Lost a great driver there, but let's be honest, he's clearly not had his heart in it for some time. Ferrari didn't want him, looks like McClaren want the current world champion... the talk was of him joining Toyoto for fecks sake. That's a fall from grace if ever I saw one
The F1 Thread 2010 Season
- Thread starter EZee
- Start date
BBC are reporting that Button has joined McLaren now. Hamilton and Button will be some combo next season.
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1
Regarding Raikkonen, well he just wasn't motivated for it anymore. Ferrari could see it, so could we....he'll be missed as a driver though.
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1
Regarding Raikkonen, well he just wasn't motivated for it anymore. Ferrari could see it, so could we....he'll be missed as a driver though.
It's confirmed now, Button at McLaren
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Button joins Hamilton at McLaren
McLaren press release
Official statement from McLaren on signing Button - Planet-F1 News - from planet-f1.com
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Button joins Hamilton at McLaren
McLaren press release
Official statement from McLaren on signing Button - Planet-F1 News - from planet-f1.com
Silverstone will be something else this year with an all British team now
Still the small problem of getting Bernie to let it happen, I'm sure it will do, there's no way there can't be a British Grand Prix...too many reasons for it
The two most recents world champions, so many teams are based in England, the history etc.
I'm believing more what Martin Brundle was saying, allegedly the teams aren't happy about the number of races, so Bernie will tell them that to get the British Grand Prix they need to have that many races, and they will have to accept.
There will be a British GP i have no doubts about it.
Surprised he took 18%! And this is the current and deserved World Champion we're talking about
Gunna be tough for Jenson
Talk of Raikkonen losing motivation is absolute bollocks, sorry. I can understand the opinion from casual observers or people who don't know much about him, but it is utter nonsense.
No it isn't. If Kimi was so motivated and really wanted to stay in formula 1 he would have lowered his wage demands and taken that McLaren drive. The fact that he is perfectly happy to sit it out for the extra couple of million shows his heart isn't exactly in F1 at the moment.
I really like Kimi as a driver but the huge wages he was recieving at Ferrari have done nothing but over inflate his sense of worth if you ask me.
And I've been watching F1 for more than 20 years, thats hardly casual.
Why is it bollocks?
That was not the same Raikkonen at the end that I remember bursting into the F1 scene what 8 years ago?
There's no way for instance the season before last, he should be getting beaten by his team mate Massa. By 20+ points too
He'd still be at Ferrari if all was well Nick
All British team next season the, I guess I know who to support.
McLaren may move to their vintage Orange colour. Had it on their test cars a few years ago and looked cracking.
I doubt it, Vodafone being the principal sponsor of the team will require some red in there at some point. I expect the livery to stay similar to last seasons.
Wages weren't the issue with the McLaren contract, Turun Sanomat (hugely reliable source when it comes to Finnish drivers, especially Raikkonen) reported that the sticking point between an agreement was that Raikkonen wanted to be free to take part in events outside of F1 in his own time like he was allowed to with Ferrari and McLaren weren't ready to let him do that. He was also not keen on all the Page Ranking shit that comes with McLaren - like wire work on stage!
His motivation to race has never faltered but he wanted to be able to do things his way. Short sighted? Maybe, but his motivation in the sport is not and has not been an issue.
Oh and my mention of the view was more that I would expect it from a casual fan, and not from you and Brad who I know are far from casual fans, sorry I wasn't clear there.
Raikkonen's performance in 2008 is something I have explained on more than one occasion on here, and his problems were with the design of the car and issues with getting temperature into the front tyres because of the fundamental understeering tendencies of the F2008 and Kimi's natural oversteer driving style.
There was an article in Autosport by Mark Hughes where he spoke with Ferrari engineers just after he arrived with the team who were in awe of Raikkonen's driving, saying that the more oversteer they dialled into a car the faster he went, and that this and his feedback on the car was even better than Schumachers. Raikkonen's problems with the F2008 really began when the development of the car took things in the wrong direction for him whilst at the same time working for Massa, and it took a long while to get things back on track. This has been confirmed by Schumacher, Domenicali and Dyer.
