The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Aldo vs Skizzo

[Chesterlestreet]

Datsayev? Is that legit? @harms?

I know you can westernize Cyrillic spelling in various ways (Dostoevski versus Dostoyevsky versus Dostoevskij...and so forth) but that “t” seems off nevertheless.

So, based on that, I reckon Aldo won fair and square. *

Another thing, not match related but general: If people use the “withdraw vote” option as a “draw” option (and surely they do – I can't believe the majority of the voters here actually changed their vote), then we should probably just call it what it is.

The idea that introducing a genuine “draw” option would make more people just go for the draw out of...I don't know, laziness or indecisiveness, is probably not insane – but it doesn't matter much when the current option serves the exact same purpose anyway.

* Even though I personally would be inclined to vote for Da(t)sayev any day - he was a hero of mine, a grim looking Russian keeper with that nimbus only a grim looking Russian keeper can offer. Nielsen is utterly unimpressive by comparison.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Datsayev? Is that legit? @harms?

I know you can westernize Cyrillic spelling in various ways (Dostoevski versus Dostoyevsky versus Dostoevskij...and so forth) but that “t” seems off nevertheless.

So, based on that, I reckon Aldo won fair and square. *

Another thing, not match related but general: If people use the “withdraw vote” option as a “draw” option (and surely they do – I can't believe the majority of the voters here actually changed their vote), then we should probably just call it what it is.

The idea that introducing a genuine “draw” option would make more people just go for the draw out of...I don't know, laziness or indecisiveness, is probably not insane – but it doesn't matter much when the current option serves the exact same purpose anyway.

* Even though I personally would be inclined to vote for Da(t)sayev any day - he was a hero of mine, a grim looking Russian keeper with that nimbus only a grim looking Russian keeper can offer. Nielsen is utterly unimpressive by comparison.

I agree about the draw option over "Withdraw vote".

 

[harms]

Datsayev? Is that legit? @harms?

I know you can westernize Cyrillic spelling in various ways (Dostoevski versus Dostoyevsky versus Dostoevskij...and so forth) but that “t” seems off nevertheless.

So, based on that, I reckon Aldo won fair and square. *

Another thing, not match related but general: If people use the “withdraw vote” option as a “draw” option (and surely they do – I can't believe the majority of the voters here actually changed their vote), then we should probably just call it what it is.

The idea that introducing a genuine “draw” option would make more people just go for the draw out of...I don't know, laziness or indecisiveness, is probably not insane – but it doesn't matter much when the current option serves the exact same purpose anyway.

* Even though I personally would be inclined to vote for Da(t)sayev any day - he was a hero of mine, a grim looking Russian keeper with that nimbus only a grim looking Russian keeper can offer. Nielsen is utterly unimpressive by comparison.

No, it isn't, I don't know why he decided that it is. Datsaev is "Дацаев", ts = "ц" (Tsiolkovsky/Циолковский, for example), Dasayev's surname is spelled "Дасаев" in cyrillic, with "s" = "с" and there are no other legit way of spelling it. The only thing you can argue about is, like in Dostoyevsky, should you put another couple of "y" here, but I'm not a fan of them, tbf.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

No, it isn't, I don't know why he decided that it is. Datsaev is "Дацаев", ts = "ц" (Tsiolkovsky/Циолковский, for example), Dasayev's surname is spelled "Дасаев" in cyrillic, with "s" = "с" and there are no other legit way of spelling it. The only thing you can argue about is, like in Dostoyevsky, should you put another couple of "y" here, but I'm not a fan of them, tbf.

That's what I thought - thanks, mate.

Dasayev is how it was always spelled when he was active, as far as I can remember. With the possible variation of the y-less "Dasaev". But certainly no "t". Interesting about that "ц" letter - denoting a "ts" sound. I've wondered about that - so thanks again, I like a bit of linguistic education on the Caf (and it's a good place for it, with members from all over the world).

 

[Skizzo]

That's what I thought - thanks, mate.

Dasayev is how it was always spelled when he was active, as far as I can remember. With the possible variation of the y-less "Dasaev". But certainly no "t". Interesting about that "ц" letter - denoting a "ts" sound. I've wondered about that - so thanks again, I like a bit of linguistic education on the Caf (and it's a good place for it, with members from all over the world).

