So if he's starting out wide he will be cutting and running into Varela or Cannavaro, it won't be easy at all. Sir Bobby is also capable of tracking the runs of your deeper midfielder whether it be Ballack or Vidal.
The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft QF - Enigma_87 vs. 2mufc0
- Thread starter green_smiley
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In both cases I think we can agree that there is a problem with width on either side tho
Both Krol and Lahm have excellent distribution mate. I'm not so sure from where you have image of Krol being a defensive full back or a sweeper mainly, but his nominal position and probably the one he played most in his career was an all action left back supporting both the attack and defence. He is in fact a total footballer and has the pace, tactical awareness and agility to participate in both phases.
This is Lahm BTW:
You'd need Varela in the heart of midfield. Pulling him outside on the flank will create space for my midfielders to run into. If you also put Sir Bobby that deep you'll have Eusebio and Ronaldo a bit isolated up front and relying on long balls then to start your attack which is not the best use of them, not to mention my whole defensive backline(bar Lahm) excelling in the air - including Rijkaard intercepting.
Modric has a solid defensive game but you need a someone like Simeone much more here. If you put a defensive B2B, he can provide the platform for your attacking trio. As it is at the moment you have 3 playmakers in your side - Junior, Modric and Sir Bobby who liked to operate in that inside left channel and only Varela as a holder.
In our side we have Rijkaard as a holder but two excellent defensively players like Vidal and Ballack who would outmuscle and outwork your midfield if you constantly put Varela wide to help out Carvajal.
He won't be pulled out wide if Cruyff is cutting into the centre. As mentioned before Modric is perfect against pressing midfielders and would better setting up counters than Simeone , because of his technical ability he's able to overcome more powerful players and has demonstrated it consistently. And I'd like to see any of your midfielders out muscle Varela or Sir Bobby, both were tanks. I'm not asking sir Bobby to play B2b but to follow your deepest midfielder. If you have Rijkaard on Sir Bobby Eusebio and Ronaldo will have a field day, both capable of taking on Vidal or Ballack, and no matter how much you try to sell Godin he is the weak link in that back line which my strikers can expose.
As I've said Varela most likely will be engaged in the midfield battle rather than facing Cruyff when cutting in. Both will be in different zones at the time. You can't have him at two places in the same time.
I am not understanding the logic of playing a back 5 here. I think 2mufc0's side would be much better balanced with a back 4.
He provided the width.
The lines on the formation above are incorrect. Leandro did that and provided width on the right, but Brazil's left side had a bit of a merry-go-round going. In possession Junior moved to the space occupied by Falcao, who moved to the space occupied by Zico, who went into the box as Eder peeled wide.
I have a lot of time for Junior and have picked him several times, but he is a playmaker from the left of midfield, not a defence-stretching fullback like Cabrini or Facchetti.
I do agree that some people have a misconception about Junior's earlier play style probably due to him converting to midfield.
Junior can definitely provide some width. But what Junior doesn't do is run to the corner and cross into the box. He would cut inside earlier.
So this is why I didn't think Junior would work well with Shearer at all - their play styles just clashed IMO - but I do think Junior can work fine here as long as you aren't expecting running to the corner flag and crossing (which I don't think you are expecting here).
I just don't get the back 5 at all especially as it exposes Charlton a player not really well suited to the style of the rest of the side.
He provided the width.
The lines on the formation above are incorrect. Leandro did that and provided width on the right, but Brazil's left side had a bit of a merry-go-round going. In possession Junior moved to the space occupied by Falcao, who moved to the space occupied by Zico, who went into the box as Eder peeled wide.
I have a lot of time for Junior and have picked him several times, but he is a playmaker from the left of midfield, not a defence-stretching fullback like Cabrini or Facchetti.
That is a different mechanics compared to what we have on show here tho. And to me 2mufc0 needs someone who will go up and down the pitch on that side, compared to a full back tucking in.
And it will be Kalle who could easily punish them both storming inside the box or just outside it which would work in our favor.