Since the announcement of his departure from Ferrari all the engineers and technical staff have spoken extremely highly in regard to Raikkonen, themselves dispelling speculation in relation to his motivation, and even before it was announced Domenicali and Andrea Stella both said that he was driving the F60 in a phenomenal fashion and "putting it in positions it has no place being in".
Raikkonen is like the Berbatov of Formula 1, his demeanour makes him an easy target for labels like 'lazy' and 'unmotivated' but is wildly inaccurate.
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Raikkonen rejects F1 for rallying
Quotes in that article from Raikkonens manager saying that McLaren 'couldn't afford him'
Don't me wrong, I'm sure there are other reasons but it would seem Kimi's wage demands we're just too high
Quotes in that article from Raikkonens manager saying that McLaren 'couldn't afford him'
Don't me wrong, I'm sure there are other reasons but it would seem Kimi's wage demands we're just too high
Madness, absolute madness. Hamilton's going to wipe the floor with Button. You'd think a world champion would have more pride than to put himself in a position where he knows he'll be embarrassed just for the sake of a little more money.
Think it's fair to say Nick still holds Kimi in high regard!
I'm sorry mate, it sounds like a hell of a lot of excuses for me. Whether it suited his favoured style or not, he had a championship capable car underneath him, and he was unable to produce in it
I think you're blaming the impression that I and probably the majority of F1 watchers get on this 'Berbatov' demeanour situation. I think that's nonsense. I see a driver in Jenson Button who was prepared to tale a monstrous pay cut to drive in F1, and he went on to become World Champion. Kimi has walked out on F1, having been dumped from Ferrari a year before his contract actually ended, because supposedly McClaren wouldn't pay him enough... you're saying he didn't want to do the behinds the scene stuff and they wouldn't agree to let him piss about as much when he wanted... clearly the guy isn't 100% committed to his sport, and as a result he won't be in it next season. Fair enough
I'm sorry mate, it sounds like a hell of a lot of excuses for me. Whether it suited his favoured style or not, he had a championship capable car underneath him, and he was unable to produce in it
I think you're blaming the impression that I and probably the majority of F1 watchers get on this 'Berbatov' demeanour situation. I think that's nonsense. I see a driver in Jenson Button who was prepared to tale a monstrous pay cut to drive in F1, and he went on to become World Champion. Kimi has walked out on F1, having been dumped from Ferrari a year before his contract actually ended, because supposedly McClaren wouldn't pay him enough... you're saying he didn't want to do the behinds the scene stuff and they wouldn't agree to let him piss about as much when he wanted... clearly the guy isn't 100% committed to his sport, and as a result he won't be in it next season. Fair enough
1) I don't think it was merely 'a little'
2) He's joining an English team from what has become a German team, and the likelyhood is they'll have a better initial car. It's not a nonsensical move
3) He's the current World Champion, and I'm sure he has the self belief as a result to back himself against his new team mate
4) Stop WUMming
I do, but I'm not getting embroiled in a row, I can't really be bothered!
Suffice to say he won't be driving next year and that is a huge disappointment for me as I've not been a team supported in F1, rather a driver supporter. There are others I like but he was without doubt my top driver.
Vettel will be getting my main support now though! And I'll watch with intrigue the battle at McLaren, it should be interesting to see how the differing driving styles are coped with.
I don't actually see the fuss over this differing driving styles discussion. It'll be a simple job for McLaren to design a fast car, then each driver can change the wing settings for their driving style. I don't see it becoming a big an issue as everyone is making out.
The car will have certain fundamental characteristics which cannot be altered with set up changes. If a car naturally understeers it will be of benefit to drivers who like a soft front end and are generally smoother with their inputs (Jenson) whereas if the front end is pointier and the car naturally oversteers it will benefit those with a more aggressive style who like a slightly loose back end (Lewis).
Put either of those drivers in a car with the opposite characteristics and they will never be able to go as fast as they could in the car that suits them. They will be able to adapt to a certain level, but will never reach their maximum speed as they would in the more suited chassis.
Fair enough, but it was about the money. Maybe "a little" was an understatement, but the fact remains he's left the current World Champions because he wants more money.
And you know that how? The Brawn/Mercedes has just as much chance of having the better car. For one thing, it was the better car for most of last season, and secondly, where McLaren were adding new bits and testing all the way up until the end of the season - and so probably won't make huge leaps forward from where they were - Brawn had stopped taking their 2009 car forward in favour of working on the 2010 car.