I'm not sure where I got the "t" from tbh

For some reason I put it in in there and it stuck with me. No idea why

Also, I'm in favour of something else instead of that third option. The fact that almost as many people chose to just withdraw than pick a team, is a bit frustrating. Losing side or not, it would always be better to have everyone pick a winner. I'd rather lose like I did to Theon in the final than lose by a vote with everyone not choosing

 

[harms]

I'm not sure where I got the "t" from tbh

For some reason I put it in in there and it stuck with me. No idea why

Also, I'm in favour of something else instead of that third option. The fact that almost as many people chose to just withdraw than pick a team, is a bit frustrating. Losing side or not, it would always be better to have everyone pick a winner. I'd rather lose like I did to Theon in the final than lose by a vote with everyone not choosing

Yep, a bad feeling indeed Sorry

 

[antohan]

And @antohan really don't understand the faux outrage. Non euro performances are simply not relevant and has no place in match thread. I can understand on knowing players better and the main draft thread is always there for that purpose. No one is trying to make it fairer, just avoiding stuff that anyway doesn't belong!

Anyway I lol'd

Was the point, you guys seemed to be getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.

 

[antohan]

Datsayev? Is that legit? @harms?

I know you can westernize Cyrillic spelling in various ways (Dostoevski versus Dostoyevsky versus Dostoevskij...and so forth) but that “t” seems off nevertheless.

So, based on that, I reckon Aldo won fair and square. *

Another thing, not match related but general: If people use the “withdraw vote” option as a “draw” option (and surely they do – I can't believe the majority of the voters here actually changed their vote), then we should probably just call it what it is.

The idea that introducing a genuine “draw” option would make more people just go for the draw out of...I don't know, laziness or indecisiveness, is probably not insane – but it doesn't matter much when the current option serves the exact same purpose anyway.

* Even though I personally would be inclined to vote for Da(t)sayev any day - he was a hero of mine, a grim looking Russian keeper with that nimbus only a grim looking Russian keeper can offer. Nielsen is utterly unimpressive by comparison.

At last, someone on the same wavelength. Too late Rinat deserved better Did wonders for me in the 50s and All-Time drafts.

 

[Balu]

I can leave the withdraw option out of the next poll if we all agree? I actually didn't really think about it, just copied the text for creating the poll from Edgar's post in one of the last draft matches.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Woah, that was close.

Tough luck @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard . And thanks for the votes!

Cheers mate and well played!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I can leave the withdraw option out of the next poll if we all agree? I actually didn't really think about it, just copied the text for creating the poll from Edgar's post in one of the last draft matches.

My tuppence:

I've been in favour of some kind of draw option in the past, but I don't know if we're ready for it. We probably need to tailor something which is more subtle (in one way or another) than a simple option to, basically, abstain from making a call. As it stands here and now, I'd say it's better to just go with two options – pick a winner or abstain from voting altogether.

More thinking is needed on the basic format(s) of these drafts, including voting options – but that's another dish for another day.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm not sure where I got the "t" from tbh

For some reason I put it in in there and it stuck with me. No idea why

Who'd have thought a small spelling mistake would inspire a discussion on cyrillic spelling though? The draft regulars are a surprisingly intellectual bunch when we're not arguing about imaginary football matches!

 

[Raees]

My tuppence:

I've been in favour of some kind of draw option in the past, but I don't know if we're ready for it. We probably need to tailor something which is more subtle (in one way or another) than a simple option to, basically, abstain from making a call. As it stands here and now, I'd say it's better to just go with two options – pick a winner or abstain from voting altogether.

More thinking is needed on the basic format(s) of these drafts, including voting options – but that's another dish for another day.

I'd rather someone has taken the time to come in and vote for a draw rather than not bother to provide a vote. Most people call a draw if they genuinely think its too close to call.

 

[Skizzo]

I'd rather someone has taken the time to come in and vote for a draw rather than not bother to provide a vote. Most people call a draw if they genuinely think its too close to call.