Definitely I agree with you that a back five doesn't suit well with who 2mufc0 has on show here and is my main argument of that side not working close to their potential. Especially with the personnel at the two wing back positions.
I'm actually very wary of that. While I can't fathom the notion of three defenders against the mighty Mario Gomez, at the other end I see a midfield and defence which is very gung-ho. Wouldn't be surprised to see Sammer coming out to deal with Ronaldo dropping deep and leaving Godín facing an on-rushing Fenómeno-Eusebio combo. I love Godín to bits (and think it's funny @2mufc0 runs him down while moaning modern players like Carvajal get a raw deal) but that's decidedly not what you want him to face. You want Godín in a state of siege, not as the last man standing with tricky runners in oceans of space.
For that pair to work, you would want Sammer to stay deep sweeping up and Godín as stopper coming out to break up moves, and that's probably not a good idea either as I would expect to find too much space between the defensive and midfield line. Even with Rijkaard there, he is not superman to stop that front trio running rings around him.
Nah, I'm not going gong ho. Even if Sammer pushes up he won't get the end of the crosses in attack
He'll stay at the back and always mind Eusebio/Ronaldo. That pair will always have a spare man around them.That's why I mentioned that we'll stay compact in the back and not allow many space for 2mufc0 attackers.
By pushing up I mean naturally following Ronaldo/Eusebio if needed as they both loved to drop deep.
No that's not the strategy and wouldn't work to Eusebio or R9 strengths. I did consider playing 4 at the back but I know how discussions usually go around here and the whole thread would be about Carvajal isolated at right back.
I imagine Jack will be roughing up Super Mario while Baresi is minding Kalle a lot of the time.
To be honest in a 5-3-2 a wing back to me is more important than the RB in 4-3-3 or of sorts. Especially when playing against a 4-3-3.
From experience in drafts lately tho you put your weakest player at WB and usually there is no problem whatsoever.
I think Godin is a good defender I just didn't agree with Enigma that he's the best of his generation and I said at the start he's suited to defensive setups, and wouldn't fit so good into this team. While on the other hand all I've been hearing about Carvajal is how useless he is and won't offer anything even when going forward when in real life he's shown plenty of attacking skill.
Nah that was the idea of staring Kalle nominally from out wide where he has a shot at Charlton directly.
Gomez will be in the box as a target man and Baresi will have to mind him most of the time.
If I wanted to do that I'd have Ortiz stretching Jack wide whilst Kalle up top, but IMO Kalle exploiting that space could do much more damage and gives me a more favorable matchup along with Cruyff vs Carvajal.
It's not the "in" thing though. Mind you, with those fullbacks it's probably a good thing he has three CBs.
Spine is great, probably one of the best around, surprised Carvajal didn't get upgraded though. LWB has a fair few options left, but not RWB. Dani Alves was left to rot and leave the pool and I doubt he can get anyone better for what is a critical role in that formation.
Going through the names you've compared Godin with I just can't agree either. He was excellent for Uruguay as well as @antohan might confirm and is the outstanding defender of the generation - 10's and onwards compared to his peers in pure defensive sense.
Here he's in the right setup as well with the cream of the crop defensive players like Rijkaard, Lahm, Krol and Sammer.
On the other hand we have Carvajal playing in an unfamiliar to him 5-3-2 as a wing back and having to mind Cruyff wide who is street ahead of him as a player. I just don't see the comparison here between the two in regards to being a weakness to the team.
I agree, that's why I raised it in the previous game, that it wasn't just about Carvajal (quality) but also Junior (fit).
Playing RB and Rwb isn't that much of a difference, if anything it relieves Carvajal of defensive responsibility and concentrate on attacking which is his strength. So don't agree about this.
Yeah Dani Alves would fit in like a glove in that formation. Amoros I think is also left in the pool? There are fair few options but Carvajal isn't up to a scratch when you factor in also the attacking options capable of probing that right side.
I was missing that wc defensive midfielder last game and thought that was a bigger area of concern.