If anything, actually, Brawn/Mercedes have the greater likelihood of a better car because they've had both a better base to work from and more time to work on it.
And it's a "German" team? People are saying that purely because it now looks like they'll get two German drivers in. The fact that it's a Mercedes team doesn't make it German, anymore than Ferrari is Italian or Renault is French. Neither of those two have a driver line-up dominated by their respective countrymen. On top of which, Mercedes is still going to be based in Woking, with the engines built in Woking, and run by a British team principle with Nick Fry (another Brit) working alongside him.
He's the current World Champion, yes, but does anyone in their right minds really think he's a better driver than Lewis Hamilton? Not a chance, and you've got to be insane if you think he is. Different styles and whatnot aside, Hamilton is the better driver, and frankly if McLaren have to set the car up one way because their two drivers prefer it differently then they're going to go with Hamilton every time. In the same car it comes down purely to driving ability, and that's something Hamilton has a lot, lot more of.
Go feck yourself.
The difference here is that Hamilton (like Alonso, Schumacher and the other supremely talented drivers) can drive around a problem. If his car is set up slightly wrongly, and favours Button for example, he'll deal with it. He won't like it, but he'll attempt to work around the problem in such a way as to still be competitive.
Button, on the other hand, needs everything to be perfect or he simply fails to perform. Last season was testament to that - when the Brawn was working wonderfully he took race after race after race, but when it wasn't working quite so well he just disappeared off the pace, coming home in fifth and sixth place. Does no one remember the great bitching sessions he had over the in-car radio about how poorly the car was handling? You wouldn't get that from a Hamilton or an Alonso; they'd grit their teeth and do the best they could.
Hamilton can drive around a problem yes, but he won't be as fast when driving around that problem as he would be without it, that is just a simple fact of life. He can't drive an understeering car as fast as one that suits his style, he just can't, nobody can.
I also think Button is a much better driver than you are giving him credit for in your last few posts, and either you don't like him for some reason or you just overrate Hamilton. And by that I'm not knocking Hamilton, is is definitely one of the best two or three drivers out there, but you seem to grant him god like status.
feckING GET IN !!!
That is all
That is all
I don't dislike Button, I think he's great, but he isn't anywhere near one of the best drivers on the grid. I've been pretty consistent about that. He won his first race before this season after many years of trying only because everyone else went out (when he was in a Honda), and last season he was helped massively by the car, no matter what people want to say. He beat Barichello in the same car, and that's because he's a better driver than a thirty-seven year old Rubens. Button is hardly a bad driver; he's just not one of the best.
But the fact is he's going to be playing the Barichello role to Hamilton's Schumacher, which I don't think is particularly becoming of a current World Champion.
Which I think he deserves he took a 70% pay cut to stay with the team and just won the world title. I keep reading they offered Button an average deal Jenson knew about the Merc-Brawn deal IMO I think they pushed him out.
Of all the people to be scolding with the 'sold out for money' brush, for CD to select Button... it's an odd one. I would imagine he's still paid significantly less than Hamilton. And clearly there are plenty of other reasons to be joining such a successful team
When you say it was the better car for most of last season... what you mean it was the better car the first half of the season. Hamilton would have been champion based on results in the 2nd half of the season. And of course McClaren were developing next years car. Supposedly the regulations aren't actually too different from what they've been this season, bar the headline fuel load change. It's up in the air until we see what happens over winter, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone else right now who thinks Brawn will immediately be back at the top of the pile again next season
OK, just out of curiosity, how exactly do you think his secondary status to Hamilton will manifest itself?
I'm asking because next year there is no refuelling, so the concept of preferred strategies for qualifying is gone, quali will done on fumes and the fastest guy will be at the front, no weights to account for. So the only way somebody could theoretically be given preferential treatment is to get different parts on their car, and I don't think McLaren would do that unless like this year they find themselves in a position where only one driver realistically has the chance to do anything of any use.
Button is not Heikki Kovalainen, he won't be left running round with a tub whilst Hamilton is given updates, I'm pretty sure both drivers will be given free rein to race until the time comes (if it does) that one is out of the race.