Then you sometimes start getting stupid voting patterns happening though. Someone might be up by a vote, and there's a draw option...But someone comes in and votes to tie it up, rather than vote "draw". Now that person has basically cancelled out all the votes for a winner because they "thought it deserved penalties"

 

[Raees]

Then you sometimes start getting stupid voting patterns happening though. Someone might be up by a vote, and there's a draw option...But someone comes in and votes to tie it up, rather than vote "draw". Now that person has basically cancelled out all the votes for a winner because they "thought it deserved penalties"

True, can't argue with that.

 

[Physiocrat]

Is there no way of hiding the votes until the end of the 24hrs? It would make subs difficult but managers may be able to gauge feeling on the thread and make changes accordingly.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Who'd have thought a small spelling mistake would inspire a discussion on cyrillic spelling though? The draft regulars are a surprisingly intellectual bunch when we're not arguing about imaginary football matches!

When I drink, I think – as the man said. And then there is a – depending on the nature of the drink, and my general state at the time in question – period of...if not grace, then at least something of the sort, in which I'm capable of critical thought.

That's my excuse, anyway.

And seriously, Rinat Fayzrakhmanovich Dasayev – I mean, he ain't just some random customer, is he? He's a legend, nothing less.

For me, he's in the proper legend category – players who were always somewhat enhanced by the fact that you hadn't seen 'em that often. Which you didn't back in the day. But you did see 'em – and then, when you finally saw 'em, they didn't fail to deliver. Even if it was just...something. Not necessarily a world beating thing – but something which confirmed their status. Could be just a pass, simple enough, or – in the case of a goal keeper – the way he threw himself, superior like, to just push a ball out, beyond danger.

But you could see it – that there was something there, something grand. And that's Dasayev – for me.

 

[Raees]

Is there no way of hiding the votes until the end of the 24hrs? It would make subs difficult but managers may be able to gauge feeling on the thread and make changes accordingly.

Maybe hide them until half time and then show them for a few hours at half time.. then take them away again. You'd need constant mod involvement for that but your idea doesn't seem too bad although it takes away from the addictive feeling of watching the votes rack up.

 

[Physiocrat]

Maybe hide them until half time and then show them for a few hours at half time.. then take them away again. You'd need constant mod involvement for that but your idea doesn't seem too bad although it takes away from the addictive feeling of watching the votes rack up.

Showing them at half time is a good suggestion- I do like watching the votes rack up. To reduce mod involvement maybe add the half-time score as a threadmark so everyone can always see the half time score.

 

[Balu]

It's way too much work for the one running the draft and the mods. The votes should stay visible at all times in my opinion.

 

[Physiocrat]

Maybe I think it's too easy but can't you have it so that the poll creator can only see the score until it closed. Then all it requires is for the poll creator to post the half-time score (anywhere between 12 and 16 hours in)- if games always say after 2pm BST it shouldn't be two difficult. Then the thread creator/mod can edit the OP with the half-time score.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Then you sometimes start getting stupid voting patterns happening though. Someone might be up by a vote, and there's a draw option...But someone comes in and votes to tie it up, rather than vote "draw". Now that person has basically cancelled out all the votes for a winner because they "thought it deserved penalties"

We did discuss this before.

Three options. If the draw options has the highest number of votes at the end, then it goes to penalties. Example, Manager A has 3 votes, Manager B has 7 votes and Draw option has 10 votes...the match goes into penalties.

 

[Skizzo]

We did discuss this before.

Three options. If the draw options has the highest number of votes at the end, then it goes to penalties. Example, Manager A has 3 votes, Manager B has 7 votes and Draw option has 10 votes...the match goes into penalties.

That would make sense. Obviously there's no perfect way to decide some of these, and the margins are so fine sometimes it can be tricky.

Another way would be to have the OP with graphics and team tactics. The managers get to make X number of posts, to cover any potential tactics or mismatches, and then the poll opens for 12-24 hours. People can make comments along with votes, or just choose to vote. Obviously the downside would be the lack of discussion from managers throughout the match...unless they get x number of posts after "half time" to address any points they need etc.

Or keep it as it is. Maybe this is the easiest way. After all that

 

[Pat_Mustard]

When I drink, I think – as the man said. And then there is a – depending on the nature of the drink, and my general state at the time in question – period of...if not grace, then at least something of the sort, in which I'm capable of critical thought.

That's my excuse, anyway.

And seriously, Rinat Fayzrakhmanovich Dasayev – I mean, he ain't just some random customer, is he? He's a legend, nothing less.