I actually have a bigger problem with Junior than Carvajal in terms of tactical fit. The issue with Carvajal is this is all-time and his counterpart is Ruud feckin' Krol!
But if you want to do singular comparisons Gomez and Ronaldo is just as big.
I disagree mate. 5-3-2 the wing backs are crucial. Always been a priority for me in the drafting process, more than compared when playing 4 men back line.
A wing back position is pretty important and requires quite a specific skillset for that formation to work.
Most just assume that you don't have to defend well as you're covered by the LCB/RCB or you don't have to provide that much width in attack either as you have two complete forwards up top, whilst in reality it's far from that. Both wing backs require to be quite effective in both phases...
Its a tricky thing with reinforcements. Personally I would probably have done the same and gone for Varela over Alves. IIRC Alves also generates some "weak on defense" comments anyway (although if you were dead set on going back 5 Alves makes sense). I prefer the Varela pick with a back 4 myself rather than picking Alves and then going with a Modric-Simeone midfield which would have felt a bit too light against some of the midfields out there.
We picked Amoros in the reinforcement round
Modric at LCM doesn't help either in terms of tactical fit.
Rarely Gomez and Ronaldo will face each other. Krol and Carvajal on the other hand..
Think 2mufc0 had first dibs at reinforcement round. Sure Amoros is not the flashiest options for a first pick, but a necessary upgrade of a position that badly needed to be upgraded IMO.
Without a shadow of a doubt. What sets him apart from the also-rans is he is a massive game-raiser. Much like Ramos actually, which is the quality I most admire from him. Godín is the better defender and not a red waiting to happen though.
Issue is though, @2mufc0 is right that he plays to his strengths in deep-sitting sides. He wouldn't work in the tiki taka Barca highlines. You are neither, but in this game you need to stay compact and can't see you doing that without pushing up. But do you want to push up against Ronaldo and Eusebio? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You are essentially banking on outscoring them, not shutting them out, because you clearly won't.
I could never complain about a Varela pick... except when your formation cries out for wingbacks, need to sort out both, and the alternatives are very very few. Particularly the ones which will scream goals/danger going forward (which Alves does) as defensively you should be fine once you get shot of Charlton.
But his worst defender, Jack, can nullify your striker while Fenomeno could easily shred your best defender.
Uhm, picking Amoros over Fenomeno would have been a horrible choice.
They don't play against each other though. Gomez will do nothing... but will keep one of your very best players busy anyway. Good deal for Enigma. You could have RvN and people would assume Baresi deals with him too. Ronaldo will have a good game, absolutely, and Eusebio an even better one IMO.
True but Ronaldo couldn’t be skipped either
It's absolutely the better pick. It's purely a question of whether you wind up having to go all the way to a final with bloody Carvajal ar RWB. The next reinforcement isn't snake, what few options he has could get blocked.
Well, yeah, knowing all players Ronaldo and Eusebio would drop deep in a packed zone, so naturally the line will push up, but not side by side. You always have to have a step or two advantage on Eusebio/Ronaldo and this is what we will have here.
We do have two favorable matchups in terms of outscoring them and the defensive talent at keeping them tight at the back as much as possible.
can assure you that's not the plan.If 2mufc wins he can upgrade Carvajal next. And its not a given he would even stick to a 352 anyway. Could easily go for a RB type and switch to 4 at the back. With Varela and Baresi the spine potent anyway.
That's the idea of having Gomez up top and occupying Baresi's attention. Baresi will be the sweeper/Libero and won't chase Kalle wide, hence the latter will be targeting Jack. I don't want to put Kalle vs Baresi up top for obvious reasons..
Agreed on Amoros compared to Ronaldo, but if Dani Alves was available it's an easy choice compared to picking Varela - in a position where 2mufc0 could've compromised.
The way i see it Ronaldo over Shearer is far better upgrade than say Amoros over Carvajal.
Defensively I think we can keep them quiet, on the counter Eusebio + Ronaldo will be lethal.
Defensively I think we can keep them quiet, on the counter Eusebio + Ronaldo will be lethal.