It depends where you draw the line for the "second half of the season". From Hamilton's first win (race 10 of 17) then he did score the most points, but from the race before (9 of 17) it was Vettel who scored the most. If we're going to judge how good cars next year will be on how good they were at the end of this season then I'd argue it's the Red Bulls who are in pole position.
Fact is, though, that teams who start developing their cars earlier tend to do better in the new seasons as they've put more effort into it. Both McLaren and Ferrari admit that one of the reasons they started this season so poorly was because they were developing the 2008 cars right up to the end because of the Hamilton / Massa fight. Whereas Brawn (then Honda) and Red Bull had nothing to lose and were focussing on the 2009 cars from halfway through the season.
As you say, no one knows which team will have the better car, but to say it's pretty obviously not going to be Mercedes isn't really fair, in my view. Mercedes have a lot of things going for them on the car development front that McLaren don't. If anything, of course, the four best cars on the grid next season (one using your logic of ending the season well, the other mine that they worked on the 2010 car nice and early) will be the Red Bulls and the Ferraris.
I meant it in the sense that he'll be consistently out-performed and outshone, and - talented though he may be - he'll be living perpetually in Lewis' shadow.
Brawn were developing their car right up till the end of last season. So in terms of development for the 2010 season they'll be behind McLaren & Ferrari.
I am finding it quite funny how people are bigging up the Brawn/Ferrari efforts but have yet overlooked the one team who will be fighting for the title next year & that's the Red Bull's. They'll have good odds for the Championship with the bookies i bet.
You either underestimate Button or overestimate Hamilton, I don't see it being that cut and shut for one minute.
Indeed, go Vettel!
No they weren't, where did you get that? Ross Brawn actually said that he felt the team were far enough ahead (both in terms of car development and points) to not need to focus on the 2009 car anymore. Any improvements they made were very minimal, unlike the McLarens and the Red Bulls, who were reeling out new parts for their cars. McLaren, however, were developing the 2009 car right up to the end of the season.
No one is overlooking the Red Bulls. In the 2009 thread there were plenty of people making Vettel the favourite for the title next year, and in fact in the post directly above yours I make clear mention that the Red Bulls will be forerunners.
They rolled out improved barge boards, diffuser & front wing (it wasn't used in the race though) for Interlagos.
So yes, they were developing the car right till the end of the season. McLaren started their 2010 car after the Hungary GP.
McLaren divided their resources in two teams with half developing 2009's car and the other half 2010. Whitmarsh said towards the end of the season that the 2010 car was already faster than 2009's. Not that he'd say it was going to be shit mind.
FWIW with McLaren's history the fact that the 09 car was such a dog to start with suggests 2010's should be a good one.
FWIW with McLaren's history the fact that the 09 car was such a dog to start with suggests 2010's should be a good one.
You've named two pieces of equipment that were actually used. Yeh, they made slight improvements, but they were focussing on the 2010 car. Are you trying to tell me that Brawn were furiously developing the 2009 car right up until the end and McLaren weren't?! McLaren didn't stop adding parts to their car (hence all the drama that Lewis kept getting bits that the useless shit Kovaleinen didn't) until the death of the season.
Brawn/Mercedes started solid work on the 2010 car before McLaren did, but after Ferrari (who gave up on the 2009 car really early on when it was clear it was beyond saving).
The wing was used in the free practice, makes no difference if it was used in the race, it highlights that Brawn were still developing their car.
Brawn fired up the wind tunnel twice before the end of the season to still develop the 09 car, one was around Valencia time when Rubens won & then before the final two races of the season (to see the championship through). So yeah they were still developing the car until the very end of the season.
But then he's also said that they were limited by the late change to Mercedes engines and gearbox and whatever else was forced upon them by Honda's withdrawal
Now they've been able to integrate it all better into the car, and Brawn has already said that the car will look pretty similar to the Red Bull.
It's looking like a good season next season, you've got to think it will be something of a decent four-way battle between Mercedes, Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari.
With plenty of drivers capable of winning within those teams, there could well be 5/6 decent contenders for the title
Lets hope so. Mouthwatering Ferrari/McLaren lineup couple with Red Bull and Brawn.