USA and South Korea.

On the wings however you don't have Junior who would be tucking in and Carvajal as a sole provider on the right. But I guess wingbacks are overrated
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I've been banging on about that loads but, frankly, I'm more concerned about them stopping crosses than delivering them for a couple of forwards whose game really isn't about that.

Junior may well give you more trouble than a Cabrini through his playmaking or simply releasing Modric to foray forward like he did Falcao.
 
So I've just read an actual discussion on how Mario Gomez will take Franco Baresi out of the game.

This threads are supposed to be informative not mental.
 
No intrigue regarding who'll win in case of a draw here.
 
Both team have weaknesses, and depends on how much support from other players to mask them, to put it simply

Enigma has Mario Gomez upfront and is expected to be well-marked by Baresi and co

2mufc0 has Carvajal as a wingback, in a wingback formation that carries the most responsibility in attack and defense on the flank, having to face Krol and Cryuff at that side
And Leo Junior who is not expected to stretch the play, and is better off as a full-back than a wingback
 
green_smiley said:
Both team have weaknesses, and depends on how much support from other players to mask them, to put it simply

Enigma has Mario Gomez upfront and is expected to be well-marked by Baresi and co

2mufc0 has Carvajal as a wingback, in a wingback formation that carries the most responsibility in attack and defense on the flank, having to face Krol and Cryuff at that side
And Leo Junior who is not expected to stretch the play, and is better off as a full-back than a wingback
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Yes, ultimately that team falls apart from me at the wingbacks too. They are absolutely critical for a 352/3412 to function and the current ones severly bring down the whole team fitted with superstars otherwise. He still has a super strong central core to see him through so I was close to voting for that team regardless but I think Enigma's supposed weak player in Gomez is better covered by the fact that Cryuff and KHR are more of wing forwards than pure wingers.
 
crappycraperson said:
Yes, ultimately that team falls apart from me at the wingbacks too. They are absolutely critical for a 352/3412 to function and the current ones severly bring down the whole team fitted with superstars otherwise. He still has a super strong central core to see him through so I was close to voting for that team regardless but I think Enigma's supposed weak player in Gomez is better covered by the fact that Cryuff and KHR are more of wing forwards than pure wingers.
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Indeed, especially the latter part. With goal scoring wing forwards like Cruyff and Kalle I don’t rely that much on the service of Gomez whilst the whole flank game of 2mufc0 relies on his wing backs. Our central core is super strong and I believe we’re more prepared to the opposition than vice versa.
 
Well done @2mufc0 good game this and congrats going forward. You need to address those flanks and with that solid core you have a winner here.
 
MJJ said:
Gio will come two min after the poll has closed saying he wanted to vote for one side(the one who lost) but was busy.
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Was leading about 5-6 mind to go was the equivalent of Fergie time for 2mufc0 :(
 
Enigma_87 said:
Was leading about 5-6 mind to go was the equivalent of Fergie time for 2mufc0 :(
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What's the rule on a tie?

I thought I lost when it went 15-14 and went off. Got that bit of luck and could have gone either way.

You have a great team @Enigma_87 and was one I really wanted to avoid. And a draw is probably a fair result in the end.
 
2mufc0 said:
What's the rule on a tie?

I thought I lost when it went 15-14 and went off. Got that bit of luck and could have gone either way.

You have a great team @Enigma_87 and was one I really wanted to avoid. And a draw is probably a fair result in the end.
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Keepers, sheep committee will decide which one is better. My bet is on Julio, at least he won the CL!
 
crappycraperson said:
Who made the final vote?

I guess the result is fair since the difference in keeper should account for something as well
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Think drmuji, going by the last viewed info.

2mufc0 said:
What's the rule on a tie?

I thought I lost when it went 15-14 and went off. Got that bit of luck and could have gone either way.

You have a great team @Enigma_87 and was one I really wanted to avoid. And a draw is probably a fair result in the end.
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Cheers mate, thought you had the best team as well since last round, especially with Fenomeno in. My chance was your flanks but you can address that going forward.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Think drmuji, going by the last viewed info.


Cheers mate, thought you had the best team as well since last round, especially with Fenomeno in. My chance was your flanks but you can address that going forward.
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Honestly though i've seen few players in a line up stick out more as a sore thumb than Gomez there. Someone who is known for singlehandedly snatching defeat from the jaws of victoru. Cruyff will lose his mind creating open chances for him and seeing them go waste. Really immediately voted for the other team at the sight of him. Horrible pick.
 
Moby said:
Honestly though i've seen few players in a line up stick out more as a sore thumb than Gomez there. Someone who is known for singlehandedly snatching defeat from the jaws of victoru. Cruyff will lose his mind creating open chances for him and seeing them go waste. Really immediately voted for the other team at the sight of him. Horrible pick.
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Yeah I didn't want to post too much as I wasn't playing but the baresi will be nullified by fecking gomez shit by @antohan was laughable.
 
Moby said:
Honestly though i've seen few players in a line up stick out more as a sore thumb than Gomez there. Someone who is known for singlehandedly snatching defeat from the jaws of victoru. Cruyff will lose his mind creating open chances for him and seeing them go waste. Really immediately voted for the other team at the sight of him. Horrible pick.
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He was alright at one point and was double pick so Lahm was the priority anyway...
 
Moby said:
His theory basically applies to every big lump of shite that's ever played as a target man like Emile Heskey. Absolute nonsense.
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Heskey knows himself he's crap. Gomez ain't world beater but at least knows how to kick a ball..
 
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