For me, he's in the proper legend category – players who were always somewhat enhanced by the fact that you hadn't seen 'em that often. Which you didn't back in the day. But you did see 'em – and then, when you finally saw 'em, they didn't fail to deliver. Even if it was just...something. Not necessarily a world beating thing – but something which confirmed their status. Could be just a pass, simple enough, or – in the case of a goal keeper – the way he threw himself, superior like, to just push a ball out, beyond danger.

But you could see it – that there was something there, something grand. And that's Dasayev – for me.

Alcohol-induced musings about cyrillic spelling are a reason in itself to keep these drafts going!

Skizzo and I have been mulling over the defeat via PM, and we dropped the ball by not emphasising Dasayev enough. He seems a sensational goalkeeper and we should have sold him more. @Aldo was a gentlemanly opponent as always, but if Olivella was getting stick as a random pre-68 pick we should have highlighted this Nielsen fella as well.

 

[antohan]

We did discuss this before.

Three options. If the draw options has the highest number of votes at the end, then it goes to penalties. Example, Manager A has 3 votes, Manager B has 7 votes and Draw option has 10 votes...the match goes into penalties.

We have a winner.

I'm for keeping that third option because even if they didn't vote for either side they've expressed their stance, which is useful for managers as an indicator of how many votes for either side the game still has in the tank.

 

[antohan]

For me, he's in the proper legend category – players who were always somewhat enhanced by the fact that you hadn't seen 'em that often. Which you didn't back in the day. But you did see 'em – and then, when you finally saw 'em, they didn't fail to deliver. Even if it was just...something. Not necessarily a world beating thing – but something which confirmed their status. Could be just a pass, simple enough, or – in the case of a goal keeper – the way he threw himself, superior like, to just push a ball out, beyond danger.

But you could see it – that there was something there, something grand. And that's Dasayev – for me.

That pretty much sums it up tbh.

But others will surely want some evidence here? His throws... so important for a side looking at producing quick counters

 

[Moby]

These are knockout games, so in theory there shouldn't be a draw option. As for all knockout games, you need to call a winner.

The problem with calling the result a draw if the draw option gets most votes is that a lot of games would go to penalties, and while it is fun to do them once in a while they aren't all that interesting. IMO, just get rid of that option, unless I've missed something drastic that led to the addition of that option.

 

[Gio]

These are knockout games, so in theory there shouldn't be a draw option. As for all knockout games, you need to call a winner.

The problem with calling the result a draw if the draw option gets most votes is that a lot of games would go to penalties, and while it is fun to do them once in a while they aren't all that interesting. IMO, just get rid of that option, unless I've missed something drastic that led to the addition of that option.

I agree. It's like the 'don't know' option in a survey. Penalties will get boring fast. And as so many games are tight, we'll end up with penalties too often. I reckon we've got the balance right whereby we still have the pens as a possibility on the off-chance the votes are level.

 

[Balu]

I finish this round with a draw option in the poll in all games, but will leave it out from the quarterfinals onwards. I'm not a fan of making the poll more complicated. The more voters the better in my opinion and keeping it easy should help to attract more users to the game. I'd love to see how a different way of voting works though, but I won't use it in this draft. Maybe one of you with an interesting idea can run the next draft and test it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I finish this round with a draw option in the poll in all games, but will leave it out from the quarterfinals onwards. I'm not a fan of making the poll more complicated. The more voters the better in my opinion and keeping it easy should help to attract more users to the game. I'd love to see how a different way of voting works though, but I won't use it in this draft. Maybe one of you with an interesting idea can run the next draft and test it.

Aye, this makes sense.

I have been juggling some ideas about a more complex/nuanced voting system – but I don't think any of 'em are truly viable now, given that non-mods can't create polls anymore (which is perfectly understandable, by the way – just to make that clear).

The only plausible reform of the present system would involve, I guess, a different definition (and ultimate function) of the “draw” option.

I agree with @Aldo, FWIW, regarding the nature of knock-out rounds. It doesn't make any sense to have a pure “draw” option for these – so that's another thing. In that context the present “withdraw vote” option makes more sense.

But, yeah – go with just the two options from the QFs onwards, I think that's the best route for now.